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-   -   CM4 Is Here. Let's start a thread for it and let the CM3 go on (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/all-things-technical/1268518-cm4-here-lets-start-thread-let-cm3-go.html)

James Lehmann 2nd August 2019 02:42 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Well, look what the Postman brought in the mail today. kfhkh

And only just over a week since I ordered them to my doorstep, so quite impressive turnaround.

Can't believe how cute and small the box is, let alone the contents! (2 x CM4 + 2 x CMEH)

Can't wait to get recording with these puppies - if only I was a slightly better pianist! shiee

Pablo_prz 13th August 2019 12:48 PM

Can you upload any fragment with the choir singing?

waldie wave 16th August 2019 12:13 AM

Buying 4 CM4s next week.

fred2bern 16th August 2019 03:01 AM

Received 4 one month ago and I already know the CM-3 (I have 8).
I tried them on a few live recordings as spot and they are on the same league, no problem!

Fred.

hendriks 19th August 2019 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo_prz (Post 14146802)
Can you upload any fragment with the choir singing?

I am a bit busy these days, so not on short notice. Be aware however that the front row of the choir is standing about 8m away from the cm4/cm3 stand.

Regards,
Peter.

deedeeyeah 19th August 2019 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hendriks (Post 14157789)
I am a bit busy these days, so not on short notice. Be aware however that the front row of the choir is standing about 8m away from the cm4/cm3 stand.

Regards,
Peter.

8m from the front row of a choir?! isn't this a bit much for choir spots? are you happy with the results? (nothing to do with the mics but the distance)

Stradivariusz 19th August 2019 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14158133)
8m from the front row of a choir?! isn't this a bit much for choir spots? are you happy with the results? (nothing to do with the mics but the distance)

It could work for some gregorian chant, I guess. The sound can have a lot of "climate". Curious. The orchestral samples souded very good!

hendriks 19th August 2019 10:27 PM

The CM4 in NOS with the CM3 spaced were the main microphones (CM3 230cm to the left and 230cm to the right).

The choirmusic was with orchestra, no Line Audio's as choir-spots (due to the acoustics of the church), but super-cardioïds. The choral music: Bach with really small orchestra, Rheinberger a bit more players, Mendelssohn with full orchestra before the break. Then the Brahms-Schönberg after the break.

With this in mind it can still be interesting to hear the results of the cm4 and cm3, no spots mixed, like in the sample of Brahms-Schönberg.

Regards,
Peter.

deedeeyeah 19th August 2019 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hendriks (Post 14158193)
The CM4 in NOS with the CM3 spaced were the main microphones (CM3 230cm to the left and 230cm to the right).

The choirmusic was with orchestra, no Line Audio's as choir-spots (due to the acoustics of the church), but super-cardioïds. The choral music: Bach with really small orchestra, Rheinberger a bit more players, Mendelssohn with full orchestra before the break. Then the Brahms-Schönberg after the break.

With this in mind it can still be interesting to hear the results of the cm4 and cm3, no spots mixed, like in the sample of Brahms-Schönberg.

Regards,
Peter.

thx - i mixed up things/wasn't clear that you were referring to the pics you posted: i though you were talking about using them as 'spots' at 8m (and hence was wondering not only about their distance but even more about the distance of mains then...)

regarding genre/compositions, i tend NOT to think of my gear as being suited specifically, not even any technique - (as previously mentioned elsewhere) all of my gear is 100% genre agnostic...

[in fact, i'm in the (looong) process of recording all of gesualso's libri with a somewhat experimental vocal consort and we're relying heavily on the use of closely positioned modern ldc's, of course in addition to mains (and ambis)!]

James Lehmann 27th August 2019 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Lehmann (Post 14128787)
Well, look what the Postman brought in the mail today. Can't wait to get recording with these puppies...

Finally had the chance to break out my CM4 pair and give them an airing on a Pantheon Steel hand-pan.

First impressions are very good indeed - lovely neutral sound.

I felt they required perhaps a shade more gain than some other SDCs I've worked with, i.e. up around +42dB, but not an issue for any half-decent preamp like the DAVs I have here.

One thing that is abundantly clear is I am going to need some ultra-lightweight XLR cables - any normal cable is going to pull the mics out of alignment if you're using the CMEH mic holder, just by gravity.

What are people doing for this - roll your own short lengths of M-F XLR cable extensions? If so what type of cable are you using?

PJWeitzner 27th August 2019 02:54 PM

James, why don't you try an inch of gaffer's tape to hold the cable with some slack on the xlr jack?

Peter

James Lehmann 27th August 2019 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJWeitzner (Post 14170395)
James, why don't you try an inch of gaffer's tape to hold the cable with some slack on the xlr jack?

Hi Peter,

Do you have these mics and the CMEH holders?

I can't see a gaffe-tape solution that I'd be happy with in this particular instance - these mics are just too light.

akeda 27th August 2019 08:07 PM

I use CM3s with a loose knot around the stereobar. It’s enough for them to sit in the mounts. Have also used velcro strips (when I remember to bring them...), which works fine too.

PJWeitzner 27th August 2019 08:15 PM

Yes, James, just used the OM1s this past weekend due to my other omnis being utilized on a piano. An inch of gaffer's tape about 4 or 5 inches away from the xlr connection to the top of the mic stand making sure to leave some slack to the mic. Worked great. Was up for 3 days and nothing moved!

voltronic 27th August 2019 11:54 PM

I have CM3s, not CM4s, but want to chime in that you do not need any special cables. Strain relief with a proper loop, tied off with velcro a few inches below where the shockmount meets the stand.

What I find is much more important is a properly compliant shockmount. For me, the only thing that works on individual Line Audio mics are the Rycote INV mounts, but with the 62-shore lyres mounted instead of the standard 72. For a pair mounted in a SRS Recording Shapeways mount, a standard INV with the 72-shore lyres works perfectly.

Hozay 28th August 2019 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voltronic (Post 14171318)
I have CM3s, not CM4s, but want to chime in that you do not need any special cables. Strain relief with a proper loop, tied off with velcro a few inches below where the shockmount meets the stand.

Exactly. I have a good picture of this but I'm not sure how to post it. I love my CM3s. Used them very recently on Adungu (Ugandan stringed instrument), Dobro, and Violin.

fred2bern 28th August 2019 08:52 AM

Hi all,

I use CM-3 and CM-4 with some Rycote INV-3.

Studio or live I never had a problem. Small enough to be on stage and to do what a lyre is supposed to do...
By the way I can still use the foam when I spot singers on live situation with the Inv-3.

Fred

Solodos 28th August 2019 08:04 PM

There is something strange. When there were no more capsules availables he just made a new mic. Was he working before on it? Also, how is possible a guy on Ebay is selling the CM3?

jpgerard 29th August 2019 08:06 AM

What's strange here? You run out of critical parts, you work on a different design. Roger dedicated all his time and energy on getting the CM4 done before running out of CM3 parts on top of daily production (CM3, OM1, 2MP and 8MP). He has a few re-sellers, some still have CM3's in stock.

Solodos 29th August 2019 09:36 AM

I was following the CM3 thread and you never said a thing about this new mic when you normally was telling the news you had. You told he was all the time very busy making the mics for the buyers because he never had enough stock, as they had to wait weeks to be the mic shipped. Maybe changed the things and he have more time or whathever and could do many CM3 to be ready for sell.
Anyways, waiting for a direct comparison between CM3 and CM4 when someone have the opportunity.

studer58 29th August 2019 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solodos (Post 14173471)
I was following the CM3 thread and you never said a thing about this new mic when you normally was telling the news you had. You told he was all the time very busy making the mics for the buyers because he never had enough stock, as they had to wait weeks to be the mic shipped. Maybe changed the things and he have more time or whathever and could do many CM3 to be ready for sell.
Anyways, waiting for a direct comparison between CM3 and CM4 when someone have the opportunity.

If the writing's on the wall about an impending cessation of supply ( or else price going crazy-high) of such a critical part as a mic capsule, it makes abundant sense to redirect one's energies to find a workable, minimally-different replacement....so that the marque can continue.

I'd call it sensible marketplace evolution...and Roger seems to have achieved it with very minimal changes (indeed, subtle specs improvements), so the CM4 you buy tomorrow is both functionally and audibly identical to the CM3 you bought last year. Such changes are not made trivially or on a whim, and Roger has handled the transition very responsibly indeed.

jpgerard 29th August 2019 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solodos (Post 14173471)
I was following the CM3 thread and you never said a thing about this new mic when you normally was telling the news you had. You told he was all the time very busy making the mics for the buyers because he never had enough stock, as they had to wait weeks to be the mic shipped. Maybe changed the things and he have more time or whathever and could do many CM3 to be ready for sell.
Anyways, waiting for a direct comparison between CM3 and CM4 when someone have the opportunity.

Well I think we all jumped to the CM4 thread as soon as the CM4 came out. It is not my place to go and leak information on upcoming products, releasing commercial info of this type is up to the manufacturer. Roger aimed for a smooth transition and we seem to have managed just that. However I still don't see what is strange... and yes, Roger is still mostly back ordered, that hasn't changed. If that wasn't clear before: some dealers have stocks of CM3's even if it has been discontinued, this will last until they have sold what they have left. Those mics didn't magically disappear once the model was discontinued :) I think it's best to move on, the CM4 replaces the CM3 and that's that... you can't go back in time. Should you want a CM3, go and snatch one up from the existing dealers. I have a handful of the very last ones made but that's it. So far all CM3 owners who got CM4's are happy and confirm what has been said in forums. Don't forget that this is not a "new mic", this is the CM3 with a new capsule, so it couldn't be called CM3. To be honest and transparent it has to be named something else. CM4 made perfect sense. The CM2 was also very close in tone/performance to its successor.

fred2bern 29th August 2019 02:07 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58 (Post 14173488)
so the CM4 you buy tomorrow is both functionally and audibly identical to the CM3 you bought last year. Such changes are not made trivially or on a whim, and Roger has handled the transition very responsibly indeed.


Identical, no. Not very different, yes.

Fred

TMetzinger 29th August 2019 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fred2bern (Post 14173737)
Identical, no. Not very different, yes.

Fred


Let the wild (double-blind listening testing) rumpus start!

boojum 29th August 2019 10:05 PM

Let's not lose sight of how JPG has framed this. Roger saw a parts problem looming, planned for it, re-engineered a new and very similar mic and brought it to market without any disruption. Arguing about the perceived ever-so-subtle differences without a double blind test is unfair to Roger and to us. It's a good mic, it's a good price. Rustle up ~$US250 and get a pair. kfhkh

voltronic 30th August 2019 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fred2bern (Post 14173737)
Identical, no. Not very different, yes.

Fred

Those plots look like they are taken from different versions of (the same?) measurement software. That calls into question other possible small differences in testing as well.

Until you take a CM3 and and CM4 on the same day and measure them with exactly the same test circumstances, none of us can say exactly how similar or different they are.

voltronic 30th August 2019 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boojum (Post 14174531)
Let's not lose sight of how JPG has framed this. Roger saw a parts problem looming, planned for it, re-engineered a new and very similar mic and brought it to market without any disruption. Arguing about the perceived ever-so-subtle differences without a double blind test is unfair to Roger and to us. It's a good mic, it's a good price. Rustle up ~$US250 and get a pair. kfhkh

Well said. You would think from some of the responses that we're talking about B&K 4006TL vs. DPA 4006.

jpgerard 30th August 2019 08:19 AM

We're on the right track :)

When I A/B'ed one of the first CM4 made, days before release, I thought it was close enough which was good, but liked the bass a bit better. I didn't know what to think of that because I tend to like a nice warm cozy bass response... the CM3 is a bit on the lighter side of things, the CM4 is a bit fuller but once you take proximity effect out of the test, they're once again extremely close. The slight differences in the low and high mids are pretty much irrelevant.

We're talking about very small differences here. You'd get more noticeable differences between two unmatched Oktava capsules, for instance.

Customers have agreed that you can mix and match CM3 and CM4's in a session. Placement and gain correction will make the tracks impossible to ID between CM 3 or 4 after the fact. In an A/B test, ignoring the output level difference, you'll hear if you're a skilled listener the deeper LF, LMF and HMF differences but mostly at under 2 feet. The further you go, though, the more obvious the small polar changes will become (but again - small differences).

In any case, there's no going back to the CM3.

studer58 30th August 2019 05:09 PM

I do wonder whether, if the same capsule as the CM3's was/is used in the OM-1, whether we might also (need to see) an OM-2 emerge sometime soon ?

jpgerard 30th August 2019 05:17 PM

No, the OM1 is a pure Omni, nothing in common with the CM3/CM4. To date there are no news of a potential shortage of those parts.