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Small mixers that can do 96KHz
Old 13th August 2018
  #1
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Small mixers that can do 96KHz

For certain gigs, I still have to do live mixes and those mixes are tough to do in a daw only. I’ve been looking for a small desk that has decent connectivity (Dante, Ravenna, and/or MADI) and can run at 96KHz. I’m still using a Yamaha O1V96 for this, but it’s pretty limited with what it can do- even more so when talking 96KHz. I know the Digico SD11 would be able to do this, but it’s still not that small (and it weighs a lot of I need to take it on a plane for a gig)

Any other desks that people can think of? Or ways of doing this kind of work?

Thanks

-Ben
Old 14th August 2018
  #2
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I’m not aware of any hardware mixer brand that fits the description of doing more than an O1V, smaller than SD11, and 96k.

Perhaps LV1 could be molded to fit the bill, or other iPad-driven rack mixer.

Or maybe new MOTU AVB CueMix is ok on touch.
Old 14th August 2018
  #3
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tourtelot's Avatar
First, run away from AVB. Dead as a door-nail.

I had a really hard time finding a Dante mixer that did 96k. I found some work arounds but eventually settled for using Avid Artist Mix panels and Pro Tools at 96k. 64 channels at least.

For Yamahas, like an O1V96, I think there are only enough card slots to do 16 tracks at 96K over Dante. For a DM2000, there are at least four card slots and that will allow for 32 channels at 96k but the Dante cards will cost you about 2 grand.

I believe that manufacturers will start coming out with mixers with 96k Dante possibilities but I do know that Presonus brought out their Series 3 still unable to do 96k over Dante. It needs to happen.

D.

Last edited by tourtelot; 14th August 2018 at 11:02 PM..
Old 14th August 2018
  #4
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Allen & Heath seem to keep releasing flurries of digital mixers - surely one of those 'Qu's can operate at 96k? The SQ-5 definitely does but it may have too large a footprint for you.
Old 14th August 2018
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
First, run away from AVB. Dead as a door-nail.

I had a really hard time finding a Dante mixer that did 96k. I found some work arounds but eventually settled for using Avid Artist Mix panels and Pro Tools at 96k. 64 channels at least.

For Yamahas, like an O96V, I think there are only enough card slots to do 16 tracks at 96K over Dante. For a DM2000, there are four card slots and that will allow for 32 channels at 96k but the Dante cards will cost you about 2 grand.

I believe that manufacturers will start coming out with mixers with 96k Dante possibilities but I do know that Presonus brought out their Series 3 still unable to do 96k over Dante. It needs to happen.

D.
dm2000 cannot be considered small anymore imo... - anyway, it's got 6 slots for double cards and can do 96 on all these 96 channels, depending on format though.

dm1000 (and the 02r96) is in between the 01v96 and dm2000 with two slots - still using two of them sometimes for monitoring and still waiting for something to replace them (after close to 20 years)...

[if you plan on investing big bucks, studer infinty core with dm21m/d23m and vista remote can do everything (and more) you are looking for]
Old 14th August 2018
  #6
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tourtelot's Avatar
You are right. The DM2000 is a pretty large panel, but very capable. I would like to own one outfitted with Dante cards for those really big jobs. . .

which I never do

But I really love that board.

D.
Old 14th August 2018
  #7
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That’s kind of what I thought. I do a lot of work in DM2000s, but small it isn’t (1 person needs to be able to easily transport in a case as well as fit in a car- not a truck). It’s also showing its age. Losing a band of EQ for a high pass? 96 channels without a real VCA? Not sure that tech is worth putting $$ into.

Seems like the small console market has been taken over by the low end of the industry. It’s unfortunate as there are times where quality is needed in a small package. This is why I like the SD11. Ive heard rumors of an S11, but have yet to see anything from Digico about that.


I’ll look to the A&H line. I do classical work though and need to sometimes dictate what ADCs I use. I don’t remember them having much of digital inputs (hence the comments originally about Madi- that’s what I’m currently using when possible)

-Ben
Old 14th August 2018
  #8
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if it's about remote control of preamps and the double use of their outputs for tracking and live mixing, then there are plenty of options without being limited to a specific brand/desk/protocol...
Old 14th August 2018
  #9
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There are some critical unknowns that are important to know when offering this type of advice.
1. What is the max channel count you will need?
2. Is 96K real important or will pro std. 24/48K suffice.
The QU line with A & H is 24/48K the SQ line is 96K for live SR but I am unsure about the direct recording sample rate (it is probably also limited to 24/48 since it looks a lot like the QU protocol)
Your best bet will probably be a Digigrid/Waves LV1 system. If FP32/48K and 8 in and 8 out with 2 HP outs will work for you the IOS with a 16 LV1 channel license and a lap top will do the job.
For FP32/96K simultaneous live SR and multi-tracking either a Server one or Extream server depending on how many IOX 12 channel units you will require and the number of plug ins to be deployed that will determine the cpu load for the server. A 16, 32 or 64 LV1 channel license is available again depending upon your needs. The interface control can be a lap top, or a computer with one or more 24 inch touch screens or a motorized fader option.
I have been running 20 channels of Digico "D" pres and a server one with a 32 channel lic. and two 24 inch screens. I have a rack mounted computer and a Studio One 3.5 DAW that works very well with this configuration. Connectivity is all Cat6 and USB3 for the screens and my system has been pretty much bullet proof for 18 months.
Hugh
Old 14th August 2018
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
if it's about remote control of preamps and the double use of their outputs for tracking and live mixing, then there are plenty of options without being limited to a specific brand/desk/protocol...
It has nothing to do with remote control of preamps. It has everything to do with being able to do a live mix where things change and having faders and controls that are accessible. It has to do with being able to grab an EQ or something like this while recording/mixing in the middle of a show because somebody knocked a mic on stage and I need to make a change to the mix. Most DAWs, you cannot just drop plugins in while in the act of recording. There are still places were a real mixer is definitely king.

--Ben
Old 14th August 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
There are some critical unknowns that are important to know when offering this type of advice.
1. What is the max channel count you will need?
2. Is 96K real important or will pro std. 24/48K suffice.
The QU line with A & H is 24/48K the SQ line is 96K for live SR but I am unsure about the direct recording sample rate (it is probably also limited to 24/48 since it looks a lot like the QU protocol)
Your best bet will probably be a Digigrid/Waves LV1 system. If FP32/48K and 8 in and 8 out with 2 HP outs will work for you the IOS with a 16 LV1 channel license and a lap top will do the job.
For FP32/96K simultaneous live SR and multi-tracking either a Server one or Extream server depending on how many IOX 12 channel units you will require and the number of plug ins to be deployed that will determine the cpu load for the server. A 16, 32 or 64 LV1 channel license is available again depending upon your needs. The interface control can be a lap top, or a computer with one or more 24 inch touch screens or a motorized fader option.
I have been running 20 channels of Digico "D" pres and a server one with a 32 channel lic. and two 24 inch screens. I have a rack mounted computer and a Studio One 3.5 DAW that works very well with this configuration. Connectivity is all Cat6 and USB3 for the screens and my system has been pretty much bullet proof for 18 months.
Hugh
If I want 24/48, I'd stick with what I have or any one of many desks that can do that. I need to be able to work at 96KHz when the job calls for it.

I did see the LV1 system recently in use. Not sure about certain things with it, but that could possibly be an option. I'm not a huge fan of touch screens (I prefer being able to grab a knob/fader). Probably worth looking into, though.

I don't need a huge channel count- probably 32 would be plenty for most of the stuff I do. When I go larger, I usually rent large-scale systems. That's where I usually go digico/optocore and work on a larger SD-series surface.

--Ben
Old 15th August 2018
  #12
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tourtelot's Avatar
32 inputs is not a small mixer! No matter who makes it.

32 channels of analog mixer, small footprint, with Dante I/O at 96k? Gotta say, that's a big grocery list.

Back to the DM2000 with 4x Dante cards? Still not analog grab-a-knob but maybe as close as you will get. Oh and only 24 faders "up." Plenty more in the bank. You'll need input cards as well unless you use Dante enabled stage-boxes/preamps; TIO or RIO, Grace, or? How many card slots in the DM2000? Six I think.

How about a 32 input mixer with analog direct outs to a Dante (analog to Dante box) Ferrofish maybe. Maybe a Presonus then (although while I am a fan of my SL244AI mixer, I am NOT a fan of Presonus. Oh and Dante is fine but tops out at 48k and don't expect that the ever change. I tried.)

A32 Dante – Ferrofish-EN

Or any 32 analog desk with direct outs into a Dante converter.

Whew!

D.
Old 15th August 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
There are still places were a real mixer is definitely king
you get all my support for this!

i'm mixing on 'real' desks (analog or digital) with tons of knobs and faders...

p s. maybe i couldn't get my message across in my previous post: there are a few remotely controllable high defintion preamps available that could be used for high resolution recording and (with an additional sample rate converter) for lower resolution mixing on a desk of choice.
Old 15th August 2018
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
32 inputs is not a small mixer! No matter who makes it.

32 channels of analog mixer, small footprint, with Dante I/O at 96k? Gotta say, that's a big grocery list.

Back to the DM2000 with 4x Dante cards? Still not analog grab-a-knob but maybe as close as you will get. Oh and only 24 faders "up." Plenty more in the bank. You'll need input cards as well unless you use Dante enabled stage-boxes/preamps; TIO or RIO, Grace, or? How many card slots in the DM2000? Six I think.

How about a 32 input mixer with analog direct outs to a Dante (analog to Dante box) Ferrofish maybe. Maybe a Presonus then (although while I am a fan of my SL244AI mixer, I am NOT a fan of Presonus. Oh and Dante is fine but tops out at 48k and don't expect that the ever change. I tried.)

A32 Dante – Ferrofish-EN

Or any 32 analog desk with direct outs into a Dante converter.

Whew!

D.
Doug- read what I actually wrote. 1 - small is footprint. You’re not moving a DM2k by yourself in a case. And definitely not putting anything else in the car with it. 2- 32 is a small count. Heck, my O1V, x32/M32, and a bunch of other desks do 32. I never said I want 32 analog inputs (and the DM2K is only 24 analog). Actually quite the opposite- I want MADI and/or ip audio (Ravenna or Dante). The S21 does more than this with cards for $7K, but it’s big. The SD11i or B does 80 inputs in a 19” form factor. I own lots of pres, and other gear. I can do without a stagebox if necessary. Remote control of the pres is not really necessary either. If I’m using my Pueblos, there is no remote in use.

-Ben
Old 15th August 2018
  #15
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Now that you clarified "up to 32 inputs" the Extream server package that includes the Max server, LV1 lic. and a small 8 channel motorized fader interface for apx $4,000. will be necessary. There are many possibilities for stage box input & output including Digico "D" pres and other related gear but I have found the ability to view and manage both live sound and my multi-track DAW recordings on 24inch touch screens a wonderful thing. The biggest shortfall of the Waves system is the fact that only limited WI-FI control is available at this point. Cat 6 & USB 3 for touch screens are the connectivity.
Hugh
Old 15th August 2018
  #16
Gear Maniac
A RME Digiface Dante (not yet available) plus hardware controller may be what you are looking for.

RME: Digiface Dante
Old 15th August 2018
  #17
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tourtelot's Avatar
No Ben, I really did read what you wrote. But I also made the assumption (there's that word again) that you wanted a, let's say, analog style panel, with faders and knobs You know? Rows of knobs. Lots of panel have fader banks. You could have one fader "up" and 128 banks of single faders and have a "small footprint" and 128 channels. A 32 channel "analog style" panel with 32 faders "up" will (may?) give you rows of knobs but it won't be a small footprint.

So I guess that I'm still merely confused about what you are looking for.

D.
Old 15th August 2018
  #18
Dear Manufacturers:

I would like a standalone mixer with DANTE and MADI inputs (or option cards) at 96kHz with 8 flying faders and one master fader and mute and solo buttons. 64 digital inputs, and a few analog input/outputs and headphones. One set of knobs for pan/EQ.

Think kinda like Artist Mix but without a computer. I just want to plug in and mix. Not interested in a clumsy one-channel-at-a-time DANTE monitor. Ya'll already have the digital infrastructure. Just make a small box.
Old 15th August 2018
  #19
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So is the Digico SD11i the answer here? Seems pretty small, does 96k? $15k? Plus peripherals? You'll still have to "page" and "layer" etc etc, but is that avoidable anymore?
Old 15th August 2018
  #20
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Plush's Avatar
Just go all analog.
Old 15th August 2018
  #21
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Just go all analog.
And hire that strapping young novice to carry 350' of 32 pair copper snake with the transformer splits to make certain that there are no ground loops (and there will be anyway.) Oh, and hire a fork lift as well.

No thanks!

D.
Old 15th August 2018
  #22
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
Doug- read what I actually wrote. 1 - small is footprint. You’re not moving a DM2k by yourself in a case. And definitely not putting anything else in the car with it. 2- 32 is a small count. Heck, my O1V, x32/M32, and a bunch of other desks do 32. I never said I want 32 analog inputs (and the DM2K is only 24 analog). Actually quite the opposite- I want MADI and/or ip audio (Ravenna or Dante). The S21 does more than this with cards for $7K, but it’s big. The SD11i or B does 80 inputs in a 19” form factor. I own lots of pres, and other gear. I can do without a stagebox if necessary. Remote control of the pres is not really necessary either. If I’m using my Pueblos, there is no remote in use.

-Ben
You should look into the A&H dLive C1500, it's 19" rack mountable, manages 128 channels at 96k, sounds pretty good, does have dante or even a madi card if I'm not mistaken. You could choose C class mixrack/stageboxes or S class ones, depending on your needs of port expansions/cards, redundancy and budget.

They do also have different stageboxes sizes to fit every needs. It has DCA (of course), channel spills (very useful with only 12 physical faders, and other cool feats.
New preamps cards should be avalaible soon as well (prime cards, thought for classical music in mind apparently), although is not really one of your needs.

More important for you is to know that the regular stageboxes (which also sounds good) have an active circuit when engaging the PAD (made to go line in from your preamps or other line level signals) that helps preserving the performance (using a correct impedance instead of only padding the signal).. It works great indeed and sounds very good, unlike most pad in other pieces.

Should cost less than the sd11.

And with this rack it will be a breeze to lug around, although also in regular racks should be portable and flyable.
Flipcase fur Allen&Heath dLive C1500 mit CDM32

check the video on youtube.. Pretty clever solution imho.

Anyway A&H also have faderless solutions with two touchscreens and a mixrack, although this is not my preferred way of working.

At the moment I can't think of any other mixer that has this array of features, so flexible and with a fantastic workflow (that you could arrange to your specific needs), that sounds great and with a price that is VERY reasonable for what is it and offers.

I hope this helps,

good luck with your search,



Cheu

Last edited by cheu78; 15th August 2018 at 08:52 PM.. Reason: Typos
Old 15th August 2018
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
And hire that strapping young novice to carry 350' of 32 pair copper snake with the transformer splits to make certain that there are no ground loops (and there will be anyway.) Oh, and hire a fork lift as well.

No thanks!

D.
i'm with you on that: it's been a while since i took my a800 on the road - never again!
Old 15th August 2018
  #24
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Plush's Avatar
I always work with a rockin' crew and we set up quick. Usually 3 other guys are with me. Never ANY noise on any input or output.
Old 15th August 2018
  #25
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
3 other guys are with me.
I am guessing that three AEs is a luxury that very, very few of us on this blog have. I am lucky to get my girlfriend to put stands up and tape down (Cat5) wire. She is actually a really good AE as far as it goes and can over/under 100' cables like a champ.

D.

No noise on my rig either; digital from the preamps back.
Old 15th August 2018
  #26
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A little bit off the wall here, but the new Metric Halo 3D stuff will do what you want, albeit with their own proprietary protocol. It’s not uncommon for people to be doing FOH mixes with daisy-chained ULN-8s.

On the other hand, they just released 3D, and it may take a while longer for it to stabilize. It was a complete overhaul for them. Pretty sweet, though.

If you don’t need network access to it, those Zoom LiveTrack mixers are great for doing very small scale FOH stuff. Compact, cheap and cheerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
For certain gigs, I still have to do live mixes and those mixes are tough to do in a daw only. I’ve been looking for a small desk that has decent connectivity (Dante, Ravenna, and/or MADI) and can run at 96KHz. I’m still using a Yamaha O1V96 for this, but it’s pretty limited with what it can do- even more so when talking 96KHz. I know the Digico SD11 would be able to do this, but it’s still not that small (and it weighs a lot of I need to take it on a plane for a gig)

Any other desks that people can think of? Or ways of doing this kind of work?

Thanks

-Ben
Old 15th August 2018
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
No Ben, I really did read what you wrote. But I also made the assumption (there's that word again) that you wanted a, let's say, analog style panel, with faders and knobs You know? Rows of knobs. Lots of panel have fader banks. You could have one fader "up" and 128 banks of single faders and have a "small footprint" and 128 channels. A 32 channel "analog style" panel with 32 faders "up" will (may?) give you rows of knobs but it won't be a small footprint.

So I guess that I'm still merely confused about what you are looking for.

D.
Even in large format consoles, there isn't much that does all of that. I'd say the Soundcraft Vi series is probably the best possibility for that. the top end one has 32 faders if memory serves and channels break out in a really convenient fashion. Most desks have fewer faders and lots of layers. that doesn't really bother me as I've got 20 years of dealing with that by now. It's just part of the job, really...

To reply to a few other posts. No analog- too big and too much of a pain. Analog is great in the studio, but I don't want to ever deal with another analog desk in the field again.

The SD11 may end up being the best bet. It's only real issue is weight and depth for when I travel. I'd prefer not to spend that kind of coin, but if that's what needs to happen, I'll save a bit longer and get that. I'd rather spend money on the proper tool for the job.

The Waves is certain a possibility as well- I was pretty impressed with the build for it I saw when I traveled through Milwaukee this spring. I'd have to put hands on it, though, to see how it really works for me.

I'll also have to look at the A&H rig. Don't have a lot of experience with their higher-end stuff.

Not sure any of the interface/controller things are really going to cut it for me unless it has a good sounding and flexible (even while recording) interface. EQ, auxes, etc... are a necessity. Totalmix is fine, but not necessarily the cleanest way to put together a mix. Not sure what Metric Halo is doing these days- not sure I'd want to deal with their reliability and support though. Stuff has to work- always - and support must be easy to reach if there's a problem. That hasn't always been the case with them.

--Ben
Old 17th August 2018
  #28
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huub's Avatar
The Digico S21 is very light and small with a lot of faders for a small mixer.
You can stick in a 64 channel dante card.
I use it when I need a small and light mixer.
(way more portable than a DM1000)
I would not enjoy mixing music on it I have to be honest.
But I would not enjoy that on an SD11 either.
Faders are a bit better on the SD11, user interface is imho better on the S21.

Huub
Old 17th August 2018
  #29
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Adebar's Avatar
There are high class small analog mixer. So the recomentation of Plush is worth to think about.

If it has to be all digital then I recoment the Midas Pro1. It Supports 96k and for me it was by far the best sounding digital mixer for live sound I ever used.
Old 18th August 2018
  #30
Why not just stick with the Yamaha O1V96 and route to some outputs what you want to record on a dedicated separate recorder.

The other option is buy a Behringer X32 (or even a cheap XR18 if you can live with "only 18 channels", with the X-Touch and a computer over USB)
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