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drum perspective - listener or drummer?
Old 23rd October 2002
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

drum perspective - listener or drummer?

drum perspective - listener or drummer:

What main factor or factors do you use to deternine if you are going to mix the live kit from the listener's or drummer's perspectives?

For me, I usually ask the band (and drummer) how they imaging seeing themselved laid out between a pair of headphones - even the recording inclined can get this analogy, and they basically tell you the basic mix you need to go for - and you can then arange some of your mics accordingly.

Usually the drummer's are pretty 50/50 on choice of perspective, which leads me to the question -

If you have the option to mix the kit as you wish, why would you chose one perspective over other?

For me, if things are an open in a room ambient vibe - I will often opt for listener's perspective so that you can have the feeling of sitting a few feet away from a band.

Yet when it's louder rock based stuff, people usually agree that you need some sort of kick and snare down the middle, and with that aside - I have been doing really well with a pair of hypercards as OHs panned listener's perspective - at least for a trio that can get rockin...
Old 23rd October 2002
  #2
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
I do drummer perspective. Hats on the left, ride on the right. Why? It's easier to air drum.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #3
Lives for gear
 
davemc's Avatar
 

diito Jay, funny this always comes up does it make much diff, I mean what do you do with a lefty....I normally swap it around for them... funny huh
Old 23rd October 2002
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

I think it matters more about what the mix needs that the details about the drummer than the listener probbably doesnt know are care about,

For me I often record drummers who really change their pocket all over the kit - and usually have a 2nd smaller snare to the left of the hat.

It is often a concern to try and root the balls of the drums to the center to leave some space for guitars and whatnot, and give the whole thing some punch.

I really have to say it totally has to do with the band at hand, and then the sounds that you came away with after tracking and making what you got work the best It can for your mix...
Old 23rd October 2002
  #5
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
It's pretty obvious for me. Especially during TV broadcasts or film and video shoots...

Audience and/or camera perspective is a must to keep the live experience solid. I even hold that rule on live radio broadcasts that don't reference to visual images! Hey, I wanna hear it like I'm in the best seat in the house. What's wrong with that?

I got a simple rule...

Drummers perspective in the studio.

Audience perspective on all live events.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #6
Gear Addict
 

I also vote for drummers perspective in the studio and will agree with audience for anything live or with video. My studio partner insists on listeners perspective always - we've agreed to disagree.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #7
I mix for listeners perspective
Old 23rd October 2002
  #8
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

listeners perspective.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 

I wouldn't put a pianist left hand (low end of piano) in the right speaker (if I were doing a wide stereo spread on piano), why would I put a drummers? Though many times, it's creative choices not whether you are looking at the band or sitting behind the kit.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #10
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Tim L's Avatar
 

I've gone back and forth on this for studio recordings but I mostly like mixing drums from the drummers perspective for a "righty" and audiences perspective for a "lefty". It just seems more natural for the tom's to roll from Hi left to Lo right.

Live's a different story. I haven't dabled in to much live work really, just not my thing... don't get me wrong , I've got allot of respect for a good live engineer. Anyway, when you see a band on stage you get visual cues that the brain expects to be supported by the audio. It just seems strange having the sound reversed to what you are seeing in front of you. The audio should support the visual... audience perspective.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #11
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
I wouldn't put a pianist left hand (low end of piano) in the right speaker (if I were doing a wide stereo spread on piano), why would I put a drummers? Though many times, it's creative choices not whether you are looking at the band or sitting behind the kit.
well, i think such a stereo spread on something like a piano is fairly unnatural unless it was a SOLO piano kinda track, like just piano and voice... even still, i wouldnt do a stereo spread on frequency....

i generally like to put those kind of elements to where they would be present on "stage"... like off to the left or right, or if its the focal in the middlish area.

i also dont pan hard on drums either keeping the soundfield fairly tight yet not fully mono.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #12
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
I wouldn't put a pianist left hand (low end of piano) in the right speaker (if I were doing a wide stereo spread on piano), why would I put a drummers? Though many times, it's creative choices not whether you are looking at the band or sitting behind the kit.
In a live situation, chances are the piano lid would be opened towards the audience. In this case, the left hand would be in the left speaker.

Again, in a live setting, especially a video or film shoot, you would put the drummers left hand (or left side of the kit) in the right speaker to be visually and aurally correct. Most people want to hear things as they see them. This is a good thing, not a bad one, right? Who would enjoy hearing a hihat in the right speaker while they're viewing the drummer playing it on the right side of the screen? Perhaps some may not mind... I don't get it, but that's just me.

I totally understand where you're coming from, if there's no visual to the audio. Mix it as you like it. But what do you do when there's a visual production? I guess you can make the creative choice to flip the soundscape around, until the director of the film or video starts freaking out because the sound doesn't match the visual. I got an idea, ask the director to shoot the whole video from the drummer's perspective. Now, you got it all covered. It's a win win situation.
Old 23rd October 2002
  #13
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Knox's Avatar
 

I understand why you would do that for video.
Old 24th October 2002
  #14
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davemc's Avatar
 

But again from the stage view for a 4 piece.

G1 Drums Bass
--- G2/Vox

We would not put the bass past where the drums stop and only on audience right? Although I do not mind panning things around.

The drums should stop around 10am and 2pm then.
Old 24th October 2002
  #15
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e-cue's Avatar
 

I'm an "ex"-drummer. So, drummer's perspective, if the drummer is right handed that is. (big deal, just hit the L-R button on the... oh yeah, your board probably doesn't have that....)heh
Old 26th October 2002
  #16
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

well i never understood drummers perspective simply due to the fact that audio is limited to the plane between the two speakers and "air drumming" only works with headphones [which you can always wear backwards]... i dont think i have heard a recording where the floor tom goes out in front [to the listeners side] but almost always goes back in the soundfield.

so as a listener... i see a soundstage where i would be facing the drums, not playing them.
Old 26th October 2002
  #17
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
i dont think i have heard a recording where the floor tom goes out in front [to the listeners side]
Well you clearly haven't lived then.

I've always thought the best place for a huge tom fill was.....on somebody else's record.

"dubba-dubba-dubba cha" <- [troggs tape quote]
Old 26th October 2002
  #18
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turpin




"dubba-dubba-dubba cha" <- [troggs tape quote]
This thread needs a f uc kin' 12 string, that I do know...
Old 27th October 2002
  #19
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith


This thread needs a f uc kin' 12 string, that I do know...
...that and a little pixie dust
Old 27th October 2002
  #20
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

My first instrument (though I never mastered it) was drums. So, I've always been a drummer's perspective kinda guy. If anybody ever questions it I just tell them the drummer is left handed.
Old 27th October 2002
  #21
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Charles Dye
My first instrument (though I never mastered it) was drums. So, I've always been a drummer's perspective kinda guy. If anybody ever questions it I just tell them the drummer is left handed.
Charles,

Would you do it drummer's perspective if the audio is married to a live video or film?
Old 27th October 2002
  #22
FX smörgåsbord user
 
Charles Dye's Avatar
 

No, actually when mixing to picture I try to keep the panning similar to the way the musicians are standing on the stage.
Old 16th January 2003
  #23
Here for the gear
 

[There's always someone watching and listening at the same time. At least I believe so. ]

Originally posted by Remoteness
Quote:
In a live situation, chances are the piano lid would be opened towards the audience. In this case, the left hand would be in the left speaker.

Again, in a live setting, especially a video or film shoot, you would put the drummers left hand (or left side of the kit) in the right speaker to be visually and aurally correct. Most people want to hear things as they see them. This is a good thing, not a bad one, right? Who would enjoy hearing a hihat in the right speaker while they're viewing the drummer playing it on the right side of the screen? Perhaps some may not mind... I don't get it, but that's just me.

I totally understand where you're coming from, if there's no visual to the audio. Mix it as you like it. But what do you do when there's a visual production? I guess you can make the creative choice to flip the soundscape around, until the director of the film or video starts freaking out because the sound doesn't match the visual. I got an idea, ask the director to shoot the whole video from the drummer's perspective. Now, you got it all covered. It's a win win situation.
Old 3rd February 2003
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
alfonso's Avatar
 

hello,

i must say first that i don't work for others, i'm mainly a musician
and my studio procedures are taylored to my personal needs, so
i'll put myself in the clothes of a listener to answer.

as a listener (i never stopped to be!) these are my preferences and thoughts:

a listening experience needs a listener's perspective. the contrary is very irritating, expecially for those who "know" what they are listening to. of course an engineer can tell that the drummer was lefthanded....but it's a trick, and lies are always dangerous for reputation.

panning piano notes is terrible imo, totally unnatural. of course such a rich instrument needs a detailed and large placement in space, so the reverberation for the studio take must "reflect" well the desired space. to be creative, i can imagine a slight stereo image of the instrument itself, placing two mics not too near,one pointing the strings at the side of the keyboard and the player, the other pointing them at the other end. the vibration that the hammer induces to the strings from one side spreads its energy along the string and reaches the other end in a certain time, small time...but time. and the sound near the keyboard is very different from the sound at the other end.
for the listener these two sounds and their distance are a part of the "reality" of the sound immensely more than the abstraction "left hand-left side/right hand-rightside".

sorry, i know it was a drum topic...but the "stereo" piano keys is one of the things i hate more...
Old 3rd February 2003
  #25
Here for the gear
 



As for piano... just thinking in the classical sense tells me where its at. Claire d'Lune.

Old 3rd February 2003
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally posted by dean the dream


As for piano... just thinking in the classical sense tells me where its at. Claire d'Lune.

I'm sorry, I'm not fimiliar with Claire's work or sound. Can you elaberate for me please?
Old 3rd February 2003
  #27
Here for the gear
 



Clair d'Lune. Mistake on the spelling, drop the e.

Composition by Claude Debussy. Classical piano composition.

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