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New Sound Devices recorders!
Old 9th September 2019
  #541
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DirkP's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Excellent video! My biggest takeaway is the M Series can't use the float recording. Makes sense......

Looks like the old recorders are about $100- reduced. Honestly I don't see where the new version is worth a change over for music recording......

Location guys are gonna love these!
In Germany the old prices remain the same while the new ones are more expensive. Maybe this will change when the new ones are available.

Thomann:
MixPre 3: 769,-
MixPre 3 II: 799,-

I bought mine just days before the new ones were announced.
Old 10th September 2019
  #542
Gear Guru
Honestly I buy gear to keep it and the MixPre 6M is still a bargain. I have confidence that the software will be updated which is the most important thing.

Maybe even more of an issue since they have invested seriously in the product
I was worried they might abandon for Scorpio.....
Old 11th September 2019
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Maybe even more of an issue since they have invested seriously in the product
I was worried they might abandon for Scorpio.....
I think they've established Scorpio as the "professional" tier, with MixPre being the prosumer tier. They just released another Scorpio model today, in fact, the new 833.
Old 12th September 2019
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Does this make it 3 or more years old (as a viable patent concept ?)
Not unreasonable for turning a patentable concept into a realisable product. This assumes that one (which one?) of the embodiments described in the patent is one that is actually incorporated in the production MixPre II.

The interesting thought is that ADC chip-makers could readily implement a similar scheme as a "system on a chip" for general use. There is already a lot of DSP following the multi-bit digitiser in the current ADC chips so no stranger in that department. I would expect it to improve performance, efficiency and cost. It might even enhance the prospects of a revival of AES-42 microphone systems ...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #545
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljisaacs View Post
You get the full 142dB dynamic range at the same instant. This is achieved with multiple ADCs with more than one preamp in front of each one.
The MixPre-II Mic EIN is -130dBV and its maximum mic input level before clipping is +12dBV thus you have a dynamic range of 142dB. The 142dB dynamic range is mapped such that the maximum mic input signal (+12dBV) does not exceed 0dBFS in the multistage ADC circuit. The 32-bit output of the ADC is then converted to 32-bit float and all gain is applied digitally from there in the 32-bit float domain where you can boost signal by hundreds of dB without clipping the recorded file.

Paul
Is that EIN noise spec a small band like 1K wide or can we say maybe a 100 KHz band? That would drastically alter the results.

I am wondering if this is theoretical dynamic range without accounting for Johnson noise, etc, or an actual technical breakthrough.

A long enough cable is going to be way above that noise floor anyway in terms of its own noise.

Does the new Mix Pre design somehow account for quantization errors of very small audio signals just above the noise floor?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #546
The instantaneous dynamic range of a floating-point sample (just the math) is about 144 dB. The complete system reaches that dynamic range only with a +12 dBV input... except it doesn't really, because dynamic range is usually calculated from the highest spectral spur, not from the noise floor.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #547
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Is that EIN noise spec a small band like 1K wide or can we say maybe a 100 KHz band? That would drastically alter the results.

I am wondering if this is theoretical dynamic range without accounting for Johnson noise, etc, or an actual technical breakthrough.

A long enough cable is going to be way above that noise floor anyway in terms of its own noise.

Does the new Mix Pre design somehow account for quantization errors of very small audio signals just above the noise floor?
I hope "Johnson noise" isn't what I think it is.......
Old 4 weeks ago
  #548
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
I hope "Johnson noise" isn't what I think it is.......
LOL. The term Nyquist Noise is also acceptable, and a lot more PC sounding.

My vague understanding is it is small noise added to the signal from passive components, caused by heat. For example a resistor is a classic example. A little bit of the energy gets lost as heat, and somehow that makes noise.

A carbon composition resistor also for example has a lot more noise than carbon film or metal film resistors. Also some actual THD at higher levels, which could be part of the mojo in old tube gear.

Fun stuff!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #549
Gear Guru
Wow "Johnson noise" made me smarter...... Thx Monkey!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
LOL. My vague understanding is it is small noise added to the signal from passive components, caused by heat. For example a resistor is a classic example. A little bit of the energy gets lost as heat, and somehow that makes noise.

A carbon composition resistor also for example has a lot more noise than carbon film or metal film resistors. Also some actual THD at higher levels, which could be part of the mojo in old tube gear.
Yep, Johnson or Nyquist noise is a thermodynamic thing, and proportional to the source resistance (this can be electrical or acoustic) and absolute temperature (degrees Kelvin). A number called Boltzmann's constant also figures. 0° Kelvin equals no Johnson noise, but maintaining a microphone (and the performers) at this temperature has certain practical problems ...

Now add to this noise generated by any current flowing in this resistance. This is "shot" noise, arising from the irregularity of the the electron flow from atom to atom. This is a statistical thing ...

Then there is "1/f" or flicker noise (sometimes called "excess" noise). This tends to arise from imperfections in the conducting medium. Carbon composite resistors have this in the irregularity in the contact between the bits of carbon, which is why carbon composition resistors (cheap to make) are noisier than metal film. (A carbon compound resistor is not too far removed from a carbon microphone but with the granules more tightly pressed together - yes they could occasionally work like a microphone). Valves also had irregularities in the cathodes and past the various grids - screens in particular had "partition noise" when part of the anode current went down this path instead), and depending on the quality of the construction of a transistor, they could also exhibit 1/f noise. These days, "1/f" noise is mainly exhibited in capacitor microphones.

But for most of us "remote" types, the noise floor is dictated by the environment in which we are trying to record. So, 142dB? This would be needed in trying to resolve your heartbeat while standing next to a jet engine in a anechoic chamber. Well, somebody's got to do it ...

(My celebration of Post No. 777!)

Last edited by panatrope; 4 weeks ago at 08:09 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #551
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monkeyxx's Avatar
@ panatrope brilliant post! and also funny. thanks for sharing that. that's a very lucky number also haha.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #552
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
(My celebration of Post No. 777!)
That's 101 more than the sign of the devil. Coincidence?

D.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #553
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
That's 101 more than the sign of the devil. Coincidence?

D.
so the sign of the devil is 676?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #554
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
The instantaneous dynamic range of a floating-point sample (just the math) is about 144 dB. The complete system reaches that dynamic range only with a +12 dBV input... except it doesn't really, because dynamic range is usually calculated from the highest spectral spur, not from the noise floor.
Thanks so I guess we can say that Sound Devices is playing the Nice Specs Game Wink Wink.

When you say highest spectral spur what are you referring to? I'm trying to learn terminology.

EDIT: I think I got it. If you map the noise you look for the highest peak and measure around that frequency.

I still don't think that's fair though. If it's a full band recorder you should measure full band noise as an average or something, RMS? total noise power over the whole audio band?

Last edited by monkeyxx; 4 weeks ago at 07:27 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
That's 101 more than the sign of the devil. Coincidence?

D.
Dreamliner coming up ...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #556
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
But for most of us "remote" types, the noise floor is dictated by the environment in which we are trying to record.
This is a long standing misconception that I see repeated again and again. But noise counts up, so when the noise floor on location is, say, 25 dB, any self noise from the mic to conversion chain will count on top of that. So even in noisy environments an extra low noise mic will give an advantage, even if it will be relatively modest. The idea that you will not hear self noise because environmental noise will be higher is false.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #557
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Sorry, let me replace "dictated" by "dominated" which better expresses the situation. Of course the noise sources will add, but what is the point at which a perceived increase occurs in real world circumstances?

Otherwise, as a generality, I do not resile from the idea I expressed.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #558
Lives for gear
There's also the matter of the spectral content/spread of any noise...does it lie in the zone where the ear is most sensitive, is it predominantly subsonic rumble or hissy, is it constant or periodic, narrow or broad band ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #559
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

Sound Devices Paul Isaacs explains

Talks about the new MixPre II and the 833
Old 4 weeks ago
  #560
AB3
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Did I miss it John, or did Paul forget to mention the 32 bit float processing in the MixPre II series? Even so, Paul is a great spokesperson for SD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Sound Devices Paul Isaacs explains

Talks about the new MixPre II and the 833
Old 4 weeks ago
  #561
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
Did I miss it John, or did Paul forget to mention the 32 bit float processing in the MixPre II series? Even so, Paul is a great spokesperson for SD.
I have not watched it all the way through yet. I’m roaming on a mobile in Germany at the moment (and stuck as the car “blew up” on the autobahn and I waiting for it to be fixed).

I think Paul posts here (or SOS) as I have seen him answer questions personally.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #562
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Don S's Avatar
 

I just ordered one and am curious to put it through it's paces! I'll be using it with the 702 as backup but it will have to be an analog backup.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #563
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Don S's Avatar
 

First impression is that it's a solid machine! For some reason, I expected more plastic. Indeed there is a lego wheel around the headphone jack. Battery sled is a joke, even the L-mount, and no 88.2 sample rate. When your manual says "44.1-192", a pro audio engineer assumes that 88.2 would included in that range. Sadly 48.048 is more popular.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #564
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Finally used mine in anger on a remote beach session. I was kind of blown away.

Super low noise floor on the front end, HP amp easily drives my AKG K702. Flawless, smooth, intuitive workflow and reliability.

Very impressed. Haven't mixed down the tracks yet but playback sounds great on big speakers too.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #565
Gear Guru
Try Wingman if fou haven’t. Metering and transport is really an improvement
Old 3 weeks ago
  #566
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Try Wingman if fou haven’t. Metering and transport is really an improvement
I have it... but my phone is truly a work of trash. I will keep it in mind for when I have a better device.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #567
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
so the sign of the devil is 676?
I am SO bad at math, but hopefully. . . . Oh, never mind.

D
Old 3 weeks ago
  #568
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
Did I miss it John, or did Paul forget to mention the 32 bit float processing in the MixPre II series? Even so, Paul is a great spokesperson for SD.
Ha! I don't think I forgot to mention it. IPS (the team who did the interview) said they were going to edit out the bit about 32-bit float and make a separate video of it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #569
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljisaacs View Post
Ha! I don't think I forgot to mention it. IPS (the team who did the interview) said they were going to edit out the bit about 32-bit float and make a separate video of it.
Mr Isaacs, since you're here... Do the MixPre II devices allow the user an option to record pairs of inputs as stereo wavs? As you'll know, many classical recordings are made via pairs of mics that are intended to produce stereo wavs for mixing in post. Granted, ISOs pairs could be turned into stereo wavs in Wave Agent, but the workflow for classical engineers could be sped and made more convenient if you provided that option at the time of recording. I should think the software coding at Sound Devices would take half of one wet Wednesday afternoon... Thank you for your attention.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #570
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
I have it... but my phone is truly a work of trash. I will keep it in mind for when I have a better device.
I’m sure you know this but figured I’d mention that it will work on a ipad also
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