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-   -   Off grid studio: BUZZING NOISE!!! (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/all-things-technical/1099926-off-grid-studio-buzzing-noise.html)

EmptyVessel 10th July 2016 10:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Crowley (Post 12008119)
Why does your amp hum slightly with nothing plugged in? That may be the root of the problem right there.
Maybe THAT needs fixing before you can proceed with the rest of the chain.

Does the noise increase when you plug in a cable even if the far end is shorted?
Wrap the far plug in aluminum foil plus rubber band to ensure that tip and sleeve are shorted together

What happens to the noise when you plug the far end of the cable into a pedal which is un-powered?


Ok I cant tell If the noises are being inconsistent here or if Im getting so far down the rabbit hole Im getting a little confused. AS OF NOW, on the big generator, the amp sounds pretty normal with nothing plugged in (maybe a TINY bit of hum) When I kick on the high gain channel of the amp, really high gain, theres a faint hum/buzz. When I Plug in a cable it gets a bit louder. Short the end, (tip to sleeve) it goes away (back to same sound as w no cable). Plug the cable into unpowered pedal, it goes away. Plug it into guitar with volume down, goes away. Its bearable with out my pedal board in the equation. As soon as I plug in my pedals even with none of them on, it gets way louder. If I pass the bare cable over the power cable going to the pedals power strip, it gets really loud. If I power the pedals via Westinghouse genny while the amp is on Diesel the pedals still pick up too much noise but the bare cable picks up way less noise from the pedals power supply.
I tried powering down the entire house and tried on both my westinghouse <3% THD genny as well as my Samlex pure sine interver. Both of those pick up even more noise from my pedal board. Same issues with cable noise etc as above but the amp just buzzes louder with nothing plugged in at all. Its a slightly different sounding noise but the add the pedals and its real bad. Its a more "gritty" noise.

Ive uploaded an mp3. It starts with the amp on diesel gen and pedals on WH gen, with guitar volume down, then up. Then it switches to both amp and pedals on diesel gen. guitar volume down and then up. In both cases all of the pedals are completely bypassed/ true bypass. At the end you can hear me unplug the cable from from of amp = nothing plugged in. THe amp is on high gain channel the whole time.

EmptyVessel 10th July 2016 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Crowley (Post 12008119)
Why does your amp hum slightly with nothing plugged in? That may be the root of the problem right there.
Maybe THAT needs fixing before you can proceed with the rest of the chain.

Does the noise increase when you plug in a cable even if the far end is shorted?
Wrap the far plug in aluminum foil plus rubber band to ensure that tip and sleeve are shorted together

What happens to the noise when you plug the far end of the cable into a pedal which is un-powered?

Ok I cant tell If the noises are being inconsistent here or if Im getting so far down the rabbit hole Im getting a little confused. AS OF NOW, on the big generator, the amp sounds pretty normal with nothing plugged in (maybe a TINY bit of hum) When I kick on the high gain channel of the amp, really high gain, theres a faint hum/buzz. When I Plug in a cable it gets a bit louder. Short the end, (tip to sleeve) it goes away (back to same sound as w no cable). Plug the cable into unpowered pedal, it goes away. Plug it into guitar with volume down, goes away. Its bearable with out my pedal board in the equation. As soon as I plug in my pedals even with none of them on, it gets way louder. If I pass the bare cable over the power cable going to the pedals power strip, it gets really loud. If I power the pedals via Westinghouse genny while the amp is on Diesel the pedals still pick up too much noise but the bare cable picks up way less noise from the pedals power supply.
I tried powering down the entire house and tried on both my westinghouse <3% THD genny as well as my Samlex pure sine interver. Both of those pick up even more noise from my pedal board. Same issues with cable noise etc as above but the amp just buzzes louder with nothing plugged in at all. Its a slightly different sounding noise but the add the pedals and its real bad. Its a more "gritty" noise.

Ive uploaded an mp3. It starts with the amp on diesel gen and pedals on WH gen, with guitar volume down, then up. Then it switches to both amp and pedals on diesel gen. guitar volume down and then up. In both cases all of the pedals are completely bypassed/ true bypass. At the end you can hear me unplug the cable from from of amp = nothing plugged in. THe amp is on high gain channel the whole time.

Deleted User 11th July 2016 01:02 AM

just might be interesting to see how a compass or a compass app would act around your place.ablian

Deleted User 11th July 2016 01:10 AM

ozone hole effects on electronics , you may have the Mother of Ozone Holes

That would be about how my luck would go yingyang

Deleted User 11th July 2016 02:53 AM

All Ozone kidding aside, it sounds like in the move, something has come loose inside the amp/ internal grounding/ twisted pairs have shifted/or tubes may of unseated, or took a good jarring and you've got a bad tube, been there! even a grid resistor could have fractured, or a cap could have vibrated and caused a solder fracture. If you're tube amp savvy, take a look around inside, if you're not" take it in.(you know all this) also might swap tubes, if you have some handy, (do one at a time, with cloves) Now if your other gear was acting up I would say it was electrical, a tube amp is a little fussier though and you can move it all over the house and may find the sweet spot with no hum if that's all it is. Does it motorboat any, if so "Caps". Anyway just a move to a gig, new anywhere can take its toll on a tube amp and tubes..... that's why we carry extra's. What amp is it? make sure no grounding nuts have loosened/backed off. you can use a stick to poke around, move wires (not a pencil).

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2MuchStuff (Post 12009422)
All Ozone kidding aside, it sounds like in the move, something has come loose inside the amp/ internal grounding/ twisted pairs have shifted/or tubes may of unseated, or took a good jarring and you've got a bad tube, been there! even a grid resistor could have fractured, or a cap could have vibrated and caused a solder fracture. If you're tube amp savvy, take a look around inside, if you're not" take it in.(you know all this) also might swap tubes, if you have some handy, (do one at a time, with cloves) Now if your other gear was acting up I would say it was electrical, a tube amp is a little fussier though and you can move it all over the house and may find the sweet spot with no hum if that's all it is. Does it motorboat any, if so "Caps". Anyway just a move to a gig, new anywhere can take its toll on a tube amp and tubes..... that's why we carry extra's. What amp is it? make sure no grounding nuts have loosened/backed off. you can use a stick to poke around, move wires (not a pencil).

TWO different amps in different places in the room. Same problems. Verellen Loucks and a Vox AC 15.

Deleted User 11th July 2016 03:16 AM

Oh, I missed that, I'll think for awhile,,,, that does complicate things.

Deleted User 11th July 2016 03:21 AM

way to much to internally shield, or choke, are all generators graded in place?

Deleted User 11th July 2016 03:35 AM

have you check all outlet polarity, Hot on right neutral on left

Deleted User 11th July 2016 04:23 AM

if you have a satellite dish, look for a ground coming from it and get rid of it/ cut it, anything like that you can think of. you should have only one earth ground. and that should be on the secondary of your inverters, same with the generator, it should ground at secondary of your inverters also, and should be isolated from ground, as in chassis/tongue and possibly add a remote contactor or a disconnect to isolate it completely from everything, as it could cause an antenna loopback effect,,,,. How many grounds do you have? and if you have an AC condenser, is it on a pad?

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2MuchStuff (Post 12009460)
way to much to internally shield, or choke, are all generators graded in place?

Not sure what that means. My electrician checked the outlets. All good. The noise is even worse on an independent interver/generator with its own dedicated ground https://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-.../dp/B00NHACROW
supposedly <3% THD

Deleted User 11th July 2016 04:47 AM

Im saying if you have multiple ground potentials, say outside, you've got electricity going from one to the other then the other.... LOOP

Deleted User 11th July 2016 04:54 AM

you should have one common /earth ground, which is actually your neutrals but the all tie to ground. the more grounds you have separate from this will create a field for emi, loops etc.

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2MuchStuff (Post 12009587)
you should have one common /earth ground, which is actually your neutrals but the all tie to ground. the more grounds you have separate from this will create a field for emi, loops etc.

The main generator has its ground and we installed one for the small generator. When I connected them together nothing changed but I've been leaving them separate. So no, there arent multiple grounds on the system.

Deleted User 11th July 2016 05:01 AM

lets say your sat dish has a safety ground outside, but the Coaxial cable brings it in to the receiver the receiver's plugged into the wall, making two ground potentials.........! a ground loop

Deleted User 11th July 2016 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2MuchStuff (Post 12009460)
way to much to internally shield, or choke, are all generators graded in place?

I was talking about internally shielding your amps,,,, look it up it might be your only option with tube amps

Deleted User 11th July 2016 05:17 AM

I take it that all your gear is on the same outlet, just to eliminate that as a ground loop and you've eliminated the chance of any bad patch cables and cords. have you tried a ground lift on any amp with only the guitar plugged in? make sure if you do don't touch anything else while you're doing it,,,, it could be lethal, tube amps are hot chassis.

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2MuchStuff (Post 12009610)
I take it that all your gear is on the same outlet, just to eliminate that as a ground loop and you've eliminated the chance of any bad patch cables and cords. have you tried a ground lift on any amp with only the guitar plugged in? make sure if you do don't touch anything else while you're doing it,,,, it could be lethal, tube amps are hot chassis.

We dont have satellite, or anything else I can see that would have its own safety ground. Real simple out here. As far as gear on same outlet, Ive done my best to eliminate the possibility of ground loops. I dont fully understand it but if you read my recent posts from the last few days you can see how Ive tried many combinations: Amp on Diesel gen with pedals on Westinghouse gen, vice versa, all on one or the other, etc.

Internally shielding my amp eh? oh boy, another rabbit hole to dive down...

Deleted User 11th July 2016 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmptyVessel (Post 12002153)
Ok. Had an electrician out. Check everything. Added a new ground rod specifically for my studio/generator.

Still noisy.

We're trying things solely on generators now as we know that my inverter is a modified sine wave and will definitely add noise.

There is a steady rhythm "under" buzz, about 2 pulses per second (pardon idk what to call that). Its there on either generator and on the solar inverter. Its less prominent on the westinghouse but still there. Im really baffled how it would be there on every setup, the same speed, either amp....

My 50w Tube amp and my 15w amp are both really quiet without anything plugged in. I plug in a guitar cable, with nothing on the end, it buzzes, as you'd expect, right? I grab the end of the cable (not the tip though) it gets quieter. Move the cable around, buzz changes. I plug in guitar to cable, same buzz until I turn volume down. No volume= no buzz.


I was thinking perhaps RF but as my electrician assured me, theres almost no chance way out here.... unless perhaps my gear is creating it...? So if the unplugged cable changes as I move around, and my pickup also does a bit (it gets way louder if I go near my rack or my pedal board) what else could it be? Ive also isolated both amps so that nothing else is powered with them whatsoever.

This is so crazy....

Ok. Had an electrician out. Check everything. Added a new ground rod specifically for my studio/generator.


Is your studios power totally independent from your houses power? wondering what your electrician did that for? safety I suppose, that created one more ground. and its connected to your wall outlets also?

Deleted User 11th July 2016 05:44 AM

"The transmission of wireless electricity through the air and ground is possible. Tesla lit up 200 electric bulbs at the distance of 25 miles in Colorado ... just by sticking wires into the soil and a electrical bulb would light

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2MuchStuff (Post 12009635)
Ok. Had an electrician out. Check everything. Added a new ground rod specifically for my studio/generator.


Is your studios power totally independent from your houses power? wondering what your electrician did that for? safety I suppose, that created one more ground. and its connected to your wall outlets also?

I can run on the house's power or on the independent small generator. Both are noisy. We added a new ground here at the studio for the chance that it would help and to have a totally independent power system for the sake of troubleshooting. I tied it in to the house's power via the breaker box for a bit to see if it had any effect. It did not so I disconnected it.


Is there any way to check if Im getting electricity passing through the air or ground?! At this point thats about what I am suspecting because this is madness...

Deleted User 11th July 2016 05:54 AM

you'll get it sorted out, just think about the loop, "electricity is always looking for ground", and it will come back in on another ground kfhkh

Deleted User 11th July 2016 05:57 AM

what kind of floors in studio, wood, concrete?

Deleted User 11th July 2016 06:02 AM

Ive done gigs bearfoot on concrete and had hum, and a little tingle to go with it.

Deleted User 11th July 2016 06:04 AM

Im cashing in for the night, Later Dude

studer58 11th July 2016 09:42 AM

I take it you've tried just guitar straight into amp, no pedals ? Tried several guitar leads...any of them shielded ? Then introduce each pedal one by one...even if there's buzz right from the start, does one pedal make it worse than another ? Pedals and their little cables can all go faulty...are you running them off wall warts or 9 volt cells ? Try 9 volts to eliminate the wall wart as a source of hum.

"Ok I cant tell If the noises are being inconsistent here or if Im getting so far down the rabbit hole Im getting a little confused. AS OF NOW, on the big generator, the amp sounds pretty normal with nothing plugged in (maybe a TINY bit of hum) When I kick on the high gain channel of the amp, really high gain, theres a faint hum/buzz. When I Plug in a cable it gets a bit louder. Short the end, (tip to sleeve) it goes away (back to same sound as w no cable). Plug the cable into unpowered pedal, it goes away. Plug it into guitar with volume down, goes away. Its bearable with out my pedal board in the equation. As soon as I plug in my pedals even with none of them on, it gets way louder. If I pass the bare cable over the power cable going to the pedals power strip, it gets really loud. If I power the pedals via Westinghouse genny while the amp is on Diesel the pedals still pick up too much noise but the bare cable picks up way less noise from the pedals power supply."

You'd need to try this same series of trials as you've quoted above in a suburban grid powered house, to see if it's any better or worse...not just that it used to be better back then, but actually perform it again right now... as some part of your equipment chain may have been damaged in the move to your new place.

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2MuchStuff (Post 12009647)
what kind of floors in studio, wood, concrete?

Wood

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58 (Post 12009869)
I take it you've tried just guitar straight into amp, no pedals ? Tried several guitar leads...any of them shielded ? Then introduce each pedal one by one...even if there's buzz right from the start, does one pedal make it worse than another ? Pedals and their little cables can all go faulty...are you running them off wall warts or 9 volt cells ? Try 9 volts to eliminate the wall wart as a source of hum.


You'd need to try this same series of trials as you've quoted above in a suburban grid powered house, to see if it's any better or worse...not just that it used to be better back then, but actually perform it again right now... as some part of your equipment chain may have been damaged in the move to your new place.

Yes, straight in, no pedals, it buzzes. At best, on my large diesel generator its a faint hum and Ive just found that if I stand in one place in the room its quietest. The higher the gain (pedal) the louder it gets.

As Ive said before, TWO different amps are producing the same buzz. Bare cable into amp, it gets louder.

Im mostly confused at why this westinghouse generator, advertised as <3%THD, as well as my samlex pure sine inverter are sooo noisy. Seems like it has to be some kind of interference.

EmptyVessel 11th July 2016 10:05 PM

Also still noticing that when I touch the strings or the cable housing at the guitar, it gets quiter (well actually quiets to the same volume as just the amp with nothing plugged in)....

Deleted User 20th July 2016 10:49 AM

Hey Empty, have you had any progress? or tried anything different, to narrow that hum......? I've been real tied up but still on it.