The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Sennheiser mkh 8040 noise over 20kHz
Old 2nd May 2016
  #31
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieter k View Post
Very interesting discussion, especially as I'm possibly just a few days away from ordering a pair of MKH8040s, as much for their studio flexibility as for their field advantages.

So out of curiosity, does this type of extended HF response automatically indicate the raised noise floor, or is there some manufacturer or model of SDC that has managed to both extend HF and keep the noise floor in line with audible spectrum specs?
Noise density x sqrt(bandwidth) = noise level.
So if two circuits have the same noise density, the one with more bandwidth will have more noise.
Anyway, the MKH8000 series are quieter than most comparable mics.
Old 3rd May 2016
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Using Sanken CO-100K and Senn. 8020--no problems here.

Sanken sound especially good. Very open sound--no brightness though.
At risk of derailing, but I'm curious: what does "brightness" mean in this context?
Old 3rd May 2016
  #33
And in case anyone is curious about the Sanken supersonic response.
Attached Thumbnails
Sennheiser mkh 8040 noise over 20kHz-cba-2016-05-031457.jpg  
Old 3rd May 2016
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse View Post
At risk of derailing, but I'm curious: what does "brightness" mean in this context?
Posters are cautioning against noise in extended freq. response mics. I'm saying that the Sanken CO-100 does not exhibit this noise, nor does it sound bright. It sounds natural.

Brightness might be a hazard in extended response mics, but I have not heard it in Sennheiser or Sanken mics.
Old 3rd May 2016
  #35
Gear Addict
 

The microphones in question here, MKH8000, Schoeps CMC6 xt, and Sanken CO-100K all have huge amount of high frequency boost, north of 20-25dBs in the range of above 20KHz. Strictly speaking, in theory at least, the increased noise in those microphones should be more or less inaudible to most of human ears. However, there are negative consequences come with this kind of design. 1, Extra noise; this is easy to understand. When you increase 20-25dBs of gain in a circuit, the inherent noise gets boosted by the same amount. 2, Phase shift; the boost comes from analog circuit therefore the phase gets shifted. Phase shift and analog EQ are conjoined twins, they go together. 3, Reduced overload margin at those frequency; any analog circuit with a given power supply has an overload point. If you boost the circuit with 20-25dBs of gain, you bring the circuit that much closer to overload point. 4, Increased distortion; to boost a circuit with extra gain you also boost the inherent distortion, just like the noise, or basically any byproduct of the circuit by the boosted amount. Distortion also increases as the extra circuit is needed to achieve the boost. 5, Modulation down the audio chain; remember you have to further boost your microphone output with a mic-pre. The higher level of high frequency noise from your mic could play nasty game with your mic-pre and AD converter. You may or may not hear the modulation problem but it will be there.

There is no free lunch in this world as we all know. Microphone high frequency range does not get easily extended either. There are prices to pay for the extension. Personally, I think the price for the extension is too high. 20-25dB is a lot of gain, try to keep that in mind.


Best regards,


Da-Hong
Old 3rd May 2016
  #36
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
There is no free lunch in this world as we all know. Microphone high frequency range does not get easily extended either. There are prices to pay for the extension. Personally, I think the price for the extension is too high. 20-25dB is a lot of gain, try to keep that in mind.
Understood.

For my intended purposes, I'm not aware of any other mic that shares the same feature set. The older MKH40 has the symmetrical RF capsule--and un-extended HF response--but the size of the mic limits its usefulness for me. Even given the noted consideration of the costs of extended HF response, I still think the 8040 strikes the best balance for my purposes.

If there's another mic out there with the same feature set and compact size except without the extended HF response, I would be more than glad to know about it. After all, I have not actually purchased the pair of mics yet.
Old 3rd May 2016
  #37
Lives for gear
 

If anything, MKH8020 is a warm/dull sounding mic. Of course depending on room and distance to sound source. The more or less flat free field response means the diffuse field has a significant roll off due to the capsule size.

I often boost the top end of MKH8020 a bit for a neutral sound.

I have not used the Sanken omni mic being talked about but can easily imagine a neutral impression at a distance dues to the top lift.. essentially making it more or less flat in the diffuse field.
Old 4th May 2016
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pieter k View Post
If there's another mic out there with the same feature set and compact size except without the extended HF response, I would be more than glad to know about it. After all, I have not actually purchased the pair of mics yet.
The Sonodore 65 is similar. It uses interchangeable grids to vary the frequency response according to the situation. The capsule is smaller which causes the polar pattern to be more omnidirectional. It doesn't have an "ultrasonic" (over 20khz) frequency response.
Old 4th May 2016
  #39
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The Sonodore 65 is similar. It uses interchangeable grids to vary the frequency response according to the situation. The capsule is smaller which causes the polar pattern to be more omnidirectional. It doesn't have an "ultrasonic" (over 20khz) frequency response.
I've been quite interested in the Sonodore/Heijnis gear, but is the capsule an RF design? A major factor in my interest in the MKH8040 is its tolerance of less than perfect environmental conditions. Too, the 8040's off axis rejection is more pronounced I think; preferable for me.

As an aside, I sure would love to try some of Heijnis' preamps and power supplies. The battery powered options seem so cool.
Old 4th May 2016
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pieter k View Post
I've been quite interested in the Sonodore/Heijnis gear, but is the capsule an RF design? A major factor in my interest in the MKH8040 is its tolerance of less than perfect environmental conditions. Too, the 8040's off axis rejection is more pronounced I think; preferable for me.

As an aside, I sure would love to try some of Heijnis' preamps and power supplies. The battery powered options seem so cool.
The RF design is unique to Sennheiser. If it's cardioid you're looking for, then
Sonodore isn't the right choice.
Old 5th May 2016
  #41
Lives for gear
 

Rode uses RF as well (in some mic's) if memory serves me.
Old 5th May 2016
  #42
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by pieter k View Post
Understood.

For my intended purposes, I'm not aware of any other mic that shares the same feature set. The older MKH40 has the symmetrical RF capsule--and un-extended HF response--but the size of the mic limits its usefulness for me. Even given the noted consideration of the costs of extended HF response, I still think the 8040 strikes the best balance for my purposes.

If there's another mic out there with the same feature set and compact size except without the extended HF response, I would be more than glad to know about it. After all, I have not actually purchased the pair of mics yet.
The MKH 40 series roll off very quickly above 20k


Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
If anything, MKH8020 is a warm/dull sounding mic. Of course depending on room and distance to sound source. The more or less flat free field response means the diffuse field has a significant roll off due to the capsule size.

I often boost the top end of MKH8020 a bit for a neutral sound.

I have not used the Sanken omni mic being talked about but can easily imagine a neutral impression at a distance dues to the top lift.. essentially making it more or less flat in the diffuse field.
The 8020 is really a nearfield omni and would be a bit dull in the diffuse field - the sphere may help.

Unfortunately Sennheiser did not do a diffuse field switch module for the 8020 (despite me advising them that they should do this).
Old 5th May 2016
  #43
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Unfortunately Sennheiser did not do a diffuse field switch module for the 8020 (despite me advising them that they should do this).
That was a big oversight on their part...with a diffuse field switch they could've discontinued making the MKH20 altogether

Given that it's a purely circuit-derived eq boost, rather than physical as per spheres or pressure rings, can't that be replicated quite well in software afterwards ?
Old 5th May 2016
  #44
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
That was a big oversight on their part...with a diffuse field switch they could've discontinued making the MKH20 altogether

Given that it's a purely circuit-derived eq boost, rather than physical as per spheres or pressure rings, can't that be replicated quite well in software afterwards ?


You could boost the high end in your software but it will boost the noise from your mic-pre, as well as your ADC by the same amount. Therefore, it is definitely a lesser of an evil to boost the high end in the mic instead of using SW, at least from noise standpoint.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump