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sync to blackburst vs sync to word clock
Old 30th January 2007
  #1
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numrologst's Avatar
Talking sync to blackburst vs sync to word clock

So I just picked up a adams smith zeta 3 on ebay...

I only know a little bit about this sync box, so I could use some help. I dont have the box yet, so I am trying to figure everything out before i get it.

Question 1) I have heard that the sync is strengthened by syncing the zeta to vid blackburst... I also heard that the zeta has capability to sync to word clock too.. If this is true, would i be better off syncing to blackburst or wc via my big ben? As a side note how is the horita unit? I dont know much about blackburst but i found this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/HORITA-BG-50-BLA...QQcmdZViewItem

Question 2) How does sync get into my daw? MTC or SMPTE? Is there a better way considering the tape is striped with smpte?

Question 3) Most of my tapes are striped with SMPTE... But I have a few transfers to make that aren't striped with SMPTE... THese tapes are ready to go, but is it okay to stripe after the fact?

Question 4) If I slave the machine to the daw, how does the zeta make the machine slew to sync to the daw?


By the way I am using nuendo which has a good smpte generator, and my machine is a jh-24.

I'm trying not to be redundant with my post, but I have read every thread on this topic and I am still a little murky about my questions.

Thanks slutz
Old 30th January 2007
  #2
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Old 30th January 2007
  #3
It depends what you need to sync whether to use blackburst or simply wordclock. If you use blackburst, the sync box will essentially "translate" that to word clock to sync the digital machines. If you had all digital gear in the room, a word clock (no video black) reference would be fine, but non-digital transports usually want to see black.

The other thing that it's not clear from your post whether you understand, and this is a common confusion, is the difference and relationship between black burst (or wordclock) and time code. To stay in sync, you need both a speed and positional reference. You need to know where you are (time code) and how fast you are going (sync reference - black or WC). Without both, it won't work. Some think you just plug the SMPTE in and problem solved, but you will drift over time without a sync reference. You must have both for proper synchroninzation.

Touching on some of your other questions, to send code to your DAW, SMPTE is the first choice, but some DAWs don't support that, and you would use MTC in that case. For example, Pro Tools HD supports SMPTE, while Pro Tools LE does not.

To synchronize you jh-24 analog machine, you will likely need blackburst, and further, you usually need something like Lynx II. Analog transports slip and wow, and you need something that will compare and adjust speed and make corrections. I'm not sure if the Zeta will take care of that, but it might. Honestly, I forget. It's been a while since I've had one in my hands.

I hope this helps you on your way. Good luck.
Old 30th January 2007
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

sexy thread!

This is a blood sport. Much more info is required to be of help.
1. Is this just for transfers or to lock while tracking/mixing?
2. Is the zeta serial only or can it handle parallel?
3. My guess is the MCI is a parallel machine???
4. Do you need transport control from a console?
5. How many a/d's are in the daw?
6. Do yo need "old school" video capability?

That's just for starters. I don't know how much time I'd be able to spend helping but I'll do my best.

Ron Allaire, Skyline
Old 30th January 2007
  #5
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
So I just picked up a adams smith zeta 3 on ebay...

I only know a little bit about this sync box, so I could use some help. I dont have the box yet, so I am trying to figure everything out before i get it.

Question 1) I have heard that the sync is strengthened by syncing the zeta to vid blackburst... I also heard that the zeta has capability to sync to word clock too.. If this is true, would i be better off syncing to blackburst or wc via my big ben? As a side note how is the horita unit? I dont know much about blackburst but i found this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/HORITA-BG-50-BLA...QQcmdZViewItem

Question 2) How does sync get into my daw? MTC or SMPTE? Is there a better way considering the tape is striped with smpte?

Question 3) Most of my tapes are striped with SMPTE... But I have a few transfers to make that aren't striped with SMPTE... THese tapes are ready to go, but is it okay to stripe after the fact?

Question 4) If I slave the machine to the daw, how does the zeta make the machine slew to sync to the daw?


By the way I am using nuendo which has a good smpte generator, and my machine is a jh-24.

I'm trying not to be redundant with my post, but I have read every thread on this topic and I am still a little murky about my questions.

Thanks slutz
Up front - I do not know the Adams syncronizers. However, the concept is the same whether Lynx or Adams.

There are a million questions (and answers) about syncronization. It is not necessarily simple, and can be extremely complex. Unless the Adams can syncronize TWO machines, you may need another. I believe the microLynx can syncronize two machines, but I always used two Lynx modules to syncronize my JH24 to DAW.

First, the DAW should be master. That means it must generate code, be locked to the same source (blackburst or word) for the syncronizer and positional (SMPTE) TC to work. Slaving the DAW to the 2" machine will result in a degraded sound on the DAW that will make bad jitter seem like a dream. Why? In laymans terms, the tape machine under it's own control is always slewing. A DAW runs solid and consistant. (LOL, or at least should.) If you make the DAW follow the tape machine with SMPTE, it will make the DAW slew the same as the 2" machine. Unless the 2" machine is resolved to blackburst and a syncronizer of it's own.

For your questions, I would suggest starting at the beginning. You are asking questions, that although valid, suggest a lack of knowledge in syncronization in general. As Jay said, you need both a positional reference (SMPTE) and a time reference (black). If you are working with video, the choice is obviouis - blackburst. Even without video, I have found it to be the most stable source for resolving analog machines. The Horita is a good, and very used unit.

You get positional reference via SMPTE. Now, your DAW may read smpte directly ala PT, or you may need SMPTE converted to MTC via a midi interface ala Digital Performer.

You may stripe after the fact, but be aware, doing so and resolving the machine, may change the playback speed. If the TC was striped while the syncronizer was resolved to black, the speed will be slightly different than if the syncronizer was synced to it's internal clock. This is a huge issue with Orchestras. If you're just transfering to edit or mix, it may be no big deal.

Also, with SMPTE generally being on an edge track (24), it is HIGHLY sucepptable to dropout. Restriping every time you re-use a tape is preferable. Make sure to write down on the box the frame rate and what the syncronizer was resolved to. Also, (someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's been awhile since I sold my MCI), the syncronizer should be resolved while striping, but the machine should be free wheeling (not resolved).

Never stripe code from a DAW - use the Zeta.

For the DAW to be master, you need a DAW that does more than stripe code, it must generate code ala the Sync box on PT.

Question 4 - this is why you need 2 syncronizers or one syncronizer that can control 2 devices. You do it like this:

1.) DAW is the freewheeling MASTER, but via it's own syncronizer (in PT, that's the SYNC i/0) it is resolved to video black and set to generate TC when PT goes into play at any position in the song.

2.) The code from the DAW is sent to the Lynx/Adams syncronizers. The TC goes into syncronizer #1 - the master syncronizer, which is set to VSO mode and master status.

3.) Positional status (SMPTE) is being controled by the DAW generating code as play is engaged, and TIME (Blackburst) is being controled by an external device (Horita)

4.) Syncronizer #2 (the 2" machine syncronizer) is set to slave off of Syncronizer #1. Put the machine to follow external syncronization and BAM, you're there.

Well, kinda. That's the basics, but I hope I haven't missed anything - I haven't had my coffee yet today!!! It's simple, yet there's hundreds of potential gotcha's. I suggest a good tech engineer from a local post house. Have him come in and show you the best way to make your setup work. Trying to learn how to do this from an internet post is akin to learning to ride supercross via a catalog. It's just not going to happen.

Also, never start your stripe at 0:00:00:00. If you rewind the DAW before that point, the machine will race forward into hour 23 instead of rewinding. A standard practice is to always start your song at 01:00:00:00. with the stripe starting at 00:59:30:00.

Last point - if you are even the tiny-est bit hazy or murky. Hire an engineer that KNOWS this stuff inside out, and has done it for the last 20 years to come and help you. OTherwise you will get yourself into self created messes that you don't want. This is one area where the local pro audio dealer (now virtually extinct) really came into play. Getting this stuff set up and working correctly, and then learing to use it correctly is no small matter. Internet posts are not going to get you there. Best of luck.

Bill

Do not try to "save" on tape by not giving AT LEAST 15 seconds of preroll. 30 is better. Trust me on this. You will end up hating life.
Old 30th January 2007
  #6
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronzie View Post
This is a blood sport.
Ron, I am ROTFLMAO!!!!! You are so right on that. Good luck numrologist!
Old 30th January 2007
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Ron, I am ROTFLMAO!!!!! You are so right on that. Good luck numrologist!
I forgot to mention "good luck" myself ! It would have taken me 8yrs to type that response. Nice tight answer drBill.

Ron Allaire, Skyline
Old 30th January 2007
  #8
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numrologst's Avatar
Thanks guys for all the info... This is gonna take me a little while to digest. I am not up to snuff with my knowledge of this kind of stuff... SO all the info is amazing. And as I imagined, this is way more complicated than i ever expected. The Zeta can sync 2 machines by the way.

I have 32 channels of ad via apogee 16x... So I can make my 24 track transfers to digital without problem.. My issue comes with the necessity to have more than 24 tracks...

I prefer tracking to analog and mixing off the machine when all possible... But there are some songs that I am working on that have 24 tracks maxed out and I still have plenty to track. So basically what i need to do Is transfer tracks 1-24 to daw, and then create a submix. This submix comes back to a new tape and I continue to record...Or the tracks on the original tape get wiped except smpte/click/drums and i continue tracking... Then I make another dump into daw and mix from there.

My 2nd need is this: I am about to purchase an A80 and the 8 track headstack from JRF... So eventually I will need to sync the jh24 and the studer... As well as the studer and the daw... And I know that this is a horse of a different story.


Hopefully I can make some sense of this stuff and draw some more conclusions...But for now I was hoping it would at least be somewhat possible for me to sync nuendo w/ the machine.

From my basic understanding of what was just said, this would be my setup.

I use the zeta to stripe smpte to 2".

But I am still not quite grasping the rest... From my other reading it seemed like the zeta without video black would still work... But I was told the video black would make the sync stronger.

As far as I know nuendo can read and generate code... So I have the zeta doing all the work and if I need to use video black then I use it.


BUt drbill i am still having trouble grasping what i need my daw to do. I will read again and try to figure it out
Old 30th January 2007
  #9
the problem is this, in order for this stuff to work right, you need to stripe smpte while resolved to the black burst, which is the master clock if you will. For the projects that you are now working on that smpte was already striped, I would make the daw the master and have the 2" chase it. When you start a project stripe tc on your deck with the zeta while resolved to the black burst, the concept is the bb clock that the zeta is resolved to makes it so the analog deck doesnt really wow and flutter. Then it is possible to make the 2" deck the master. Without striping resolved to burst this will not work. The big advantage of this method is its VERY stable with regards to jitter in your daw. If you don't already have tc on the 2" this is the way to do it. Once resolved tc is on your 2" you would then patch tc from the 2" into your daw midi interface which would then get position from the tc on the 2"
With your current projects Dr Bill's description is spot on. There is one other trick.
Someone on GS was selling a Rosendahl nanosync, buy it or an aardvark Time Sync II.
These particular boxes have a killer clock that allows for using the 2" as the master and not wrecking your daw audio. Those are the only two I know of that reliably do this.
FWIW I use the aardvark constantly and it's great I use it with 36 channels of I/O.
Old 30th January 2007
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
Thanks guys for all the info... This is gonna take me a little while to digest. I am not up to snuff with my knowledge of this kind of stuff... SO all the info is amazing. And as I imagined, this is way more complicated than i ever expected. The Zeta can sync 2 machines by the way.

I have 32 channels of ad via apogee 16x... So I can make my 24 track transfers to digital without problem.. My issue comes with the necessity to have more than 24 tracks...

I prefer tracking to analog and mixing off the machine when all possible... But there are some songs that I am working on that have 24 tracks maxed out and I still have plenty to track. So basically what i need to do Is transfer tracks 1-24 to daw, and then create a submix. This submix comes back to a new tape and I continue to record...Or the tracks on the original tape get wiped except smpte/click/drums and i continue tracking... Then I make another dump into daw and mix from there.

My 2nd need is this: I am about to purchase an A80 and the 8 track headstack from JRF... So eventually I will need to sync the jh24 and the studer... As well as the studer and the daw... And I know that this is a horse of a different story.


Hopefully I can make some sense of this stuff and draw some more conclusions...But for now I was hoping it would at least be somewhat possible for me to sync nuendo w/ the machine.

From my basic understanding of what was just said, this would be my setup.

I use the zeta to stripe smpte to 2".

But I am still not quite grasping the rest... From my other reading it seemed like the zeta without video black would still work... But I was told the video black would make the sync stronger.

As far as I know nuendo can read and generate code... So I have the zeta doing all the work and if I need to use video black then I use it.


BUt drbill i am still having trouble grasping what i need my daw to do. I will read again and try to figure it out
Video black is really important but only it it was used from the begining. Otherwise it won't help.
Old 30th January 2007
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
But I am still not quite grasping the rest... From my other reading it seemed like the zeta without video black would still work... But I was told the video black would make the sync stronger.

As far as I know nuendo can read and generate code... So I have the zeta doing all the work and if I need to use video black then I use it.

BUt drbill i am still having trouble grasping what i need my daw to do. I will read again and try to figure it out
You want the blackburst. You need a proper sync reference. Don't try to skip it. Everything in the room needs to be looking at that blackburst for sync. If your DAW won't accept black, then you need something like the Aadrvark or Nanosync (which also has it's own black generator) or Lucid to take in black and turn it into wordclock for your DAW, and if you had digital outboard gear connected or a digital mixer, these would also want to see the same sync, though outboard could just resolve to AES, but this is more jittery.

If your DAW doesn't have a wordclock in either, then you're in a little more trouble. There is a way to do it if you have multiple AES or even SPDIF inputs, and if your sync box has a digital black output on one of those formats. This is how to actually get a pro tools LE system to sync, even though they try to make you believe it's impossible.

So, to sum up, send black to everything, or if the DAW needs it translated to WC, then get a box to do that if the Zeta does not. Always be referenced to black (in this case, it would be called "house sync") so that any striping or playing is always done to the same speed reference. If you want the DAW to be master (probably the best way to work it here for a number of reasons), then have it generate code from playback, and send that code to the zeta, which in turn controls the tape deck. Both are following the common speed reference of blackburst, and the tape deck if following the positional reference from the DAW through the Zeta.

I don't even want to think about what will happen when you get the Studer... Nah, it really isn't that crazy. There will be a few more hoops to jump through, and likely some more gear to buy, but it should work.
Old 31st January 2007
  #12
Lives for gear
This is how I use the ZETA III

First, I have not read the whole thread so this may of already been covered.

1. Tape Machine MCI JH24 running as the slave (tape striped with SMPTE)
To run the daw as the master you need a special cable that allows the MCI's DC motor to be controlled by the ZETA III
2. Adam Smith Zeta III
3. Daw > SawStudio generating SMPTE and the master

The ZETA III has pre-configured tape machine setups in it. Once set up, it is a breeze to use.

1. Put the JH24 in external sync.
2. Daw generates SMPTE to the ZETA III
3. Zeta 3 locks the JH 24 TO daw and controls the tape machine's motor.

Works excellently.
Old 31st January 2007
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

drBill said:
Quote:
Also, (someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's been awhile since I sold my MCI), the syncronizer should be resolved while striping, but the machine should be free wheeling (not resolved).
You are correct ie: Machine clamped to burst but "off line" (capstan free wheelin') from synchronizer. This is critical !

Musiclab said:
Quote:
Someone on GS was selling a Rosendahl nanosync, buy it or an aardvark Time Sync II.
These particular boxes have a killer clock that allows for using the 2" as the master and not wrecking your daw audio.
SSSHH! Your making it to easy!! But extremely solid advice.

Jay said:
Quote:
So, to sum up, send black to everything, or if the DAW needs it translated to WC, then get a box to do that if the Zeta does not. Always be referenced to black (in this case, it would be called "house sync") so that any striping or playing is always done to the same speed reference.
More extremely solid advice.

Numerologist said:
Quote:
BUt drbill i am still having trouble grasping what i need my daw to do. I will read again and try to figure it out
The daw after all is said and done, spits out (generates) 30fps smpte which hits the A.S. and that tells the MCI where to" be/go" and at "what" speed, all the while referenced to the black burst (remembering the 2" was striped[off line] from the same burst). The word clock lines up your a/d's. It's like magic watching the 2" go after hitting the space bar.

I try to envision the burst generator as paddle boat water wheel that I'm facing as opposed to a linear something or other.

Ron Allaire, Skyline


P.S. What about tach?
Old 31st January 2007
  #14
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
As far as I know nuendo can read and generate code... So I have the zeta doing all the work and if I need to use video black then I use it.


BUt drbill i am still having trouble grasping what i need my daw to do. I will read again and try to figure it out
Numrologist, when I say the DAW needs to generate code, what I DO NOT mean is that it can stripe code. What I mean is that if you put your cursor down on the timeline at 01:02:30:27 and hit "play" that it starts generating code at that spot. If you jump to 01:04:27:14 and hit play, it starts generating from that spot. AND, every 29.97 or 30 frames or ?? frames (exactly), it passes 44,100 samples or 48,000 samples exactly...you get the idea.

Syncronization is very paradoxical. Actually pretty simple, but infinately complex and mind boggling in it's implementation. Like we said, GOOD LUCK. If you wanna play with the big boys, you're gonna have to learn and pay with the big boys. (Advice given to me years ago and I took it to heart. Now look....I'm explaining syncronization to YOU! LOL)

Cheers, bp
Old 31st January 2007
  #15
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
the problem is this, in order for this stuff to work right, you need to stripe smpte while resolved to the black burst, which is the master clock if you will. For the projects that you are now working on that smpte was already striped, I would make the daw the master and have the 2" chase it. When you start a project stripe tc on your deck with the zeta while resolved to the black burst, the concept is the bb clock that the zeta is resolved to makes it so the analog deck doesnt really wow and flutter. Then it is possible to make the 2" deck the master. Without striping resolved to burst this will not work. The big advantage of this method is its VERY stable with regards to jitter in your daw. If you don't already have tc on the 2" this is the way to do it. Once resolved tc is on your 2" you would then patch tc from the 2" into your daw midi interface which would then get position from the tc on the 2"
With your current projects Dr Bill's description is spot on. There is one other trick.
Someone on GS was selling a Rosendahl nanosync, buy it or an aardvark Time Sync II.
These particular boxes have a killer clock that allows for using the 2" as the master and not wrecking your daw audio. Those are the only two I know of that reliably do this.
FWIW I use the aardvark constantly and it's great I use it with 36 channels of I/O.
Lou, to be specific and not to confuse Numrologist, when you say being resolved to black - you mean the syncronizer and NOT the machine - correct? I was always taught to freewheel the machine while having the syncronizer locked and resolved to black. Then lock and resolve the machine to the syncronizer and all is good. I used to do post stuff where video's had to stay less than .5 frames accurate over 30 minutes and this always worked - AS LONG AS I was the one to stripe the tape and the video was laid off correctly. In this day of quicktime movies, I rarely do that anymore.

bp
Old 31st January 2007
  #16
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numrologst's Avatar
See the way ollie said it was consistent with what I have read before about the zeta 3... Which is the extremely simplistic approach to the sync.

Now I understand that the zeta actually controls the capstan.

And I am starting to get really clear on the word clock/blackburst part.... I need to stripe the tape with the smpte from the zeta that is resolved to video black. But this is not necessarily a must, but would definately make for a better sync.

Now I get that the smpte is basically locking the tape position... So when I am at point A on my daw, I am at that same point A on tape.

Now this is all becoming super clear.

But please bear with me guys, I am still trying to make a few more connections.

1) Since my tapes were not striped by me, I have no idea if they are striped correctly and/or striped while resolved to video black. Thus it seems that I would need to re-stripe the smpte once the zeta comes in... But this could cause my tape speed to hange upon sync... But basically for doing dumps in my situation it mostlikely won't be a problem. Then that's cool and I'll do that.

Since nuendo has the smpte generator, it will be able to send smpte to the zeta. So I send smpte from nuendo to the zeta which references this to the track striped smpte thus i have a positional sync... Then to sync the actual machine, the sync cable will control the capstan.

What I don't understand now is how or why to get nuendo to sync to the black. Obviously the how is to have something to convert the video black to word clock and have the apogees synced via the converted black-wc signal...

2) But why is this necessary if nuendo is the master. If nuendo is the master, it is not slewing so it is always going to be sampling consitently at my chosen samplerate and it is synced via the sync from the zeta...Just as the jh24 is synced with the zeta. I guess this is my only murky part left.
Old 31st January 2007
  #17
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by the way guys, thanks for walking me through this step by step.. this makes my life sooooo much easier. Thanks again
Old 31st January 2007
  #18
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oh and it seems as though the nanosync will allow me to generate the video black and allow me to clock the apogees via wordclock resolved to the video black.

So I would have the nanosync generation video black... I would send the video black signal to the zeta...

Then the zeta controls smpte and the nanosync clocks the apogees via word clock. Is that right?

I'll have to check and see if the zeta can generate the video black and output to wordclock, this would save me from tracking down a nanosync.

But it really seems necessary to have the blackburst as the master clock for everything. Will it be as good as my big ben as far as jitter goes upon making the dumps?
Old 31st January 2007
  #19
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
Now I understand that the zeta actually controls the capstan.
Yes. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
And I am starting to get really clear on the word clock/blackburst part.... I need to stripe the tape with the smpte from the zeta that is resolved to video black. But this is not necessarily a must, but would definately make for a better sync.
Nothing is a "must", and there are dozens of people that haven't a clue and do it wrong, but that doesn't mean that you should. Do it as above and you'll have much less stress and head scratching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
Now I get that the smpte is basically locking the tape position... So when I am at point A on my daw, I am at that same point A on tape.
Yes, again I thought that obvious. When any one machine or DAW is at "point A" all other machines should be at "point A" as well - when rolling that is. Actually, each machine is a little different and the syncronizer will "park" it in a spot that will allow it to chase and lock as quickly as possible when the master starts to generate TC again. So when you stop the master, that technically does not mean that the slave is parked in exactly the same spot. But once rolling, they will (should) end up in exactly the same places fairlly quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
Now this is all becoming super clear.
LOL! I'm glad. I've been doing it for 15+ years and end up getting bit quite often. At least I did when I had the JH. Like I said, it's basically a very simple concept with a couple hundred blind pitfalls waiting to eat you alive. ;-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
1) Since my tapes were not striped by me, I have no idea if they are striped correctly and/or striped while resolved to video black. Thus it seems that I would need to re-stripe the smpte once the zeta comes in... But this could cause my tape speed to hange upon sync...
Yes they may speed up or slow down or even slew trying to stay in sync without ever getting there. There is no way of knowing without trying. That's why this becomes such a wild card when getting tapes from other studios - especially when they may have striped with a MTP AV or something else not resolved to a stable source. Still feeling crystal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
What I don't understand now is how or why to get nuendo to sync to the black. Obviously the how is to have something to convert the video black to word clock and have the apogees synced via the converted black-wc signal...
I'm not intimately familiar with Nuendo, but I'll tell you how PT does it. PT must have an external syncronizer as well - the Sync i/0. It has (among other things) WC in, Video Reference (Black or House sync) in, and SMPTE in/out. Feed black to the Video Ref in, SMPTE out to the Adams, Place PT in "generate TC" mode and press play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
2) But why is this necessary if nuendo is the master. If nuendo is the master, it is not slewing so it is always going to be sampling consitently at my chosen samplerate and it is synced via the sync from the zeta...Just as the jh24 is synced with the zeta. I guess this is my only murky part left.
Theoretically - IF - everything is perfect and all is resolved to black, you are thinking that you should be able to use either the 2" or DAW as master - right? Well, theory's are great, but I've found much more stability using the DAW as master. It just sounds better IMO. PLUS, a DAW with locate points, bar #'s and markers is infinately more versatile than the ALIII.

My suggestion for you is still to get a post guy or someone who has a lot of experience locking, resolving and troubleshooting analog tape machines and video decks. Ask them what the difference between lock and resolve is and if they stare blankly at you.....look for someone else.
Old 31st January 2007
  #20
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I definately want to use the daw as the master. Everyone has convinved me of that, but I was just trying to figure out why the daw has to be synced to the video black if it is the master... It just seems to me that everything should sync to the master... But I guess the video black is the method of syncing the master.

So to make correct use of the sync... I would have had to track the songs while the sync is on, not just have the tape striped...

But...If i stripe the tape on internal sync, i don't understand why it would be different if i striped after the fact.

I guess the key is to track while the sync is going, but the second the zeta sync is not in the picture then i will be f'd
Old 31st January 2007
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
I definately want to use the daw as the master. Everyone has convinved me of that, but I was just trying to figure out why the daw has to be synced to the video black if it is the master... It just seems to me that everything should sync to the master... But I guess the video black is the method of syncing the master.

So to make correct use of the sync... I would have had to track the songs while the sync is on, not just have the tape striped...

But...If i stripe the tape on internal sync, i don't understand why it would be different if i striped after the fact.

I guess the key is to track while the sync is going, but the second the zeta sync is not in the picture then i will be f'd
A couple points from this post and an earlier one... As for needing black going to Nuendo, I guess in this case you said you have Apogees hooked up to it? So Nuendo is seeing clock from them (and multiple Apogees must all be seeing the same clock from somewhere - perhaps the big ben you mentioned?), so if you get black, or word clock derived from black into the Apogees, then you have Nuendo seeing sync. Not knowing Nuendo, its interface, or your setup, this is just an educated guess. Also, if you already have a big ben, it will take video black input I think, and distribute word clock from it. You can just get a black generator and not need a nanosync.

Next point about Nuendo needing to see back as well as the Zeta, and thus the JH-24 by proxy: Think of it as two cars on a street. SMPTE, the positional reference, will tell them where the starting line is. Both cars are in sync at the starting line. When you hit play, the starter's pistol goes off and both cars start driving, using their cruise control to try to stay at 40MPH. One hits cruise control and is actually travelling at 39 MPH, and the other hits cruise control, and is travelling at 41MPH. For a little while, they look like they're staying together, but soon you realize that one is getting ahead of the other. As time passes, they get further and further out of sync. They've lost sync because each is looking at it's own internal speed reference, in this case, cruise control, and each is slightly different even though they both intended to be going 40MPH.

When they come to the next red light, they arrive at slightly different times, but the stop line is the new positional reference (SMPTE), and when you hit play, they'll start in sync again (but still drift over time as before). However, Now, if you make changes after this second stop, and then play it back from the beginning, without stopping at that stop light this time, all your changes will be in the wrong place. If you hit stop and start again, they're in the right place, but start it from the beginning and play through, and they're in the wrong place. This can drive you crazy, and that's why you want both cars referencing the same cruise control so they stay side by side for the whole trip.
Old 31st January 2007
  #22
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
I definately want to use the daw as the master. Everyone has convinved me of that, but I was just trying to figure out why the daw has to be synced to the video black if it is the master... It just seems to me that everything should sync to the master... But I guess the video black is the method of syncing the master.

So to make correct use of the sync... I would have had to track the songs while the sync is on, not just have the tape striped...

But...If i stripe the tape on internal sync, i don't understand why it would be different if i striped after the fact.

I guess the key is to track while the sync is going, but the second the zeta sync is not in the picture then i will be f'd
????????????

Read my last paragraph on the previous post a couple of times and save yourself a lot of grief.

Don't try to assimilate and understand the why's and wherefore's right out of the box. Just get someone to help you get it right. You'll eventually understand and figure it out as you use it. You're in Dallas - there's lots of qualified tech's in that town that can get you on the right track.
Old 31st January 2007
  #23
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Jay, I like the car thing!

Num, maybe this will help. Think about multiple digital devices hooked together digitally, and all clocked internally. They may be DAW's or Consoles or ??? Clicks & pops right? Of course. Not all of the clocks turn 44,100 samples at the same rate do they? Nope, although they certainly pretend to, but in reality don't. Same thing with blackburst. Your best bet if you keep everything in house is to always have everything resolved to house sync. Never a problem, never a question. Always locked. Now when you get an outside tape in or send a tape out.......that's a whole new ballgame.
Old 31st January 2007
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Jay, I like the car thing!
Just send me 5 cents every time you use it..

Nah, I'm sure I can't be the first person to have thought of using a car analogy. And if I am, I should write a book!
Old 31st January 2007
  #25
Gear Maniac
 

quick question in the i have used horita blackburst generator in the past, seemed to work great, currently nothing like that in my setup, but a tape machine is probably on the way in the future what is a good blackburst to buy? I have used the horita and would use it again, but would like to know other options any suggestions, thanks
Old 31st January 2007
  #26
Lives for gear
I have had no issues at all with my convertors(myteks) being the clock master. I have not needed blackburst. You can do this and it certainly is good way to do this, but probably not required.

1. Tape is striped with SMPTE. Stripe the tape without having the daw and machine synced.
2. Record to tape as much as you like
3. Dump tape into daw or track more tracks on the DAW (now you have to sync the two)
4. Sync-> Daw puts out smpte to the Adam Smith as the master
4a. Tape machine is the slave set to external sync. If you have the correct cable connection, then the Adam Smith can control the DC motor of the machine.
4b. hit the play on daw and stop. Adam Smith checks location of tape to daw. Rewinds, or fast forwards appropriately to the start spot.
4c. Start daw again -> sync lock usually occurs within a second or so
4d. dump tape to DAW or start recording tracks in sync on daw.



Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
I definately want to use the daw as the master. Everyone has convinved me of that, but I was just trying to figure out why the daw has to be synced to the video black if it is the master... It just seems to me that everything should sync to the master... But I guess the video black is the method of syncing the master.

So to make correct use of the sync... I would have had to track the songs while the sync is on, not just have the tape striped...

But...If i stripe the tape on internal sync, i don't understand why it would be different if i striped after the fact.

I guess the key is to track while the sync is going, but the second the zeta sync is not in the picture then i will be f'd
Old 31st January 2007
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Lou, to be specific and not to confuse Numrologist, when you say being resolved to black - you mean the syncronizer and NOT the machine - correct? I was always taught to freewheel the machine while having the syncronizer locked and resolved to black. Then lock and resolve the machine to the syncronizer and all is good. I used to do post stuff where video's had to stay less than .5 frames accurate over 30 minutes and this always worked - AS LONG AS I was the one to stripe the tape and the video was laid off correctly. In this day of quicktime movies, I rarely do that anymore.

bp
thats right. And as we know if that wasn't the first step either the daw has to be the master or Time SyncII or Rosendahl Nanosync must be present
Old 31st January 2007
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
I have had no issues at all with my convertors(myteks) being the clock master. I have not needed blackburst. You can do this and it certainly is good way to do this, but probably not required.

1. Tape is striped with SMPTE. Stripe the tape without having the daw and machine synced.
2. Record to tape as much as you like
3. Dump tape into daw or track more tracks on the DAW (now you have to sync the two)
4. Sync-> Daw puts out smpte to the Adam Smith as the master
4a. Tape machine is the slave set to external sync. If you have the correct cable connection, then the Adam Smith can control the DC motor of the machine.
4b. hit the play on daw and stop. Adam Smith checks location of tape to daw. Rewinds, or fast forwards appropriately to the start spot.
4c. Start daw again -> sync lock usually occurs within a second or so
4d. dump tape to DAW or start recording tracks in sync on daw.
the only down side is if you're crazy like me and are recording and doing punches.
That process is better for mixing or transfering. If you want to work like you have one huge system either BB and syncronisers or the Rosendahl/ Time Sync
method are the real way to go
Old 1st February 2007
  #29
Lives for gear
 
numrologst's Avatar
im not in dallas right now, I'll have to fly someone in..If thats what i gotta do then that's what i gotta do.

Im gonna try it on my own first though...

But my last thing i still am unclear about is striping smpte on the tapes that have already been used without smpte... Should I just try it and see what happens? or are there other workarounds\?
Old 1st February 2007
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
im not in dallas right now, I'll have to fly someone in..If thats what i gotta do then that's what i gotta do.

Im gonna try it on my own first though...

But my last thing i still am unclear about is striping smpte on the tapes that have already been used without smpte... Should I just try it and see what happens? or are there other workarounds\?
If there's no tc on the 2", yes and use the method we described regarding resolving your Syncroniser and your system.
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