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Which mics for ORTF orchestral recording?
Old 3rd September 2015
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcartwright View Post
Harry-thanks! Very informative! I'll listen to the audio examples as soon as I dig myself out of this current project.

Thanks again,

Robert
If you're curious about how Schoeps mics can sound, this gives you a chance to sample them (not sure how 'cleaned up' these recordings might be, but you can at least make some comparisons between capsule types): Schoeps Microphone Showroom

You get the religiously orthodox ORTF, as well as some of those alternate/competing faith arrays represented here too !
Old 3rd September 2015
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Have you experimented with the variations on ORTF, such as NOS or DIN...or considered using wider cardioid patterns such Line Audio CM3 or Schoeps MK21 ?
Or are you a confirmed ORTF purist ?
The remote recordings I do in San Diego are community Concert Bands, University Orchestras and choirs, and ensembles, vocal/piano classical concerts, occasional Jazz big bands, etc. I usually have very limited space to set up in and very limited time to do it. Also, because remote recording is a smaller percentage of my business, I can't afford to buy a bunch of mics and stereo bars and experiment. The rooms I work with are large churches, university theaters and other local facilities. While some of them aren't horrible, I often have problems with air-conditioning noise, light buzz, etc. Therefore, omni mics don't work well. Also, large, heavy mic arrays or outrigger mics are problematic, both for time and audience safety. These are not big-budget recordings where I can come in with complex mic arrays and set up the day before. I have an hour to get up and record-ready. I often do have 1-4 spot mics, and sometimes a wireless or two, which makes time even tighter. I could go M/S, but I like the extra time-cues that ORTF affords, and I like that I don't have to insert an M/S decoder to properly hear what I'm doing. As much as I'm curious about NOS or DIN, I just don't have the time, money and opportunity to experiment. I know ORTF works and my clients keep coming back. If remote recording was all I did, it could well be different. Having said all the above, when I get time I will learn about NOS and DIN. Thanks for the heads up!

Best wishes,

Robert
Old 3rd September 2015
  #33
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johnsound's Avatar
I'm confused by this: surely the Ambisonic functions of the Nagra are for closely spaced (near coincident) tetrahedral arrays, the A option being for A-Format (capsule) outputs of microphones like the Soundfield SPS200 or the CoreSound TetraMic, and the B-Format for the more expensive Soundfields with control units, like the ST450 and the MkV. I'm not sure what sort of result you'd be getting by feeding them from a Schoeps double ORTF set up, but the matrixing and filtering inside the Nagra will be doing some really odd things with the image, I would think. The Schoeps system is for basic four channel surround: it's not an Ambisonic set-up.

Still, if you like what you're getting, I suppose that's fine, but I'm pretty sure it's not what's intended by Nagra.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Regards,

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith View Post
I put the 4 mics into a Nagra VI which has built in a "Ambisonic" converter to a stereo mix. (i.e.on Nagra VI there is a ambisonic mode where channels 1-4 are mic in, channels 7&8 are mixed/recorded based on the ambisonic algorithm options chosen). My only real problem with the ambisonic mix modes is I'd prefer channels 1-4 recorded without processing and 7&8 with the algorithm, but what it does is "kind of" do a M/S record on 1-4 with 4 components and the final 7&8 mixed output.
Old 3rd September 2015
  #34
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 

I really don't have the experience to weigh in on the Schoeps/Senn/Etc. question in cardioids, but I do frequently have to set up microphone arrays in less time than I'd like. And based on that, I'd say that once the OP makes his choice, he might want to pick up one of these nifty 3-D printed ORTF holders for the particular model he settles on (and maybe even a set for those Neumanns, too):

ortf - Shapeways 3D Printing Search Results

They're made by a fellow who frequents Gearslutz and are a very clever idea. You just pop the mics in and align their bases with the back end of the holder, and you have a perfect ORTF setup - a great timesaver. He also makes 'em for NOS, DIN, etc., and is very responsive about adding variants for different makes and models of microphone.
Old 3rd September 2015
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight View Post
I really don't have the experience to weigh in on the Schoeps/Senn/Etc. question in cardioids, but I do frequently have to set up microphone arrays in less time than I'd like. And based on that, I'd say that once the OP makes his choice, he might want to pick up one of these nifty 3-D printed ORTF holders for the particular model he settles on (and maybe even a set for those Neumanns, too):

ortf - Shapeways 3D Printing Search Results

They're made by a fellow who frequents Gearslutz and are a very clever idea. You just pop the mics in and align their bases with the back end of the holder, and you have a perfect ORTF setup - a great timesaver. He also makes 'em for NOS, DIN, etc., and is very responsive about adding variants for different makes and models of microphone.
A VERY cool idea! I can't see how they attach to a mic stand, however, and I would worry about the strength of the plastic material, but I will look into them further when I get the time. Any one have personal experience with these?

Thanks,

Robert
Old 3rd September 2015
  #36
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcartwright View Post
A VERY cool idea! I can't see how they attach to a mic stand, however, and I would worry about the strength of the plastic material, but I will look into them further when I get the time. Any one have personal experience with these?

Thanks,

Robert
Ah, you attach them to the stand by inserting the central post part into a shockmount. The post is roughly the diameter of an SDC so it'll fit in a wide variety of them. I have ORTF and DIN versions for my Gefell M300s, and have used them a few times with good success. They seem reasonably robust; I've given them a moderate stress test (twisting, tugging, pressing, etc.) and they did fine. We'll have to see how they handle aging and all that, of course, but they seem trustworthy (especially for $35).

You can get more user opinions here:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...highlight=ortf

I don't always use ORTF. But when I do...
Old 4th September 2015
  #37
Gear Head
You might want to consider a pair of Schoeps Mk.5 caps with CMC5-U preamps. You get omni and cards in a single cap, making them very flexible. Fantastic cap--I have three. Both patterns have a slight HF boost.
Old 4th September 2015
  #38
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PatrickFaith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsound View Post
.... The Schoeps system is for basic four channel surround: it's not an Ambisonic set-up.

Still, if you like what you're getting, I suppose that's fine, but I'm pretty sure it's not what's intended by Nagra.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Regards,

John
The A mode on Nagra set at (LF,RF,LB,RB) does ok and has a nice effect if I don't have any time:
Channel 1: W = (LFU + RFD + LBD + RBU) / √6
Channel 2: X = LFU - RFD + LBD – RBU
Channel 3: Y = LFU + RFD – LBD – RBU
Channel 4 : Z = LFU - RFD – LBD + RBU

Unfortunately, like what your saying, if that doesn't sound good I need to mix the mic's later so I turn off the ambisonic mode to record the mics in separate tracks. Still, out of the box, if I plug the scheops surround into the nagra on the A mode lf/rf/lb/rb it sounds great(a bit "churchy"). But if I'm going to be working the recording later i just monitor with LF +LB + RB, RF +LB+RB ... which also just immediately sounds solid.

Any hints on how to better do this are much appreciated though

Last edited by PatrickFaith; 4th September 2015 at 03:48 AM..
Old 4th September 2015
  #39
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcartwright View Post
I know ORTF works and my clients keep coming back. If remote recording was all I did, it could well be different. Having said all the above, when I get time I will learn about NOS and DIN. Thanks for the heads up!

Best wishes,

Robert
I take your point about setup and experimentation time being short at a typical concert, but you can create an ORTF, NOS and DIN template from a piece of A4 cardboard, a pencil and a ruler !

I don't know how you're getting your 110 degrees/17 cms precision on site at the concert, but I assume you're using a short spacer bar for both mics ? You can adjust that same pair to NOS and DIN spec within 30 seconds or less, if you have such a template for each array.

Experimentation can be done at home even, out of the back lawn...just walk around each array talking or holding a radio and you'll soon get a feel for how each responds to the 180 degree sound field.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachme...f_template.jpg
Old 4th September 2015
  #40
[QUOTE=studer58;11309340]I take your point about setup and experimentation time being short at a typical concert, but you can create an ORTF, NOS and DIN template from a piece of A4 cardboard, a pencil and a ruler !

I don't know how you're getting your 110 degrees/17 cms precision on site at the concert, but I assume you're using a short spacer bar for both mics ? You can adjust that same pair to NOS and DIN spec within 30 seconds or less, if you have such a template for each array.

Experimentation can be done at home even, out of the back lawn...just walk around each array talking or holding a radio and you'll soon get a feel for how each responds to the 180 degree sound field.
----------------------
Thank you-when I get time I will read up and experiment. I'm currently using a Shure A27M stereo mic mount and a protractor. It works well, but I'd rather have an ORTF (or DIN, etc.) mount that made all the checking and adjustments unnecessary. That's why I was interested in the 3D-printed mounts that were mentioned here.

Thanks again!

Robert
Old 4th September 2015
  #41
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcartwright View Post
Thank you-when I get time I will read up and experiment. I'm currently using a Shure A27M stereo mic mount and a protractor. It works well, but I'd rather have an ORTF (or DIN, etc.) mount that made all the checking and adjustments unnecessary. That's why I was interested in the 3D-printed mounts that were mentioned here.

Thanks again!

Robert
For quick ease of use - I second the suggestion to use the 3D printed mounts from Shapeways. I have one for Sennheiser e914s. A mount for these mics wasn't on the initial list. I provided pics/measurements and one was designed/made lickety split. I am very happy with it - super easy to use.

I use a Shure donut to mount (A53M). The ORTF mount slides into the donut, which attaches to a mic stand. The ORTF mount I'm talking about is designed so that when the "S" logos are aligned with the rectangular cutouts, the mics are in right spots for angle/distance.

This is a good solution for the specific mics listed on the shapeways website. However, for Schoeps mics, I prefer the schoeps ORTF mount I noted earlier in this thread as it has a smaller profile (only caps are on mount, mic bodies are not up on the array).

If you later decide to experiment, I recommend the Grace Spacebars. But looks like this isn't where you're going at the moment.

-Tom
Old 4th September 2015
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy View Post
For quick ease of use - I second the suggestion to use the 3D printed mounts from Shapeways. I have one for Sennheiser e914s. A mount for these mics wasn't on the initial list. I provided pics/measurements and one was designed/made lickety split. I am very happy with it - super easy to use.

I use a Shure donut to mount (A53M). The ORTF mount slides into the donut, which attaches to a mic stand. The ORTF mount I'm talking about is designed so that when the "S" logos are aligned with the rectangular cutouts, the mics are in right spots for angle/distance.

This is a good solution for the specific mics listed on the shapeways website. However, for Schoeps mics, I prefer the schoeps ORTF mount I noted earlier in this thread as it has a smaller profile (only caps are on mount, mic bodies are not up on the array).

If you later decide to experiment, I recommend the Grace Spacebars. But looks like this isn't where you're going at the moment.

-Tom
-----------------------
Hi Tom:

Great suggestions-thanks! I'm still deciding which way to go on mic selection. I sent all 4 of my KM84s out for refurb, so regardless of future mic purchases I will get a 3D mic mount for them and probably the Shure donut you suggest. Now if only I could decide on which mics, Senn MKH8040 or Schoeps with card. capsules...

Thanks again,

Robert
Old 5th September 2015
  #43
Get a Superlux S502. Search youtube and there're several clips showing the sound quality.
Old 5th September 2015
  #44
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9sbean View Post
Get a Superlux S502. Search youtube and there're several clips showing the sound quality.
Youtube and sound quality shouldn't be used in the same sentance.
Old 5th September 2015
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackHenry View Post
Youtube and sound quality shouldn't be used in the same sentance.
Any qualified plateform suggested? What will the recorded media be streamed through?
Old 5th September 2015
  #46
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackHenry View Post
Youtube and sound quality shouldn't be used in the same sentance.
S502 as main pair, via MeTube to avoid offense to purists.....it's not a fade in--- the trumpeter walks on playing. Not saying it's a great recording, but this is the mic in naked guise, no added reverb, spot mics deliberately omitted so you get the flavour of the main.

The S502 is so much cheaper than the other contenders being bandied around here, but it punches well above it's weight. Weak point is manufacture QC control..eg I had to buy a replacement capsule within a year of purchase. Solution, buy 2 or 3 and you'll still be way ahead in the price stakes, and have enough 'spare parts' if transplants are required.

Caveat emptor in other words...but still a quiet achiever, maybe even a true bargain ?
Attached Files

trumpet solo.mp3 (2.12 MB, 2452 views)


Last edited by studer58; 5th September 2015 at 04:57 PM..
Old 6th September 2015
  #47
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9sbean View Post
Any qualified plateform suggested? What will the recorded media be streamed through?
Here is an interesting project by Ryan Maguire in relation to the 'Ghost' left behind from MP3 & MP4 codecs. The video and audio on this page consist of what is left after the compression algorithms have run.

There are further links on that page to the project information and audio samples. Plus a link to the full paper.
Old 8th September 2015
  #48
Gear Maniac
 
bewareofdogs's Avatar
 

My favorite sdc pair for this task are the DPA 4011, for their true-to-life representation of the source.
These are among the few directional microphones that retain their tonality all the way around the microphone's operational axes.
Paired with a tube preamp is aural nirvana.
Check this old shoot-out of a jazz piano recording.
Hope this helps.
Old 18th September 2015
  #49
Well, I had Tom Onofrio refurbish all 4 of my KM-84s (haven't gotten them back yet), and I purchased an KM84 ORTF mount from Shapeways and a Shure A53M shock mount. Thanks to all for the suggestions! I will still probably purchase a new mic pair soon. I've listened to the suggested website demos, but am looking for a site that compares the Senn. MKH8040, Scheops with Mk4 caps and DPA 4011A mics directly in the same room as ORTF, and with the same program material (a variety, including orchestras and choirs.

Thanks again,

Robert

Robert Cartwright
perfectwavedigital.com/
San Diego, CA
619-265-2528
Old 9th October 2015
  #50
Lives for gear
Patrick,
The Nagra VI always records inputs 1-6 in raw form, without processing, when you have the ambisonic or MS monitoring matrix enabled. You can optionally record the output of the Ambisonic or MS matrix to channels 7 & 8.

Read here from my post #290 onward. I thought the same as you and realized where I was going wrong.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...l#post11364882


Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith View Post
Schoeps has a rig where they put two ORTF pairs back to back (called a Schoeps ORTF surround bar). I put the 4 mics into a Nagra VI which has built in a "Ambisonic" converter to a stereo mix. (i.e.on Nagra VI there is a ambisonic mode where channels 1-4 are mic in, channels 7&8 are mixed/recorded based on the ambisonic algorithm options chosen). My only real problem with the ambisonic mix modes is I'd prefer channels 1-4 recorded without processing and 7&8 with the algorithm, but what it does is "kind of" do a M/S record on 1-4 with 4 components and the final 7&8 mixed output.

skip in to about 2 minutes on this test: playing around with sound | PUDLS
Old 14th October 2015
  #51
Gear Addict
IMHO - Whatever you do, keep the KM84's. They are EXTREMELY useful and will only continue to increase in value.

I like Schoeps. I have a pair and nothing beats them in an ORTF config.

My 2Β’.
Danny
Old 21st October 2015
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcartwright View Post
Well, I had Tom Onofrio refurbish all 4 of my KM-84s (haven't gotten them back yet), and I purchased an KM84 ORTF mount from Shapeways and a Shure A53M shock mount. Thanks to all for the suggestions! I will still probably purchase a new mic pair soon. I've listened to the suggested website demos, but am looking for a site that compares the Senn. MKH8040, Scheops with Mk4 caps and DPA 4011A mics directly in the same room as ORTF, and with the same program material (a variety, including orchestras and choirs.

Thanks again,

Robert

Robert Cartwright
perfectwavedigital.com/
San Diego, CA
619-265-2528
------------------------------------------------

I finally got to use two of the four KM84s that Tom Onofrio refurbished on a 80-piece concert band recording. He put in new capacitors and removed some resistors. Now the mics have about 6 dB more gain, and sound both clearer and richer. It cost me $1120.00 for the four (the capsules were fine). I'm pleased-money well spent. I still am researching a new pair, however. I wish there were a way to A/B my KM84s against the Schoeps and Senns and DPAs in the concert setting. The demos on the web are interesting, but no way to compare apples to apples. If anyone knows or a URL that would actually use all these on a concert band or symphony orchestra, please let me know.

I also got the Shapeways 3D-printed ORTF mic holder for the KM84s with the Shure shockmount. It works great and saves time in set up. A great addition!

Thanks to all for the very appreciated advice!

Robert Cartwright
perfectwavedigital.com
San Diego, CA
Old 21st October 2015
  #53
RPC
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
IMHO - Whatever you do, keep the KM84's.
I'll second this. I had access to a pair back when I was learning the trade. Great capsule, nice vintage electronics - wonderful for strings, especially if they need a bit of sweetening.
Old 19th June 2020
  #54
Lives for gear
 

Robert, I'm in almost exactly the same boat you were in five years ago, trying to choose between the 8040's or the CMC64's (posted in another thread also). So I'm curious as to whether you ever made a decision on this, and what your conclusions have been.

Like you, my location recording is a bit sporadic and with semi-professional groups and below, so I was interested in the earlier comments about the 8040's maybe not being the best choice for that level of performance.
Old 19th June 2020
  #55
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Plush's Avatar
I highly recommend the Schoeps MSTC ORTF stereo mic. It is a French Radio mic with the exact specs for ORTF.

Most arrays that aim towards ORTF pick up are not really correct for ORTF.

The Schoeps version it correct.

(BTW---Originally ORTF was specified to use hyper-cardioid mics)
Old 19th June 2020
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I highly recommend the Schoeps MSTC ORTF stereo mic. It is a French Radio mic with the exact specs for ORTF.

Most arrays that aim towards ORTF pick up are not really correct for ORTF.

The Schoeps version it correct.

(BTW---Originally ORTF was specified to use hyper-cardioid mics)
Thanks, Plush. I can't really justify the loss of flexibility for this big an investment, but I assume that since this uses standard MK4 capsules, proper ORTF placement can yield identical results, no?

Interesting about the hyper factoid. First time I've heard that.
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