The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Can you apply processing on the send tracks from a separate buss?
Old 25th December 2019
  #1
Gear Nut
 
OrphicTrench's Avatar
Can you apply processing on the send tracks from a separate buss?

Hey there! Merry Xmas everyone!

This may sound like a dumb question, so I sure hope there's a simple solution. That's why I ask!

Let's say I have a compressor on my drum buss. Is it possible for it to compress not only the different elements on the drum buss but also the respective sends that are set on each separate element (mostly reverb and delay)?

Right now the compressor is affecting only the dry sounds, not the mix of dry and wet sounds, which keeps me from getting everything glued together with a nice slightly compressed ambiance/room sound with a subtle pumping.

A friend told me not to use the sends at all, but I wonder if there's a way around it. Also, this makes it more difficult to do the Abbey Road reverb trick, because I would have to copy each track, EQ the copy, put a reverb on it 100% wet and then dial it back in (which is a lot of extra steps if you have 10 or so drum tracks).

I also tried sending the out of each send to the drum buss, but the signal gets there dry, which is a bummer.

Any ideas on how to fix this?

TL;DR: Is it possible to apply processing on the sends from a separate buss? How?
Old 25th December 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post

I also tried sending the out of each send to the drum buss, but the signal gets there dry, which is a bummer.
You don't share your setup. I can only guess.
I must assume that you with "each send" mean the returns? Inside a drum rack or? You must have made a mistake as if you're sending to the returns it doesn't matter where the signal goes, once wet it should remain wet. Likely you're not routing what you think you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post
Is it possible for it to compress not only the different elements on the drum buss but also the respective sends that are set on each separate element (mostly reverb and delay)?
In a drum buss you're affecting the sum of "the different elements " not each element.

I don't understand what you want with a "different buss," but you can use any number of busses. You do need to route them properly. Maybe something like the below?

Here's one routing example that might fit you (or not). Please note the details such as the disabling of the send back to the return that is feeding it (or you risk getting phasing issues as well as adding latency for no good reason):



With this routing the drum rack track and the return goes to the "drum buss" track. The sends from the rack goes out to the return instead of the rack output. It doesn't matter where you place the effect for this to work, but if you place it in the return track also other tracks can send to it.
Old 25th December 2019
  #3
Gear Nut
 
OrphicTrench's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
You don't share your setup. I can only guess.
I must assume that you with "each send" mean the returns? Inside a drum rack or? You must have made a mistake as if you're sending to the returns it doesn't matter where the signal goes, once wet it should remain wet. Likely you're not routing what you think you are.

In a drum buss you're affecting the sum of "the different elements " not each element.

I don't understand what you want with a "different buss," but you can use any number of busses. You do need to route them properly. Maybe something like the below?

Here's one routing example that might fit you (or not). Please note the details such as the disabling of the send back to the return that is feeding it (or you risk getting phasing issues as well as adding latency for no good reason):



With this routing the drum rack track and the return goes to the "drum buss" track. The sends from the rack goes out to the return instead of the rack output. It doesn't matter where you place the effect for this to work, but if you place it in the return track also other tracks can send to it.
Hey there, thanks a lot for your reply.

Sorry if I'm not using the right words, I don't get a chance to speak about routings and such very often. By "each send" I meant the returns, yes.

As I'm mixing some stuff that came from another DAW, I have a lot of mixeddown audio tracks and little to no midi, so I'm not using a drum rack.

So I'm sending signal to the returns, but I would like that signal, after being processed by the returns, to come back to the drum buss for some good ol' buss compression that includes the reverbs and delays. Is this more clear? My buss isn't sending anything to the returns, but the different audiotracks that are grouped in the buss are.

I hadn't turned the new "return buss" to "monitor in", that's why the wet sound of the returns disappeared when I set the audio of each return to the "new buss return" track. Now it seems to be working, although I'm not sure if this is the optimal way of doing it.

Here's a screenshot of my setup. Hope this helps. Please note that there are a couple of return tracks that are not being used and that I'll probably wipe off or use for something else once I'm done with drum processing.



I didn't quite get what you meant by the phasing issues. Would you mind explaining a little more?
Old 25th December 2019
  #4
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post

I didn't quite get what you meant by the phasing issues. Would you mind explaining a little more?
If the send back to the return is enabled 1 sample of latency is added in order to processing to work. This can create phasing issues as the returns will be 1 sample late. If the send back to the return disabled this doesn't happen. Unless you intend to create a loop that feeds back on itself it's always safer to disable sends going back to a return that the sending track takes a signal from. You can still send to other returns that aren't going back to the sending track, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post
So I'm sending signal to the returns, but I would like that signal, after being processed by the returns, to come back to the drum buss for some good ol' buss compression that includes the reverbs and delays. Is this more clear? My buss isn't sending anything to the returns, but the different audiotracks that are grouped in the buss are.
OK, that's more straightforward and is more how my actual routings look. Your Drum Buss return serves no purpose that I can see though, unless you want to treat the returns differently than the main signal.

One thing I do instead, is to use a "Main Buss", that is the single track that sends to "Master". All my buss tracks, all my returns as well as any tracks not sending to a buss, send their signals to this "Main Buss".

This gives me the opportunity to add additional processing for all tracks, not in the master. In the Master I put analytical tools and speaker emulation that I don't want in my exports, so I export the "Main Buss" and never the master.

This basic flexible set-up serves me really well and makes it easy to get a cohesive sound.

You first get compression of what goes into the drum buss, then that signal is mixed with all other tracks into the master, where I typically add more compression. This makes more sense to me as I use my returns for all instruments. Because compression multiplies I add very gentle amounts in each step, basically just kissing the transients in the Main.
Old 25th December 2019
  #5
Gear Nut
 
OrphicTrench's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
If the send back to the return is enabled 1 sample of latency is added in order to processing to work. This can create phasing issues as the returns will be 1 sample late. If the send back to the return disabled this doesn't happen. Unless you intend to create a loop that feeds back on itself it's always safer to disable sends going back on tracks that take a signal from a return. You can still send to other returns that aren't going back to the sending track, of course.

OK, that's more straightforward and is more how my actual routings look. Your Drum Buss return serves no purpose that I can see though, unless you want to treat the returns differently than the main signal.

One thing I do instead, is to use a "Main Buss", that is the single track that sends to "Master". All my buss tracks, all my returns as well as any tracks not sending to a buss, send their signals to this "Main Buss".

This gives me the opportunity to add additional processing for all tracks, not in the master. In the Master I put analytical tools and speaker emulation that I don't want in my exports, so I export the "Main Buss" and never the master.

This basic flexible set-up serves me really well and makes it easy to get a cohesive sound.
Hey Mikael, thanks so much for your advice! I'm happy we understand each other now

How do I make sure that the send back to the return is disabled? I don't think I've seen this before.

And yes, you got it right, the Drum Buss Return serves no other purpose than to feed the Drum Buss with all of the return signals at once. It's just an extra track that makes routing easier.

The problem is that if I send the returns signal directly to the Drum Buss, Ableton thinks it's for sidechaining and links it automatically to a plugin. I haven't found a way to send the returns as simple audio yet. Here's an example:

Old 25th December 2019
  #6
Gear Nut
 
OrphicTrench's Avatar
The downside is that if I want to have some parallel compression on my drum buss, the copy of my drum buss won't have the return inputs, which is kind of missing the whole point of this. Is there any way around this?
Old 25th December 2019
  #7
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post
How do I make sure that the send back to the return is disabled? I don't think I've seen this before.
Either Right-click (Ctrl-click on a Mac, if right-click isn't active) and select "Disable Send" (or "Disable All"), or alternatively just select the send button in question and choose "Disable Send" from the Edit menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post

The problem is that if I send the returns signal directly to the Drum Buss, Ableton thinks it's for sidechaining and links it automatically to a plugin. I haven't found a way to send the returns as simple audio yet. Here's an example:

Just click the lower menu and select "Track in" as the destination:
Old 25th December 2019
  #8
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post
The downside is that if I want to have some parallel compression on my drum buss, the copy of my drum buss won't have the return inputs, which is kind of missing the whole point of this. Is there any way around this?
That your effect gets a signal isn't a problem as there is no potential endless loop created as the effect isn't using sends, is it?

It's the track itself that you don't want to make a part of such a loop. Just the send to the re-routed return being enabled is sufficient for triggering this. It doesn't have to be sending anything.
Old 26th December 2019
  #9
Gear Nut
 
OrphicTrench's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
That your effect gets a signal isn't a problem as there is no potential endless loop created as the effect isn't using sends, is it?

It's the track itself that you don't want to make a part of such a loop. Just the send to the re-routed return being enabled is sufficient for triggering this. It doesn't have to be sending anything.
Sounds good, thanks.

The "Track in" option doesn't appear if I set the "Audio To" on Drum Buss. It appears on other channels, but not on all of them. I double checked and the only two routing options I had were the names of the two plugins that I have on the buss.

Last edited by OrphicTrench; 26th December 2019 at 04:16 PM..
Old 26th December 2019
  #10
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphicTrench View Post
The "Track in" option doesn't appear on the Drum Buss. It appears on other channels, but not on all of them. I double checked and the only two routing options I had were the names of the two plugins that I have on the buss.
If so, it's possibly something with the settings of that Drum Buss that is affecting this. Try to make a fresh sibling not in a group and route to that as a test. When you got that working remodel all your other routings according ot this new buss and see if the same issue appears again at any step.

I've encountered this issue, but I'm not sure what I did to fix it. Probably something along the lines above though. My main source for learning the Live mixer is by testing stuff and using null tests to discover what you cannot always hear. I haven't made a comparison, but Live 10 seems to be more straightforward than 9, even as they're quite similar. I'd like to get into grouping a little more. I tend to not use groups that much, but last night I did when I needed a submix of multiple samples.
Old 26th December 2019
  #11
Gear Nut
 
OrphicTrench's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
If so, it's possibly something with the settings of that Drum Buss that is affecting this. Try to make a fresh sibling not in a group and route to that as a test. When you got that working remodel all your other routings according ot this new buss and see if the same issue appears again at any step.

I've encountered this issue, but I'm not sure what I did to fix it. Probably something along the lines above though. My main source for learning the Live mixer is by testing stuff and using null tests to discover what you cannot always hear. I haven't made a comparison, but Live 10 seems to be more straightforward than 9, even as they're quite similar. I'd like to get into grouping a little more. I tend to not use groups that much, but last night I did when I needed a submix of multiple samples.
Most of the times, I only use groups to glue things together using some buss compression, but it's also extremely helpful when using automation for whole sections of a song (boosting or ducking volume, reverb level, etc.). It's also easier to make a filter sweep on a build-up if you have the buss channel already well set up.

I will experiment further. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out!
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump