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Ableton external audio effect delay compensation
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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XAXAU's Avatar
Ableton external audio effect delay compensation

Sorry for asking such a noobey question but is the delay compensation fixed for Ableton 10 or are they still in the Stone Age?

Cubase has ping etc

I apologize if this has been done to death

Cheers
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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mmahan40's Avatar
 

Still in the stone age unfortunately, which is incredibly frustrating. I'm pretty sure it's the only DAW without properly functioning PDC.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
Sorry for asking such a noobey question but is the delay compensation fixed for Ableton 10 or are they still in the Stone Age?s
You just need to use it as designed. Other DAWs seem to have more advanced PDC though. What is there works as expected, but there are some different implementations that seems to bewilder some people. And not others. Ableton should fix the design so everyone could use PDC fully in Live. At the moment, to be able to do so means you must read the manual and understand what it says in two different but related areas. These are Delay Compensation and Recording placement according to monitor settings. Usually when people complain about PDC in Live, they mean the latter. More often than not they have misunderstood how Live works.

At any rate, I haven't encountered any PDC issues I couldn't solve. This with hardware sync, recording multiple tracks with vocal or real time instrument recording. I know other people assume there is a problem and misuse Live instead of using it as designed. I blame Ableton for this.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmahan40 View Post
Still in the stone age unfortunately, which is incredibly frustrating. I'm pretty sure it's the only DAW without properly functioning PDC.
You're totally overstating the case presenting no problem description. I don't know what you mean with "properly functioning PDC", but I think a more balanced view would be to suggest that a few other DAWs have more advanced implementations. But these Daws are not Live. There are multiple levels to this issue. It can be proven PDC works as expected (based on manual statements, not wishful thinking) in Live.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
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XAXAU's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
You just need to use it as designed. Other DAWs seem to have more advanced PDC though. What is there works as expected, but there are some different implementations that seems to bewilder some people. And not others. Ableton should fix the design so everyone could use PDC fully in Live. At the moment, to be able to do so means you must read the manual and understand what it says in two different but related areas. These are Delay Compensation and Recording placement according to monitor settings. Usually when people complain about PDC in Live, they mean the latter. More often than not they have misunderstood how Live works.

At any rate, I haven't encountered any PDC issues I couldn't solve. This with hardware sync, recording multiple tracks with vocal or real time instrument recording. I know other people assume there is a problem and misuse Live instead of using it as designed. I blame Ableton for this.
It works flawlessly for almost all plugins

I have no idea what to do with my hardware stuff though as there is no PDC for that in ableton

“External Instrument and External Audio Effect: As these devices send and/or receive audio from outside Live, they will delay the audio by the Overall Latency amount in preferences. In addition, when setting the 'Hardware Latency' slider to any amount other than zero, this will add extra latency.”

So I set the track latency to minus whatever latency is set in the preferences or what is your solution to this dilemma?

I’m only using analog hardware processors that don’t have any delay to talk about

Cubase can ping the roundtrip delay

Last edited by XAXAU; 3 weeks ago at 06:21 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post

So I set the track latency to minus whatever latency is set in the preferences or what is your solution to this dilemma?

I’m only using analog hardware processors that don’t have any delay to talk about
Hardware latency. Never use Track delay, if that was what you meant?
You likely need to do the "Setting Up audio I/O" and "Driver error compensation" lessons in Help Menu > Help View > Audio I/O. The latter says it's for setting up hardware in the preferences, but the same values for that hardware setup will apply to "External Instrument" and "External Audio Effects" and its Hardware latency setting. You'll find ample info in the Help View lessons as well as in the manual about this.
From Help View:
Quote:
"Driver Error Compensation is only relevant in a Direct Monitoring scenario…
[Driver Error Compensation] shouldn't be confused with Plug-in Delay Compensation.
From 24.4 External Instrument
Quote:
" Since external devices can introduce latency that Live cannot automatically detect, you can manually compensate for any delays by adjusting the Hardware Latency slider. The button
next to this slider allows you to set your latency compensation amount in either milliseconds or samples.

Any latency introduced by devices within Live will be compensated for automatically, so the slider will be disabled when using the External Instrument Device to route internally. Latency adjustments when routing to ReWire devices will probably not be necessary, as most ReWire- enabled programs also compensate automatically. But if you feel that something is “off“ in the timing of your set, try adjusting this slider."
You can also use negative values.
Make sure you understand the differences with having monitor set "off" (for synced machines and when monitoring in your audio interface, i e sending incoming to your main out)) vs "auto", i e when playing an instrument and mainly monitoring this via Live (any latency due to delay compensation will affect how you play, which Live assumes when monitor is not "off"). The objective is for playback to sound exactly the same as when you're recording. If things slide around adjustments are needed.

From "14.1 Monitoring"
Quote:
"Monitoring can be turned off altogether by choosing the Off option. This is useful when recording acoustic instruments which are monitored “through the air,“ when using an external mixing console for monitoring or when using an audio hardware interface with a “direct monitoring“ option that bypasses the computer so as to avoid latency. Generally, it is preferable to work with an audio interface that allows for negligible latencies (a few milliseconds). If you are recording into Live with monitoring set to “Off,“ you may want to make the Audio Preferences’ Overall Latency adjustment, which is described in the built-in program tutorial on setting up the Audio Preferences."
What's not mentioned here, but elsewhere in the manual (I believe) is that "auto" will assume you're playing early according to the current latency setting whereas "off" will not. A synced machine therefore may be recorded off when recording with monitor set to "auto". All recordings in Live (9 as well as 10) I've done have verified this time and time again for me.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Yeah, and as much as I know about digital audio and been doing this forever, I don't know how ableton confuses this explanation to apparently everyone and makes it a headache with different sets of the manuals or in different sections.

I wanna record a guitar. I play it. Is it adjusting for hw interface adjustment? well, if i have track monitoring to "off" and I am not using any plugins or whatnot... i guess not? (and I long ago stopped bothering with audio interface settings in that regard as at least earlier versions were a moving target or were in my experience depending on buff size etc...)... it's a real pita, and sometimes a real inspiration killer when you are chasing buffer+interface correction and shoot, did i change the buffer for this performance?

I don't seem to have this problem in PT or Logic etc.. Ableton has to explain this better and be more clear about it, and yes, I have read the manuals and write it down and its still confusing and heaven forbid you are using an aggregate device or whatever...

i have post it notes on the wall reminding of things, but again, i don't remember this being a headache with other daws like this. i do blame ableton for failing to properly explain or clearly explain what they mean, as PDC and interface error compensation are two different things, and judging by this thread, there is a lotta confusion...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
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XAXAU's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Hardware latency. Never use Track delay, if that was what you meant?
You likely need to do the "Setting Up audio I/O" and "Driver error compensation" lessons in Help Menu > Help View > Audio I/O. The latter says it's for setting up hardware in the preferences, but the same values for that hardware setup will apply to "External Instrument" and "External Audio Effects" and its Hardware latency setting. You'll find ample info in the Help View lessons as well as in the manual about this.
From Help View:


From 24.4 External Instrument

You can also use negative values.
Make sure you understand the differences with having monitor set "off" (for synced machines and when monitoring in your audio interface, i e sending incoming to your main out)) vs "auto", i e when playing an instrument and mainly monitoring this via Live (any latency due to delay compensation will affect how you play, which Live assumes when monitor is not "off"). The objective is for playback to sound exactly the same as when you're recording. If things slide around adjustments are needed.

From "14.1 Monitoring"


What's not mentioned here, but elsewhere in the manual (I believe) is that "auto" will assume you're playing early according to the current latency setting whereas "off" will not. A synced machine therefore may be recorded off when recording with monitor set to "auto". All recordings in Live (9 as well as 10) I've done have verified this time and time again for me.
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, this has cleared up a lot for me

I don’t have any delay in my hardware at all it seems, the waveform comes back slightly slewed in the onset of the recorded copy when roundtripping analog (zooming in on frames, create clip fades is unticked) but I doubt anyone can hear the difference

Ableton seems to be very tight indeed, not at all like the guy at my gym told me
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