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Is Ableton 10 Worth The Upgrade?
Old 21st June 2019
  #1
Gear Addict
 

Is Ableton 10 Worth The Upgrade?

I am using Ableton 9 as I bought it on an educational license when I was in school and have been using it ever since. I really believe in purchasing and supporting software companies as I know how much time and money it takes to write these programs. Ableton 9 is incredibly stable and I am very happy with it. I want to know if you think Ableton 10 is worth upgrading or I should stay with 9 for now. I looked at the new features and it doesn't look like anything too exciting. I don't use their synths so what's the point?

I was looking at Bitwig but they seem to be expensive and stingy with updates. They don't even offer a discount upgrade path from Ableton and contacted them via email to inquire about this. I also didn't like the response email I got back from them. They seem like a group of developers who don't have the customer service and business side experience.

I used FL Studio for a while but I don't like the workflow compared to Ableton. However, I do like the fact that FL Studio is developed in Delphi/Pascal which runs just as fast as C++ ans is as stable. It also allows rapid development which is why you see so many upgrades compared to Ableton.

The Ableton team has to code in C++ which takes forever while FL Studio rapidly codes away in Delphi's environment. I believe this is why you see so much innovation with FL Studio. Their development environment is so powerful and fast. Delphi coding is so fast now and it runs as quick as C++ and is just as stable. It was a brilliant move for them to write it on Delphi/Pascal.

Anyway, what do you guys think about the upgrade to v10 with Ableton? I wish they would do some innovative stuff like FL Studio like the Piano Roll, etc.
Old 23rd June 2019
  #2
Here for the gear
 

It depends on what you do with it and what you consider important in your day to day workflow - i'm not familiar with FL studio, what are the innovative features you're referring to?

I upgraded to 10 and haven't regretted it - I'm really happy that they made so many quality of life improvements rather than just going for attention grabbing headline features (I haven't spent any time with the new soft synths but I like the new delay effect). The latest 10.1 update has some great automation improvements that I use every day. The max for live integration is much more stable now so if you use max devices often then I'd argue it's worth it for that alone
Old 29th June 2019
  #3
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by apeshake View Post
It depends on what you do with it and what you consider important in your day to day workflow - i'm not familiar with FL studio, what are the innovative features you're referring to?

I upgraded to 10 and haven't regretted it - I'm really happy that they made so many quality of life improvements rather than just going for attention grabbing headline features (I haven't spent any time with the new soft synths but I like the new delay effect). The latest 10.1 update has some great automation improvements that I use every day. The max for live integration is much more stable now so if you use max devices often then I'd argue it's worth it for that alone
Agree 100%, it depends on which parts of Live are most important to you. I don’t really care for Wavetable but it’s easy to use. Drum Bus is nice, and if you play live with it the new Channel EQ is far better than EQ3, and you can do more with Push now. As mentioned, the automation updates are big. New free sound packs on the website too. For me it was worth it. Now if they want a couple hundred more $ in a year from now for v11 I’ll be a bit peeved, but for now I’m very happy.
Old 29th June 2019
  #4
Definitely worth the upgrade. Lots of new features and great sound packs.
Old 10th July 2019
  #5
Gear Head
Groups of groups is worth the upgrade alone for me.

My sessions are so nice and tidy these days.
Old 16th July 2019
  #6
Lives for gear
 
ORyan87's Avatar
Wavetable and drumbuss is worth the upgrade itself.
Old 19th September 2019
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Is it worth it to upgrade from Live 9 to Live 10?

I'm considering upgrading but I'm not sure if the upgrade is worth $299.

I don't think I'd be using any of the included libraries or the new instruments. I'm mostly interested in the workflow improvements (groups within groups, arrangement view, editing multiple clips at the same time, etc).

Do the new features really make a difference compared to Live 9?
Old 19th September 2019
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
I'm considering upgrading but I'm not sure if the upgrade is worth $299.

I don't think I'd be using any of the included libraries or the new instruments. I'm mostly interested in the workflow improvements (groups within groups, arrangement view, editing multiple clips at the same time, etc).

Do the new features really make a difference compared to Live 9?
Definitely worth the upgrade IMHO.
Old 19th September 2019
  #9
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Guru View Post
Definitely worth the upgrade IMHO.
Thanks SynthGuru (also thanks for moving the post).
Old 20th September 2019
  #10
Gear Nut
 

IMHO Live 9 to 10 upgrade is one of the best DAW updates I've bought. Especially considering the 10.1 update.

Lots of workflow improvements. automation shapes and automation warping/stretching, better implementation of crossfade, added keyboard shortcuts to make navigation easier, a keyboard shortcut to reveal and hide all automation lanes, vst3, midi capture (which i use ALL the time), ctrl+shift+drag time stretching and some other tools for working with audio on the arrange view, and probably lots of other stuff I'm forgetting. The best features are the ones that aren't flashy and exciting for them to show off in a highlight video but make it easier to actually use the DAW in the more mundane, moment to moment stuff. The Echo and Drum Bus devices are really nice too.
Old 21st September 2019
  #11
Gear Addict
 

Thanks Razzia. Great comment!

Has anyone noticed better or worse performance compared to 9?
Old 22nd September 2019
  #12
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
Thanks Razzia. Great comment!

Has anyone noticed better or worse performance compared to 9?
Which OS? What core count?
Old 23rd September 2019
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Which OS? What core count?
I'm on macOS but does it matter?
Old 23rd September 2019
  #14
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
I'm on macOS but does it matter?
Of course! If I'm not using Windows, how can I have an opinion on performance there? What a question…

For me, on older quadcore running on macOS 10.12.6, Live 10 is marginally more effective, maybe a few percent. Last I did a test I could maybe use one more VI track than in 9. I do think which specific devices and plug-ins (must be updated or really well-written ones) you use will affect your results though.

I'd suggest you make a short list of the instruments you'd like to use, and maybe important other types of plug-ins. Then check with the specific community for each instrument what other's experiences are. Also find out which specific versions. Surely a few users at least will be using Live 10.

You can of course do that here to, but I'd suggest you start a thread per instrument/plug-in/bundle, so you get as specific responses as you can.

Also, you gave no indication on your core count. That's also relevant for respondents.
Old 23rd September 2019
  #15
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Of course! If I'm not using Windows, how can I have an opinion on performance there? What a question…

For me, on older quadcore running on macOS 10.12.6, Live 10 is marginally more effective, maybe a few percent. Last I did a test I could maybe use one more VI track than in 9. I do think which specific devices and plug-ins (must be updated or really well-written ones) you use will affect your results though.

I'd suggest you make a short list of the instruments you'd like to use, and maybe important other types of plug-ins. Then check with the specific community for each instrument what other's experiences are. Also find out which specific versions. Surely a few users at least will be using Live 10.

You can of course do that here to, but I'd suggest you start a thread per instrument/plug-in/bundle, so you get as specific responses as you can.

Also, you gave no indication on your core count. That's also relevant for respondents.


My question was simply if anyone on their system with their usage saw better or worse performance when moving from 9 to 10.
Old 23rd September 2019
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
My question was simply if anyone on their system with their usage saw better or worse performance when moving from 9 to 10.
And from my post you got no such info? I gave relevant info from my own experience. No-one here is under any obligation to serve you with answers without questioning your line of inquiry. You ask, people respond and may add other info they find relevant. It's not a difficult concept.
Old 3rd October 2019
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

I still use ableton 9 and till now I have to say that the upgrade to version 10 is too much money for me.
Maybe for pro's it's a no brainer but for people like me that uses a daw for every now and then to record something 300 euro's is still a lot of money.
And they never have a black friday sale.
I also use Studio one and on black friday the upgrade from version 3 pro to version 4 pro was about 60 euro, that's a much friendlier price I think.
Studio one has a piano roll if you like working with this and beside that it has a pattern editor since version 4, so there are 2 ways of putting midi note's in.
At this moment there's a cross grade action till the end of december 299 if you have a daw already. (also FL 11 and Live 9)
You can try the full demo for 30 days or try studio prime (entry level) for free.

https://shop.presonus.com/Studio-One-4-Crossgrade
Old 3rd October 2019
  #18
Gear Addict
 

$300 for the update is a big chunk of cash for a hobbyist but I ended up deciding to upgrade from 9 to 10 suite for a couple of reasons:

1) Live 9 won't be able to run in macOS Catalina which will include Sidecar. Using my iPad pro to play around with plugins from my big Yamaha piano sounds very attractive.

2) M4L devices have been polished and include tons of useful stuff (modulators, sequencers, synths, etc). This opens up lots of creative possibilities.

3) Huge workflow improvements in arrangement view which was one of my major gripes with previous versions of Live.

4) New UI and improved rendering engine. Live 10 now runs at 60fps which feels a lot nicer even on my low powered 2014 13'' MBP (my main machine is an iMac 5K).

5) New effects, libraries, and synths.

I upgraded 2 days ago but I have a cold so I haven't been able to test it much. I haven't noticed big changes in audio performance. Projects do seem to open and close faster.

Old 25th October 2019
  #19
Here for the gear
 

Question for people who did upgrade.

With all the new updates did you find that any of your old sessions for 9 had a few things that weren't working properly at first? I use one large session for my live performance and just am wondering how much, if any bug fixing I'll have to do to get everything behaving properly. I probably don't want to make the switch the day before a show but will that even be an issue?
Old 25th October 2019
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trouble in The Streets View Post
Question for people who did upgrade.

With all the new updates did you find that any of your old sessions for 9 had a few things that weren't working properly at first? I use one large session for my live performance and just am wondering how much, if any bug fixing I'll have to do to get everything behaving properly. I probably don't want to make the switch the day before a show but will that even be an issue?
That's always an issue.

In my case, Live 10 Standard since the first beta and Max For Live, I've seen very few problems with importing older sets. However, I've also had to make multiple reinstalls and resets using Live 10, but I've been using the beta and 9 side by side on disk (though not open at the same time) and I also use software that modify Live itself, use third party control scripts replacing native ones, like for the Push.

I still think Live 9 is excellent and I use the Live 9 theme…

In most cases a Live 9 set will open in Live 10 with the older version of native devices. It's when you manually upgrade a device there could be differences, that you really have to judge on a case by case basis.
Old 25th October 2019
  #21
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by willem1958 View Post
And they never have a black friday sale.
?? At least once a year there is a 20% discount period, as far as I can remember. Not on Black Friday though. December is a bet for next period, but I don't think it's 100%. I'm not 100% certain either that this applies to Live updates every time, but it's not unheard of I think. Have you paid attention to this and can say it doesn't apply to Live itself?
Old 25th October 2019
  #22
Gear Addict
 
Calagan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trouble in The Streets View Post
Question for people who did upgrade.

With all the new updates did you find that any of your old sessions for 9 had a few things that weren't working properly at first? I use one large session for my live performance and just am wondering how much, if any bug fixing I'll have to do to get everything behaving properly. I probably don't want to make the switch the day before a show but will that even be an issue?
One important issue (and difficult to figure out) I had when switching from Live 9 to Live 10 is the way Live 10 is managing multicore with some plugins.

I had specific problems with u-He's Diva in Live 10 : in a very heavy set I'm using on stage, I started to have some CPU crackles while using Diva.
More specifically : only when switching from one instance of Diva to another using the chain selector (may it automated or switched with a controller).
In Live 9 the exact same set was without any issue, and transposed in Live 10 it was sometimes ok, sometimes crackling, sometimes even freezing in a crazy way (audio stops, CPU meter shows 1500%, everything is frozen during 30s !!! Heavy **** on stage, as you can imagine !).
I discovered it did that only when switching from one instance of Diva to another using the chain selector.

At first I was thinking the chain selector was broken in some way in Live 10, but after hours of painful experimentation I discovered that the problem could be solved by switching off the multicore option in Diva (it is quite counter-intuitive, but it works).
The CPU meter shows some % more, but it doesn't overload like when multicore is switched on.
I will notify U-He about that. I think that some u-he users could find it interesting to know.
It's written in the Diva manual that the multicore option can make some problems with some DAW, depending on how they manage multicore.
So I guess it's done very differently in Live 9 and Live 10 (even if I didn't notice much improvement in heavy sets comparing the two versions).
Old 25th October 2019
  #23
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Calagan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
Has anyone noticed better or worse performance compared to 9?
Except the issue I noticed above, on my system it's more or less the same performance.
It may be better, but it's difficult to see objectively.
At least, i'm almost sure it's not worst (for the moments, heavt sets I could run in Live 9 are still ok in Live 10)...

I'm using Live 10.1.3 on a macbook pro mid 2012 15" / i7 2.3 GHz / Mojave / SSD / 16Go RAM
Old 25th October 2019
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
?? At least once a year there is a 20% discount period, as far as I can remember. Not on Black Friday though. December is a bet for next period, but I don't think it's 100%. I'm not 100% certain either that this applies to Live updates every time, but it's not unheard of I think. Have you paid attention to this and can say it doesn't apply to Live itself?
Thanks and yes I've paid attention to this (I got the newsletter) and with their last sale I had to pay around 390 euro's to upgrade from 9 standard to 10 suite.
Strange thing was that I got 10 lite for free because I bought a Novation Impulse and the upgrade from my free 10 lite was also around 390 euro's. (I had to look back to what they offered me exactly)
For me it was very strange that I had payed something like 380 euro's (I think) a few years ago for 9 standard and now it's worth the same as my free version of 10 lite?
That made me angry.
While the upgrade from Studio One to version 4 cost me something like 65 euro with black friday sale.
That's a big difference between Ableton and Presonus.
In this case Ableton is very much money oriënted and Presonus is more customer friendly to their long term users imho.
Old 25th October 2019
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan View Post
At first I was thinking the chain selector was broken in some way in Live 10, but after hours of painful experimentation I discovered that the problem could be solved by switching off the multicore option in Diva (it is quite counter-intuitive, but it works).
The CPU meter shows some % more, but it doesn't overload like when multicore is switched on.
I will notify U-He about that. I think that some u-he users could find it interesting to know.
It's written in the Diva manual that the multicore option can make some problems with some DAW, depending on how they manage multicore.
So I guess it's done very differently in Live 9 and Live 10 (even if I didn't notice much improvement in heavy sets comparing the two versions).
It makes sense. When you spread a process over multiple threads/cores you can process more data but you are adding latency in the communication between these threads. This is terrible for realtime applications such as audio.

Some CPUs and hardware configs are more sensitive to this than others.
Old 25th October 2019
  #26
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Calagan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
It makes sense. When you spread a process over multiple threads/cores you can process more data but you are adding latency in the communication between these threads. This is terrible for realtime applications such as audio.

Some CPUs and hardware configs are more sensitive to this than others.
It makes sense, except that it was behaving differently in Live 9.
In Live 9, there was no issue in activating the multicore option in Diva, and the cpu usage was lower.
In Live 10, you need to deactivate the option and the CPU meter shows a bigger CPU usage for the exact same plugin usage (but maybe it's only on the meters, and the processing is the same)
Old 25th October 2019
  #27
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan View Post
It makes sense, except that it was behaving differently in Live 9.
In Live 9, there was no issue in activating the multicore option in Diva, and the cpu usage was lower.
In Live 10, you need to deactivate the option and the CPU meter shows a bigger CPU usage for the exact same plugin usage (but maybe it's only on the meters, and the processing is the same)
It's weird indeed.

Personally I don't trust the CPU meter on Ableton too much. Sometimes it goes beyond 100%...
Old 25th October 2019
  #28
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Calagan's Avatar
 

I didn't tested very scientifically, but even with the higher CPU usage, it doesn't seem to be more problematic in Live 10 than in Live 9.
I guess if they changed the handling of multicore, they changed too the way the cpu meter is working. I didn't check the activity monitor of my macbook, maybe it shows similar CPU meters (but distributed differently on the different cores).

EDIT : After I checked the activity monitor and compared it to the Live CPU meter, it looks like when you switch off the multicore option in Diva, the cpu activity is a (tiny) bit lower on the activity monitor, but much higher in the Live CPU meter.
So I guess the Live CPU meter is showing the maximum CPU use per core, while the activity monitor in Mac is showing the global CPU use...
Old 26th October 2019
  #29
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by willem1958 View Post
Thanks and yes I've paid attention to this (I got the newsletter) and with their last sale I had to pay around 390 euro's to upgrade from 9 standard to 10 suite.
Strange thing was that I got 10 lite for free because I bought a Novation Impulse and the upgrade from my free 10 lite was also around 390 euro's. (I had to look back to what they offered me exactly)
The 9 standard to 10 suite upgrade is a double upgrade though. I'm offered 10 Standard to 10 Suite for 299€ and I have Max For Live already. Live 10 Suite without an upgrade is 599€.

Standard to Suite means you get 10 more instruments, 3200 more sounds (samples), 21 more audio effects and 9 more MIDI effects, plus Max For Live. If one wants these things, then it's an option. Personally, except for MFL, I don't see the attraction.

If you got 10 lite you could contemplate selling the 9 license, right? Not everyone wants Live 10. The cost for a transfer is 0.
Old 26th October 2019
  #30
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Not everyone wants Live 10
There are many more improvements to Live 10 than the features you have mentioned. Arrangement view for example has been completely revamped.

In any case the update might make sense for some Windows users, but for macOS users it's a different story. Live 9 won't run in Catalina since it's a 32 bits application.
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