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Is Ableton 10 Worth The Upgrade?
Old 26th October 2019
  #31
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
There are many more improvements to Live 10 than the features you have mentioned. Arrangement view for example has been completely revamped.
Yes, I know. I wouldn't call the arrangement view completely revamped though. "Definitely improved" works for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
Live 9 won't run in Catalina since it's a 32 bits application.
It's true that Live 9 isn't supported in macOS 10.15 "Catalina", but Live 9 has been available both in 64-bit and 32-bit versions. Live 9 dropped 32-bit plug-in support without a bridge solution in the 64-bit version as well.

I'm not aware of the exact reason Live 9 isn't supported in 10.15, but it's possible there's some 32-bit library in use even when the main Live app is 64-bit. Maybe this is what you mean when you call it "a 32 bits application"? On the other hand there may be other requirements Apple puts on developers that Ableton can't meet as Live 9 isn't currently developed. That would also stop it from working properly.

Last edited by Mikael B; 2 weeks ago at 09:22 PM..
Old 26th October 2019
  #32
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
It's true that Live 9 isn't supported in macOS 10.15 "Catalina", but Live 9 has been available both in 64-bit and 32-bit versions. Live 9 dropped 32-bit plug-in support without a bridge solution in the 64-bit version as well.

I'm not aware of the exact reason Live 9 isn't supported in 10.15, but it's possible there's some 32-bit library in use even when the main Live app is 64-bit. Maybe this is what you mean when you call "a 32 bits application"? On the other hand there may be other requirements Apple puts on developers that Ableton can't meet as Live 9 isn't currently developed. That would also stop it from working properly.
No, I was wrong. I thought the app itself was 32bits.

Maybe the problem (or one of the problems) is Metal support since I believe Apple deprecated OpenGL too in Catalina.
Old 27th October 2019
  #33
Gear Addict
 
Calagan's Avatar
 

Another stuff regarding Live 10 and GPU use...

I don't know if it's me, but my laptop computer (mid-2012 macbook pro 15") is less hot running Live 10 (10.1.3) than Live 9 on the same Live set.
And I'm pretty sure it comes from the graphic card.
With Live 9, even a small set running around 30% of the CPU could make my laptop very hot. And the hot was coming from the top left of the computer, where I think the graphic card is located.

It's much better now with Live 10.
Or it may come from Mojave compared to Sierra. I don't know...
Old 27th October 2019
  #34
Lives for gear
 
ORyan87's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan View Post
Another stuff regarding Live 10 and GPU use...

I don't know if it's me, but my laptop computer (mid-2012 macbook pro 15") is less hot running Live 10 (10.1.3) than Live 9 on the same Live set.
And I'm pretty sure it comes from the graphic card.
With Live 9, even a small set running around 30% of the CPU could make my laptop very hot. And the hot was coming from the top left of the computer, where I think the graphic card is located.

It's much better now with Live 10.
Or it may come from Mojave compared to Sierra. I don't know...
100%. Before I made the switch to 10, I had my 2012 mbp 13 cleaned and re-flowed the thermal paste on the processor - dead silence even when running an external monitor.
Old 27th October 2019
  #35
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan View Post
Another stuff regarding Live 10 and GPU use...

I don't know if it's me, but my laptop computer (mid-2012 macbook pro 15") is less hot running Live 10 (10.1.3) than Live 9 on the same Live set.
And I'm pretty sure it comes from the graphic card.
With Live 9, even a small set running around 30% of the CPU could make my laptop very hot. And the hot was coming from the top left of the computer, where I think the graphic card is located.

It's much better now with Live 10.
Or it may come from Mojave compared to Sierra. I don't know...
Ableton rewrote the UI from scratch in Live 10. Among other things it now runs by default at 60fps.

I'm not 100% sure but I assume they switched the rendering engine to Metal which on macOS is more efficient than OpenGL.
Old 29th October 2019
  #36
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
I'm not 100% sure but I assume they switched the rendering engine to Metal which on macOS is more efficient than OpenGL.
If they did, it's something they added rather than switched to. I don't have "Metal" in my machine and I'm running Live 10 on macOS 10.12.
Old 29th October 2019
  #37
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
If they did, it's something they added rather than switched to. I don't have "Metal" in my machine and I'm running Live 10 on macOS 10.12.
Metal was introduced in macOS 10.11.

It's a low level Apple framework for high performance graphics. Previously Live most likely used OpenGL.
Old 31st October 2019
  #38
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
Metal was introduced in macOS 10.11.

It's a low level Apple framework for high performance graphics. Previously Live most likely used OpenGL.
Yeah, but the actual graphics hardware must be capable of supporting Metal. Mine doesn't, which is why I can't run macOS 10.14 Mojave. Previous OSes didn't require Metal supporting graphics.

My point is still that Ableton couldn't have replaced OpenGL, but obviously they have support for Metal in their code since Mojave at least (that requires Metal graphics). Which is interesting to note because that could make 2 machines with the identical software setups express any problem in that area differently. Assuming Metal code would switch in on a macOS 10.13 machine with the suitable graphics.

It could also be that this is abstracted for developers and is fully handled by macOS.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Yeah, but the actual graphics hardware must be capable of supporting Metal. Mine doesn't, which is why I can't run macOS 10.14 Mojave. Previous OSes didn't require Metal supporting graphics.
Ah sorry didn't think of that. :P

Quote:
My point is still that Ableton couldn't have replaced OpenGL, but obviously they have support for Metal in their code since Mojave at least (that requires Metal graphics). Which is interesting to note because that could make 2 machines with the identical software setups express any problem in that area differently. Assuming Metal code would switch in on a macOS 10.13 machine with the suitable graphics.
Most likely Live has 2 graphics backends beneath it's UI engine to be able to support users like yourself that are still running on OpenGL.

Quote:
It could also be that this is abstracted for developers and is fully handled by macOS.
If Live was using Cocoa that would be the case but it's a cross platform application written in C++. I could be wrong, but I don't think it would make financial sense to rewrite all the UI code for each platform.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
A
If Live was using Cocoa that would be the case but it's a cross platform application written in C++. I could be wrong, but I don't think it would make financial sense to rewrite all the UI code for each platform.
You seem to assume, or know, such a widely spread problem hasn't been solved with frameworks or the APIs. Abstraction means you don't rewrite, no? I think this being solved is quite likely, but I'm not sure and I would like to know. Just because I'm curious.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
You seem to assume, or know, such a widely spread problem hasn't been solved with frameworks or the APIs. Abstraction means you don't rewrite, no? I think this being solved is quite likely, but I'm not sure and I would like to know. Just because I'm curious.
It's abstracted for devs using Apple high level frameworks such as Cocoa.

For devs using C++ (such as Ableton, the majority of crossplatform software, plugin developers, etc) the answer is... it depends. There are some frameworks such as JUCE or Skia that do indeed abstract the graphics backend but it's common for devs to have lower level code here and there with OpenGL instructions.

I know Ableton used JUCE in earlier versions but I would imagine a company of that size would have its own graphics stack by now.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pier25 View Post
It's abstracted for devs using Apple high level frameworks such as Cocoa.

For devs using C++ (such as Ableton, the majority of crossplatform software, plugin developers, etc) the answer is... it depends. There are some frameworks such as JUCE or Skia that do indeed abstract the graphics backend but it's common for devs to have lower level code here and there with OpenGL instructions.

I know Ableton used JUCE in earlier versions but I would imagine a company of that size would have its own graphics stack by now.
I haven't studied this in detail, but I have used Developer Tools to look for causes in OpenGL for a Live GUI bug, some years back, in Live 9. Generally, I'd regard it as craziness not using some kind of framework, in-house or community wide. But then I'm not a real time cross-platform app developer, so I have to assume it could be very different from how I imagine it to be. Though I'd assume if there isn't some kind of abstraction, Live would have to support OpenGL and Metal at the same time depending on hardware/macOS. An affliction many GUIs would share, that makes me suspect this problem must have been solved. It could be quite different though, as I think you imply.

I do have noticed some oddities with Live graphics, in that it sometimes seem to affect CPU performance when I think it shouldn't (like with a discrete card in use). Nothing big yet though, so haven't investigated this really.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
?? At least once a year there is a 20% discount period, as far as I can remember. Not on Black Friday though.
@ willem1958 and other potential buyers, it's indeed 25% off currently through Cybermonday!
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