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Warp Artifacts Modular Synthesizers
Old 13th October 2018
  #1
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Warp Artifacts

So I just realized what I thought was bad compression on my end was ableton warp artifacts using beats modes. After I recorded stuff I could hear mostly what sounds like high hats/shakers coming up abnormally in volume...sometimes even the tail of a kick. I thought it was part of the recording and I missed it due to tired ears or something. I had been living with this on some of my live set beats for quite some time now figuring I would have to go back and fix it.

Anyway working on another loop and I turned warp off and noticed that the sound wasnt there. Im not even adjusting the tempo at all just setting warp markers so I can cut up/loop the audio. Might have been discussed before In detail but damn all the warp modes have their issues sheesh. on ableton 9 by the way maybe its been updated in recent versions.

Anyway this problem was fixed enough for my liking by changing beats mode from Transients to Bar. On final exports probably worth going through the work to unwarp and line up all audio on the arrangment view.
Old 16th October 2018
  #2
afa
Gear Maniac
 
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All warp algorithms are different and work best with different kinds of material. Usually, one of the algorithms works much better than the rest. I suggest you try them all.
Old 19th October 2018
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afa View Post
All warp algorithms are different and work best with different kinds of material. Usually, one of the algorithms works much better than the rest. I suggest you try them all.
Well I have now! Just one of those things been using default for years thinking i made a mistake or did something wrong turns out it was the warp mode. Finally learned to listen for something and noticed immediately that it wasnt' there during the recording but I can hear it now!

Another lesson I recently learned is always save your patches if you ever plan on going back. Seems like the sounds I make on my outboard while im in the zone fit great but I dont save them...then I end up spending an hour+ trying to recereate it.
Old 19th October 2018
  #4
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poole's Avatar
If you're staying at one tempo, Repitch has the fewest artifacts in my experience
Old 20th October 2018
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
Well I have now! Just one of those things been using default for years thinking i made a mistake or did something wrong turns out it was the warp mode. Finally learned to listen for something and noticed immediately that it wasnt' there during the recording but I can hear it now!

Another lesson I recently learned is always save your patches if you ever plan on going back. Seems like the sounds I make on my outboard while im in the zone fit great but I dont save them...then I end up spending an hour+ trying to recereate it.
Warping on beats mode doesnt change the sound unless you mangle the sample. Other warp modes do.

So youre mistaken and hear things.
Old 20th October 2018
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teofunk View Post
Warping on beats mode doesnt change the sound unless you mangle the sample. Other warp modes do.

So youre mistaken and hear things.
yeah, unless you are changing the tempo/tuning, beats mode should be identical to having warp off...
Old 21st October 2018
  #7
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It might be changing it by .02 bpm or so but there are definately some artifacts just having it on, although not all tracks and not allr he time at the same part of a loop even though it might loop through a bunch of times. I have been checking in a lot of my drum tracks and i do like beats mode the best but transients isnt always the best option.

Mostly noticeable on shakers, fast high hats though a few issues with 808ish kicks
Old 21st October 2018
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
It might be changing it by .02 bpm or so but there are definately some artifacts just having it on, although not all tracks and not allr he time at the same part of a loop even though it might loop through a bunch of times. I have been checking in a lot of my drum tracks and i do like beats mode the best but transients isnt always the best option.

Mostly noticeable on shakers, fast high hats though a few issues with 808ish kicks
This is easily disproved with nulling a copy without warp active. Obviously having the same original tempo. Are there any reasons you did change the tempo, even by 0.02? Why not move audio a few samples instead,

There are no artefacts with Beat warp unless you change the tempo. Are you perhaps quantizing the audio clip?

User error is all. At least you're leaving something out from your description.
Old 21st October 2018
  #9
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I made some quick tests in Live 10 —The unaffected warp modes are the same as in 9 —and made the not so surprising observation that if you move, accidentally or intentionally, one of the warp markers ever so slightly the range to that point going from the previous marker and to the next, will not null with a non-warped copy.

I also tested all warp modes with an unedited clip while I were at it and all modes null completely with a warped unmodified original, except Repitch @poole (Actually it almost totally nulls, but not completely), Complex and Complex Pro.

The likeliest explanation for your issue, @ctothej123, is that you somehow affect the playback with using warping.

How do you record? How do you warp? The answer may lie there.

Last edited by Mikael B; 15th November 2018 at 11:37 PM..
Old 21st October 2018
  #10
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Ill see if i can get an audio sample. The only warping is due to minor fluctuations in the recording...short delay at the beggining, over course of a few minutes some downbeats will be a touch ahead, some a touch behind. Mostly i am just making few small adjustments to downbeats every 8-16 bars. 4-6 warp markers in a track.

So I am moving warp markers. I might be able to skip it actually depending on how the loop sounds. I zoom in so far it probably be inaudible
Old 21st October 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
So I am moving warp markers.
If you are then you could try fine-tuning the other warp modes to find the most acceptable mode. If you're not happy with the results there are other, sometimes better, algorithms in other (plug-in) products, the reason to choose a specific product depending a bit on the audio content characteristics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
I might be able to skip it actually depending on how the loop sounds. I zoom in so far it probably be inaudible
Have your tried just slicing the audio? Playing back unaltered slices via MIDI may cause some overlaps and gaps, but depending on what the audio is this is something you might get away with and there will be no glitchy artefacts.

I discovered a way to generate the MIDI needed for slices just the other day.

Last edited by Mikael B; 22nd October 2018 at 07:16 PM..
Old 25th October 2018
  #12
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I can usually get a beats mode sounding fine. Occasionally complex works best. The whole premise of the thread was I thought I did something wrong the recordings like over compressed it (which I probably did do hehe) but what I was hearing was warp artifacts. Which i didnt realize for like 2 years. So basically look how dumb I am. Getting smarter though. Slowllllyyyy
Old 25th October 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
I can usually get a beats mode sounding fine. Occasionally complex works best. The whole premise of the thread was I thought I did something wrong the recordings like over compressed it (which I probably did do hehe) but what I was hearing was warp artifacts. Which i didnt realize for like 2 years. So basically look how dumb I am. Getting smarter though. Slowllllyyyy
Abusing technology is a great way to learn how to use it. How boring wouldn't things be if you always read the manual before you dared trying something? While I do read manuals, trying stuff and expecting them to work like I want is my starting point. Your ears will be learning and with time teach you what you need to change in your methodology. It's yours to grow as you see fit.

Last edited by Mikael B; 15th November 2018 at 11:39 PM..
Old 25th October 2018
  #14
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I usually read the manual before i even buy it hehe
Old 31st October 2018
  #15
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I feel when warp is activated, theres more going on than we think.
I've been getting a lot of recordings that end up have the usual clicks and pops artefacts from warping, and it is only present when warp mode is activated. Also note that this is without ever touching the warp points, just a straight recording into ableton.

The past while i've been having to manually disable warp mode off of anything I record into ableton, and only re-enable it on a as needed basis, seeing that Ableton enables it by default on recorded audio.

Setting the default warp mode to Re-Pitch seems to be another fix as it is the only mode that doesn't create artefacts on recorded audio as well.
Old 31st October 2018
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip Hop Mop View Post

Setting the default warp mode to Re-Pitch seems to be another fix as it is the only mode that doesn't create artefacts on recorded audio as well.
It has already been addressed that this ill-founded assumption is patently wrong. Do the nulls or forget it. Nulls are the truth. If you get nulls there are no differences no matter what you tell yourself. If you don't get them you can search for the problem and its solution. So do you want to do the work or not?
Old 31st October 2018
  #17
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Trip Hop Mop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
It has already been addressed that this ill-founded assumption is patently wrong. Do the nulls or forget it. Nulls are the truth. If you get nulls there are no differences no matter what you tell yourself. If you don't get them you can search for the problem and its solution. So do you want to do the work or not?
I'll take a look around this evening and sift through the projects with this problem.

They'll deffinitly not perfectly null as the artifacts aren't a subtle "is this in my head" sound. I'm talking genuine clicks in the recordings similar to a computer playing under stress (mind you that's not the problem)
Old 31st October 2018
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip Hop Mop View Post
I'll take a look around this evening and sift through the projects with this problem.

They'll deffinitly not perfectly null as the artifacts aren't a subtle "is this in my head" sound. I'm talking genuine clicks in the recordings similar to a computer playing under stress (mind you that's not the problem)
If so, you do have a genuine problem that hopefully can be fixed. I've heard such clicks before myself, but I do regard these as exceptions rather than the rule. One thing to make sure you check is the clip fades. With them on there might be irregularities. With them off you might get transition clicks when the waveform jumps from point at the end to another point at the beginning of the same or another clip, i e without a proper slope between these. Depending on the waveform itself of course.

In addition to this you also have both "Compressor" and "Glue" eliciting clicking sounds when side-chained on some bass-rich material, at least in Live 9. Side-chained third party plug-ins with similar attack and release settings are way less prone to this in my experience.
Old 15th November 2018
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
If so, you do have a genuine problem that hopefully can be fixed. I've heard such clicks before myself, but I do regard these as exceptions rather than the rule. One thing to make sure you check is the clip fades. With them on there might be irregularities. With them off you might get transition clicks when the waveform jumps from point at the end to another point at the beginning of the same or another clip, i e without a proper slope between these. Depending on the waveform itself of course.

In addition to this you also have both "Compressor" and "Glue" eliciting clicking sounds when side-chained on some bass-rich material, at least in Live 9. Side-chained third party plug-ins with similar attack and release settings are way less prone to this in my experience.
Ok here we go. Tried looking for projects with the problem I had previously mentioned, but was tricky finding one as usually I fix the problem before saving.

Regardless, I've finally got an example which i've attached below.

This was with an MS-20 recorded dry into a completely empty Audio Track. Immediately after recording, there was the clicking on the transients at the start of the region. Once warp is knocked off, the clicks disappear.

I've looked into it further and it seems that only Complex and Complex Pro produces the clicks. All other mode don't seem to produce clicks. (had tested various grain sizes and beats three Transient Loop Modes)
Attached Files

Unwarped.mp3 (167.3 KB, 148 views)

Warped.mp3 (167.3 KB, 154 views)

Old 15th November 2018
  #20
Lives for gear
What the hell are you talking about? I couldn't hear any real difference in your examples, (at least ones that a casual listener would notice)...

More!!!!!

The warp is your friend. Use the warp... More!!!!




But seriously, don't time compress/expand unless you need to, or want that effect.
Old 15th November 2018
  #21
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip Hop Mop View Post
This was with an MS-20 recorded dry into a completely empty Audio Track. Immediately after recording, there was the clicking on the transients at the start of the region. Once warp is knocked off, the clicks disappear.

I've looked into it further and it seems that only Complex and Complex Pro produces the clicks. All other mode don't seem to produce clicks. (had tested various grain sizes and beats three Transient Loop Modes)
I hear the "clicks" or I'd rather say disturbances. These are expected with that material though.
Old 15th November 2018
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
Trip Hop Mop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I hear the "clicks" or I'd rather say disturbances. These are expected with that material though.
Been playing around with it a bit more and I believe i've got an idea as to why its creating the clicking.

This problems seems more like a syncing issue or something along those lines.
It always appears on the first few seconds of a region. Then shortly after it sorts itself out and plays back the audio as intended.

Trick is to disable warp mode on the region, and then re-enable it, while also keeping the clips current timing. I'm guessing it's something to do with how warp mode reads audio while its being recorded.

I guess there is a small timing issue between my interface and computer seeing as this is not a wide spread problem
Old 15th November 2018
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I've heard such clicks before myself, but I do regard these as exceptions rather than the rule.
To be clear the clicks I've heard have not been same type as @Trip Hop Mop's. Typically I've gotten clicks on the first note on some loops of the same clip and not others. As this often have involved kicks or bass and I use grooves in the source MIDI that mean beat timing is shifting differently in different loop runs — This is how grooves differ from Swing— the best explanation is that minute timing shifts between the end of a clip and the start makes the waveform jump from one point to another in non-contiguous way. Often this will cause a distinct click that is quite irritating. Fades do help.
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