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Ableton - sound quality Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 3 weeks ago
  #181
Gear Nut
 

I think it's possible to come to some conclusions from this post.

Firstly majority feel the summing engines are the same - obviously some still don't do a feeling that something is different is happening.

Secondly only null tests have been done which could vary once faders are adjusted, panning is changed and how the effects interact with the software.

If indeed it is the case that all modern summing engines are equal - which is sounding most likely then something else is up. Either incompetency (doubtful as I have heard professionals question this as well and they are seasoned pros). I would therefore suggest that it is either out of scope for testing OR the workflow is significantly affecting the results.

I would say that I think workflow must be the answer. I have noticed more of a struggle in mixing in Ableton. Whether it's the design of the faders, the panning or something I couldn't be certain. I know I can get good results from Ableton however. I also know though that my mixes did sound different in Logic and again different in Pro Tools. Yes the tools are different but I have noticed there are similarities in mixes I do in each DAW.

What I don't feel is fair is to clearly say that others are wrong to think this. Music production is an art and if subconsciously the workflow affects the results then that in itself is very interesting and would make for an interesting study in iteself.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #182
Here for the gear
 

Changing the color scheme in Ableton will change how you hear if you're in a suggestible mood or if you're suggestible by nature. Human senses get easily scrambled if you're paying the right kind of attention.

That's why the skill of mindfully stepping back and a healthy dose of skepticism are so useful to have for audio work and mixing.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #183
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
Why are sound engineers on youtube with thousand of followers not part of this discussion?
Unless you're that "sound engineer" then it's not your thoughts. Don't you have any ideas of your own you can formulate, beyond the shallow and naive analysis you shared so far? While one can illustrate a point one makes with a video you have to bring something to a discussion to be part of it.

So, where's your DAW projects that illustrate how bad Live sounds? If you find that difficult, maybe it's time to learn something? Just do it already!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #184
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
I am a professional and I mix & master in ableton live all the time - if you are getting a bad sound all that proves is your own ignorance of how to properly process your tracks....
Exactly.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #185
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
Like I said I have no problems mixing my tracks in Ableton, and to my ear they all sound great. My general observation is that in Logic its easier and faster to get a balanced mix with plugins especially, I never mentioned sound quality or a so called difference in "summing engines". You can call me incompetent or whatever, but I really don't care. It's just plain ignorance if you think all DAWs behave the same way. I'm perfectly fine with Ableton, this will be my last post, what a waste of time.
It's easy to argue against straw men, like you do for some reason. When you're done with that then maybe you can try understanding what people are actually saying. Which isn't what you claim! So far, your "misunderstanding" of what is said does come off as quite intentional.

There is not one person, that I've seen here anyway, that doesn't think a producer can't prefer one DAW over another or that a certain producer may not work faster in one DAW than in another. To imply people disagreeing with you are saying that, which is what hear from you, is ludicrous.

There are many valid reasons for preferring mixing in one DAW as well, but that Live should have a lesser audio engine, or sound "bad", is not part of those.

Last edited by Mikael B; 2 weeks ago at 04:20 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #186
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
Either incompetency
That's part of it. Even "seasoned" Pros aren't that savvy on why something goes on. They use tools and prefer some for whatever reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
I would therefore suggest that it is either out of scope for testing
Nothing is out of scope for testing. Digital audio is maths, Sound waves are physics and hearing is biological. While the human mind adds stuff to what is heard in the head of the music producer that is beside the point. The topic is DAWs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
I know I can get good results from Ableton however. I also know though that my mixes did sound different in Logic and again different in Pro Tools. Yes the tools are different but I have noticed there are similarities in mixes I do in each DAW.

What I don't feel is fair is to clearly say that others are wrong to think this. Music production is an art and if subconsciously the workflow affects the results then that in itself is very interesting and would make for an interesting study in iteself.
You can think this but all that has happened is that YOU work differently in one DAW than in another. That proves only that YOU make different mixes in different DAWs. I don't need another DAW to make a great mix, so I use Live. There are many others like me.

What I'm saying is, don't blame the tools. Blame your understanding of your tools and your missing knowledge of digital audio, audio physics and music production. That's what I did to advance my skills in music production. I acknowledged that despite years of experience I didn't know squat. So I went out and sought out the truths relevant to me and allowed my knowledge and experience to grow one step at a time. Learning never stops.

Do that and then use whatever tools you want for whatever you best see they fit for.
Old 1 week ago
  #187
Gear Head
 
alex921's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Unless you're that "sound engineer" then it's not your thoughts. Don't you have any ideas of your own you can formulate, beyond the shallow and naive analysis you shared so far? While one can illustrate a point one makes with a video you have to bring something to a discussion to be part of it.

So, where's your DAW projects that illustrate how bad Live sounds? If you find that difficult, maybe it's time to learn something? Just do it already!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundophiliac View Post
Changing the color scheme in Ableton will change how you hear if you're in a suggestible mood or if you're suggestible by nature. Human senses get easily scrambled if you're paying the right kind of attention.

That's why the skill of mindfully stepping back and a healthy dose of skepticism are so useful to have for audio work and mixing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
That's part of it. Even "seasoned" Pros aren't that savvy on why something goes on. They use tools and prefer some for whatever reason.



Nothing is out of scope for testing. Digital audio is maths, Sound waves are physics and hearing is biological. While the human mind adds stuff to what is heard in the head of the music producer that is beside the point. The topic is DAWs.



You can think this but all that has happened is that YOU work differently in one DAW than in another. That proves only that YOU make different mixes in different DAWs. I don't need another DAW to make a great mix, so I use Live. There are many others like me.

What I'm saying is, don't blame the tools. Blame your understanding of your tools and your missing knowledge of digital audio, audio physics and music production. That's what I did to advance my skills in music production. I acknowledged that despite years of experience I didn't know squat. So I went out and sought out the truths relevant to me and allowed my knowledge and experience to grow one step at a time. Learning never stops.

Do that and then use whatever tools you want for whatever you best see they fit for.
I couldn't resist to write you a message again here. So here I am back again, you can p*ss off with your philosophical bullsh*t. You, or others still haven't answered against my valid argument that all DAWs are coded differently. This is not rocket science, you numb nut.

A serious sound engineer will notice incompetence in Ableton when he/she starts mixing with 12 plugins on a single channel strip, because Ableton utilizes single core CPU per channel strip only, thus increasing latency.

This is one of the reasons why professional sound engineers do mastering in a mixing environment in Protools or Wavelab, etc. Please enlighten me with facts that I am incorrect when saying different DAWs are coded differently, as you previously did. This shows ur lack of incompetency on this subject, after all these years on GS, lol.
Old 1 week ago
  #188
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login's Avatar
This topic can be resumed to a single issue: people who understand maths and people who don't, the second group believes in fairly tales too.
Old 1 week ago
  #189
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
This topic can be resumed to a single issue: people who understand maths and people who don't, the second group believes in fairly tales too.
That sums up most (technical) discussions on Gearslutz.

Alistair
Old 1 week ago
  #190
Here for the gear
 
chaosmeister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
This topic can be resumed to a single issue: people who understand maths and people who don't, the second group believes in fairly tales too.
Well... I happen to be a mathematician. I don't believe DAWs differ sonically in any fundamental way. Do believe the Earth is flat though. And seriously, that moon landing? No-one in his right mind would buy that -- clearly a hoax.

On a more serious note: some of my students use a TI-84 calculator, some a Casio fx-CG20. The Casio is easier when searching for maxima of a function. The TI is easier when producing a table of values. Both however agree to the last digit on what the square root of 2 is. And both tell me 2+3 equals 5. And yes, probably both calculators OS's have been coded on a different chip in a different language. So what?

That's just like the difference between e.g. Live and Logic: convenience, personal preference, software fitting your workflow. Mix down 6 stems with all faders at zero though, and your output will be the same. The underlying code, no matter what language it's written in, will not change the fact that 2+3=5.

Personal preference is subtle and tricky. Colour scheme, graphical layout... Maybe Logic's fader is 300 pixels long and Live's fader is 250 pixels, and one simply feels more convenient when using a mouse to adjust it. Et cetera, ad nauseam. Boring stuff basically .
Old 1 week ago
  #191
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
A serious sound engineer will notice incompetence in Ableton when he/she starts mixing with 12 plugins on a single channel strip, because Ableton utilizes single core CPU per channel strip only, thus increasing latency.
I must give you that your posts are very funny. Extremely uninformed to the extent that we must assume you're joking, which is why I laugh with you. Well played.

I'm leaving the obvious follow-up questions, that your gaping logical holes begs for, for the future as I don't want to waste any more time.

And yes, we are still waiting for your shared sets, test results et al. It will be a long wait, so no point thinking about it.

I'm going to use Ableton Live now and it's going to be glorious. There's nothing you can do about it. In yer face.
Old 1 week ago
  #192
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
A serious sound engineer will notice incompetence in Ableton when he/she starts mixing with 12 plugins on a single channel strip, because Ableton utilizes single core CPU per channel strip only, thus increasing latency.
Err, what?
I have no idea whether Ableton is using just one single CPU core per channel strip (fwiw, it seems logical to me as we're dealing with serial processing here, which is usually taken care of by one CPU core only...) and/or whether other hosts are doing it differently (Logic for instance doesn't, multiple cores are used for multiple tracks/busses, hence for parallel processing, which again seems logical to me...), but regardless of all that, I have never heard CPU core distribution to be related to latencies.
Oh yes, you may have to raise your buffersizes in case your host isn't able to process things in time due to less than ideal multicore management - but that does in no way support your weird statement.
Plugins either add latency or they don't (some do, others don't). They do or don't do that regardless whether they're running of a single CPU core or multiple ones. And that's all there is about it.
And people are not using different programs for mastering because of better "latency distribution through multiple CPU cores" or whatever you may call it. Simply because something like that doesn't exist.
Old 1 week ago
  #193
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Logic for instance doesn't, multiple cores are used for multiple tracks/busses, hence for parallel processing, which again seems logical to me...)
Despite Logic developer magic (very skilled people there) I think you are very mistaken here. Where's your proof of this claim?

This is an official quote about Logic Pro 8:

Quote:
"Logic breaks tasks down into threads that can be assigned to a single core for execution. It's not possible to split a single thread across multiple cores, although a single core may run multiple threads at the same time."
From
Tips for balancing multi-core performance (Apple support article)


The following quote concerns the current Logic Pro X:
Quote:
"The Playback Tracks setting replicates the behavior of previous versions of Logic."
Quote:
"The Playback & Live Tracks setting distributes the load to different threads in cases where a Track Stack that contains multiple software instrument channel strips is selected, or when more than one audio track is recording. If the computer has enough cores and there are no other existing DSP demands on the computer, each live channel strip can be processed by a different core."
From About the Multithreading setting in Logic Pro X

This is how Live works as well and most likely how most DAWs if not all of them work. One thread can't be spread to other cores in a real time system. You need to split up the work and this is currently very hard to do under the programming paradigms in use also by DAW developers. Changes could come I suppose, but so far they haven't to the best of my knowledge. Can't be ruled out I guess.

Please share your sources and test results, if any. If what you claim is true that's great of course. Until then I regard the above as indicators you are in the wrong on this particular detail.

I can also add that I called Apple support to make sure I understood this correctly (I got the link to the second quote from them). To their knowledge, as stated to me anyway, it doesn't work as you suggest.

Last edited by Mikael B; 1 week ago at 05:33 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #194
Gear Nut
 

teenagers get dumber and dumber, must be the music we feed them
Old 1 week ago
  #195
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Despite Logic developer magic (very skilled people there) I think you are very mistaken here. Where's your proof of this claim?

This is an official quote about Logic Pro 8:
SNIP...
I don't see where this would be a contradiction to what I've said.
I know that single threads can't be split to multiple cores in a realtime system. But then, that is exactly what I said. Single channels/tracks are always processed by one core.
Old 6 days ago
  #196
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I don't see where this would be a contradiction to what I've said.
I know that single threads can't be split to multiple cores in a realtime system. But then, that is exactly what I said. Single channels/tracks are always processed by one core.
Yes, On re-reading I realise I seem to have totally misunderstood what you meant. I'm sorry about that. Great that we agree on this too and some arguments about this are there now, if anyone will feel inclined to go up against them. I'm not excluding that one day, some marvel developer will make all of this obsolete.
Old 5 days ago
  #197
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
Why are sound engineers on youtube with thousand of followers not part of this discussion? It intrigues me that every single one of them I follow, don't use Ableton for his/her final mix.

By simply saying "All DAWs are equal, because and the end of the day they are just one and zeroes" is just a foolish statement, you have very good developers and there are brilliant developers (Ableton has the latter).
Like, I still get the job done, I do my production and mixing inside Ableton. Don't get me wrong it's very do able to do mixing within Ableton, but I just noticed it's easier and faster to get a balanced mix in Logic. Believe what you want to believe I am not trying to convince anyone by saying it's easier to get a well balanced mix WITH PLUGINS IN Logic or it's ''summing engine''. Am I a f** wizard when saying Logic is coded differently then Ableton?

Who gives a f*** about YouTube followers...most of the "big" YouTube guys aren't that great at engineering (save for perhaps Warren Huart and Dave Pensado) most of them are teachers and as my Dad always said "those who can't do, teach"

I have hundreds of clients and produce songs with millions of plays in Ableton every day
It sounds just like everything else. When I need to record, I use PT or S1 because they have a better workflow and when I mix live stuff with a lot of outboard I use PT because it works much better with outboard. But for ITB, Ableton all day.
Old 2 days ago
  #198
Lives for gear
 

I’m crazier than you - I replaced all my ableton utility gain plugins with BitShiftGain AU. Sounds massively better

I too am of the mind, that the UI, UX and different internal DAW plugs across the various DAWs is what creates this ”sonic difference myth”. And while DAWs might sum faders at unity exactly the same, the way their faders etc, when not at unity, affect the processing of audio might differ slightly too. But you know what real engineers do? They commit to their tools and work with what they got. Adapt, Improvise, Overcome.
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