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Ableton - sound quality Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 25th June 2018
  #181
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login's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
Like I said I have no problems mixing my tracks in Ableton, and to my ear they all sound great. My general observation is that in Logic its easier and faster to get a balanced mix with plugins especially, I never mentioned sound quality or a so called difference in "summing engines". You can call me incompetent or whatever, but I really don't care. It's just plain ignorance if you think all DAWs behave the same way. I'm perfectly fine with Ableton, this will be my last post, what a waste of time.
I am not saying it was but when you think about it, it does make sense:

Old 25th June 2018
  #182
Gear Maniac
 

I think it's possible to come to some conclusions from this post.

Firstly majority feel the summing engines are the same - obviously some still don't do a feeling that something is different is happening.

Secondly only null tests have been done which could vary once faders are adjusted, panning is changed and how the effects interact with the software.

If indeed it is the case that all modern summing engines are equal - which is sounding most likely then something else is up. Either incompetency (doubtful as I have heard professionals question this as well and they are seasoned pros). I would therefore suggest that it is either out of scope for testing OR the workflow is significantly affecting the results.

I would say that I think workflow must be the answer. I have noticed more of a struggle in mixing in Ableton. Whether it's the design of the faders, the panning or something I couldn't be certain. I know I can get good results from Ableton however. I also know though that my mixes did sound different in Logic and again different in Pro Tools. Yes the tools are different but I have noticed there are similarities in mixes I do in each DAW.

What I don't feel is fair is to clearly say that others are wrong to think this. Music production is an art and if subconsciously the workflow affects the results then that in itself is very interesting and would make for an interesting study in iteself.
Old 30th June 2018
  #183
Here for the gear
 

Changing the color scheme in Ableton will change how you hear if you're in a suggestible mood or if you're suggestible by nature. Human senses get easily scrambled if you're paying the right kind of attention.

That's why the skill of mindfully stepping back and a healthy dose of skepticism are so useful to have for audio work and mixing.
Old 1st July 2018
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
Why are sound engineers on youtube with thousand of followers not part of this discussion?
Unless you're that "sound engineer" then it's not your thoughts. Don't you have any ideas of your own you can formulate, beyond the shallow and naive analysis you shared so far? While one can illustrate a point one makes with a video you have to bring something to a discussion to be part of it.

So, where's your DAW project that illustrate how bad Live sounds? If you find that difficult, maybe it's time to learn something? Just do it already!

Last edited by Mikael B; 8th August 2018 at 02:31 PM..
Old 1st July 2018
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
I am a professional and I mix & master in ableton live all the time - if you are getting a bad sound all that proves is your own ignorance of how to properly process your tracks....
Exactly.
Old 1st July 2018
  #186
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
Like I said I have no problems mixing my tracks in Ableton, and to my ear they all sound great. My general observation is that in Logic its easier and faster to get a balanced mix with plugins especially, I never mentioned sound quality or a so called difference in "summing engines". You can call me incompetent or whatever, but I really don't care. It's just plain ignorance if you think all DAWs behave the same way. I'm perfectly fine with Ableton, this will be my last post, what a waste of time.
It's easy to argue against straw men, like you do for some reason. When you're done with that then maybe you can try understanding what people are actually saying. Which isn't what you claim! So far, your "misunderstanding" of what is said does come off as quite intentional.

There is not one person, that I've seen here anyway, that doesn't think a producer can't prefer one DAW over another or that a certain producer may not work faster in one DAW than in another. To imply people disagreeing with you are saying that, which is what I hear coming from you, is ludicrous.

There are many valid reasons for preferring mixing in one DAW as well, but that Live should have a lesser audio engine, or sound "bad", are not part of those.

Last edited by Mikael B; 8th August 2018 at 02:32 PM..
Old 1st July 2018
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
Either incompetency
That's part of it. Even "seasoned" Pros aren't that savvy on why something goes on. They use tools and prefer some for whatever reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
I would therefore suggest that it is either out of scope for testing
Nothing is out of scope for testing. Digital audio is maths, Sound waves are physics and hearing is biological. While the human mind adds stuff to what is heard in the head of the music producer that is beside the point. The topic is DAWs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
I know I can get good results from Ableton however. I also know though that my mixes did sound different in Logic and again different in Pro Tools. Yes the tools are different but I have noticed there are similarities in mixes I do in each DAW.

What I don't feel is fair is to clearly say that others are wrong to think this. Music production is an art and if subconsciously the workflow affects the results then that in itself is very interesting and would make for an interesting study in iteself.
You can think this but all that has happened is that YOU work differently in one DAW than in another. That proves only that YOU make different mixes in different DAWs. I don't need another DAW to make a great mix, so I use Live. There are many others like me.

What I'm saying is, don't blame the tools. Blame your understanding of your tools and your missing knowledge of digital audio, audio physics and music production. That's what I did to advance my skills in music production. I acknowledged that despite years of experience I didn't know squat. So I went out and sought out the truths relevant to me and allowed my knowledge and experience to grow one step at a time. Learning never stops.

Do that and then use whatever tools you want for whatever you best see they fit for.
Old 9th July 2018
  #188
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alex921's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Unless you're that "sound engineer" then it's not your thoughts. Don't you have any ideas of your own you can formulate, beyond the shallow and naive analysis you shared so far? While one can illustrate a point one makes with a video you have to bring something to a discussion to be part of it.

So, where's your DAW projects that illustrate how bad Live sounds? If you find that difficult, maybe it's time to learn something? Just do it already!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundophiliac View Post
Changing the color scheme in Ableton will change how you hear if you're in a suggestible mood or if you're suggestible by nature. Human senses get easily scrambled if you're paying the right kind of attention.

That's why the skill of mindfully stepping back and a healthy dose of skepticism are so useful to have for audio work and mixing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
That's part of it. Even "seasoned" Pros aren't that savvy on why something goes on. They use tools and prefer some for whatever reason.



Nothing is out of scope for testing. Digital audio is maths, Sound waves are physics and hearing is biological. While the human mind adds stuff to what is heard in the head of the music producer that is beside the point. The topic is DAWs.



You can think this but all that has happened is that YOU work differently in one DAW than in another. That proves only that YOU make different mixes in different DAWs. I don't need another DAW to make a great mix, so I use Live. There are many others like me.

What I'm saying is, don't blame the tools. Blame your understanding of your tools and your missing knowledge of digital audio, audio physics and music production. That's what I did to advance my skills in music production. I acknowledged that despite years of experience I didn't know squat. So I went out and sought out the truths relevant to me and allowed my knowledge and experience to grow one step at a time. Learning never stops.

Do that and then use whatever tools you want for whatever you best see they fit for.
I couldn't resist to write you a message again here. So here I am back again, you can p*ss off with your philosophical bullsh*t. You, or others still haven't answered against my valid argument that all DAWs are coded differently. This is not rocket science, you numb nut.

A serious sound engineer will notice incompetence in Ableton when he/she starts mixing with 12 plugins on a single channel strip, because Ableton utilizes single core CPU per channel strip only, thus increasing latency.

This is one of the reasons why professional sound engineers do mastering in a mixing environment in Protools or Wavelab, etc. Please enlighten me with facts that I am incorrect when saying different DAWs are coded differently, as you previously did. This shows ur lack of incompetency on this subject, after all these years on GS, lol.
Old 9th July 2018
  #189
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login's Avatar
This topic can be resumed to a single issue: people who understand maths and people who don't, the second group believes in fairly tales too.
Old 9th July 2018
  #190
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
This topic can be resumed to a single issue: people who understand maths and people who don't, the second group believes in fairly tales too.
That sums up most (technical) discussions on Gearslutz.

Alistair
Old 9th July 2018
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
This topic can be resumed to a single issue: people who understand maths and people who don't, the second group believes in fairly tales too.
Well... I happen to be a mathematician. I don't believe DAWs differ sonically in any fundamental way. Do believe the Earth is flat though. And seriously, that moon landing? No-one in his right mind would buy that -- clearly a hoax.

On a more serious note: some of my students use a TI-84 calculator, some a Casio fx-CG20. The Casio is easier when searching for maxima of a function. The TI is easier when producing a table of values. Both however agree to the last digit on what the square root of 2 is. And both tell me 2+3 equals 5. And yes, probably both calculators OS's have been coded on a different chip in a different language. So what?

That's just like the difference between e.g. Live and Logic: convenience, personal preference, software fitting your workflow. Mix down 6 stems with all faders at zero though, and your output will be the same. The underlying code, no matter what language it's written in, will not change the fact that 2+3=5.

Personal preference is subtle and tricky. Colour scheme, graphical layout... Maybe Logic's fader is 300 pixels long and Live's fader is 250 pixels, and one simply feels more convenient when using a mouse to adjust it. Et cetera, ad nauseam. Boring stuff basically .
Old 10th July 2018
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
A serious sound engineer will notice incompetence in Ableton when he/she starts mixing with 12 plugins on a single channel strip, because Ableton utilizes single core CPU per channel strip only, thus increasing latency.
I must give you that your posts are very funny. Extremely uninformed to the extent that we must assume you're joking, which is why I laugh with you. Well played.

I'm leaving the obvious follow-up questions, that your gaping logical holes begs for, for the future as I don't want to waste any more time.

And yes, we are still waiting for your shared sets, test results et al. It will be a long wait, so no point thinking about it.

I'm going to use Ableton Live now and it's going to be glorious. There's nothing you can do about it. In yer face.
Old 10th July 2018
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
A serious sound engineer will notice incompetence in Ableton when he/she starts mixing with 12 plugins on a single channel strip, because Ableton utilizes single core CPU per channel strip only, thus increasing latency.
Err, what?
I have no idea whether Ableton is using just one single CPU core per channel strip (fwiw, it seems logical to me as we're dealing with serial processing here, which is usually taken care of by one CPU core only...) and/or whether other hosts are doing it differently (Logic for instance doesn't, multiple cores are used for multiple tracks/busses, hence for parallel processing, which again seems logical to me...), but regardless of all that, I have never heard CPU core distribution to be related to latencies.
Oh yes, you may have to raise your buffersizes in case your host isn't able to process things in time due to less than ideal multicore management - but that does in no way support your weird statement.
Plugins either add latency or they don't (some do, others don't). They do or don't do that regardless whether they're running of a single CPU core or multiple ones. And that's all there is about it.
And people are not using different programs for mastering because of better "latency distribution through multiple CPU cores" or whatever you may call it. Simply because something like that doesn't exist.
Old 10th July 2018
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Logic for instance doesn't, multiple cores are used for multiple tracks/busses, hence for parallel processing, which again seems logical to me...)
Despite Logic developer magic (very skilled people there) I think you are very mistaken here. Where's your proof of this claim?

This is an official quote about Logic Pro 8:

Quote:
"Logic breaks tasks down into threads that can be assigned to a single core for execution. It's not possible to split a single thread across multiple cores, although a single core may run multiple threads at the same time."
From
Tips for balancing multi-core performance (Apple support article)


The following quote concerns the current Logic Pro X:
Quote:
"The Playback Tracks setting replicates the behavior of previous versions of Logic."
Quote:
"The Playback & Live Tracks setting distributes the load to different threads in cases where a Track Stack that contains multiple software instrument channel strips is selected, or when more than one audio track is recording. If the computer has enough cores and there are no other existing DSP demands on the computer, each live channel strip can be processed by a different core."
From About the Multithreading setting in Logic Pro X

This is how Live works as well and most likely how most DAWs if not all of them work. One thread can't be spread to other cores in a real time system. You need to split up the work and this is currently very hard to do under the programming paradigms in use also by DAW developers. Changes could come I suppose, but so far they haven't to the best of my knowledge. Can't be ruled out I guess.

Please share your sources and test results, if any. If what you claim is true that's great of course. Until then I regard the above as indicators you are in the wrong on this particular detail.

I can also add that I called Apple support to make sure I understood this correctly (I got the link to the second quote from them). To their knowledge, as stated to me anyway, it doesn't work as you suggest.

Last edited by Mikael B; 10th July 2018 at 05:33 PM..
Old 10th July 2018
  #195
Gear Nut
 

teenagers get dumber and dumber, must be the music we feed them
Old 10th July 2018
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Despite Logic developer magic (very skilled people there) I think you are very mistaken here. Where's your proof of this claim?

This is an official quote about Logic Pro 8:
SNIP...
I don't see where this would be a contradiction to what I've said.
I know that single threads can't be split to multiple cores in a realtime system. But then, that is exactly what I said. Single channels/tracks are always processed by one core.
Old 12th July 2018
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I don't see where this would be a contradiction to what I've said.
I know that single threads can't be split to multiple cores in a realtime system. But then, that is exactly what I said. Single channels/tracks are always processed by one core.
Yes, On re-reading I realise I seem to have totally misunderstood what you meant. I'm sorry about that. Great that we agree on this too and some arguments about this are there now, if anyone will feel inclined to go up against them. I'm not excluding that one day, some marvel developer will make all of this obsolete.
Old 13th July 2018
  #198
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex921 View Post
Why are sound engineers on youtube with thousand of followers not part of this discussion? It intrigues me that every single one of them I follow, don't use Ableton for his/her final mix.

By simply saying "All DAWs are equal, because and the end of the day they are just one and zeroes" is just a foolish statement, you have very good developers and there are brilliant developers (Ableton has the latter).
Like, I still get the job done, I do my production and mixing inside Ableton. Don't get me wrong it's very do able to do mixing within Ableton, but I just noticed it's easier and faster to get a balanced mix in Logic. Believe what you want to believe I am not trying to convince anyone by saying it's easier to get a well balanced mix WITH PLUGINS IN Logic or it's ''summing engine''. Am I a f** wizard when saying Logic is coded differently then Ableton?

Who gives a f*** about YouTube followers...most of the "big" YouTube guys aren't that great at engineering (save for perhaps Warren Huart and Dave Pensado) most of them are teachers and as my Dad always said "those who can't do, teach"

I have hundreds of clients and produce songs with millions of plays in Ableton every day
It sounds just like everything else. When I need to record, I use PT or S1 because they have a better workflow and when I mix live stuff with a lot of outboard I use PT because it works much better with outboard. But for ITB, Ableton all day.
Old 16th July 2018
  #199
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I’m crazier than you - I replaced all my ableton utility gain plugins with BitShiftGain AU. Sounds massively better

I too am of the mind, that the UI, UX and different internal DAW plugs across the various DAWs is what creates this ”sonic difference myth”. And while DAWs might sum faders at unity exactly the same, the way their faders etc, when not at unity, affect the processing of audio might differ slightly too. But you know what real engineers do? They commit to their tools and work with what they got. Adapt, Improvise, Overcome.
Old 20th July 2018
  #200
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Found a video on PT HD vs Ableton summing test recently.

YouTube
Old 20th July 2018
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lllubi View Post
Found a video on PT HD vs Ableton summing test recently.

YouTube
Yes thanks, we couldn't have found that ourselves. As usual there are no source files. I guess withholding test files comes with the territory.

Personally, I don't watch such videos for "clues". I make tests for myself. I'm still using Ableton Live.
Old 10th August 2018
  #202
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I guess that "people who argue it’s only 1+1 are ********" would offend a few even though it’s an understatement. I wonder why "Hello World" code samples exist for programming languages while implementing a DAW is only a few codes of line.

This is what happened.

1. I’ve been using Ableton for years. I’ve bought Logic yesterday. The main reason was Alchemy (+ curiosity).
2. Without ever reading about it, I noticed that it sounded better than Ableton.
3. I found this thread and a few others, I learned that 1+1 = 2, so I tested it.

Before I tell you the experiment, I would like to underline how brilliant idea is to test the theory on single and unmodified audio files (no plugins, no gain changes, etc). Surprise, you don’t need a DAW to play original audio files. A music player can do it for you.

So, the test was simple.

1. I imported a track both into Logic and Live. Logic can’t import FLAC which is ridiculous. It’s also ******** that it modifies my source files. The person who is responsible for that should reincarnate as an earthworm.

2. I put the phase invert on the track in Live.

3. I exported the track from Logic, imported it into Live, and played them together. They nullified each other. (I used FabFilter Q 2 on -120 dB to check it).

4. I added FabFilter L2 on the track both in Logic and Live. I used the same (saved) setting that’s a slight modification of "Basic/Modern". Export + Import again. They were nowhere close to null each other. The lows were missing but I could hear the rest of the track.

So, as long as there is no warp, there are no plugins, they can save the original audio file. Wow. As soon as there is a plugin, it’s not 1+1.

My test doesn’t prove that any of the two sounds better than the other. It only proves that they don’t sound the same.

So, as long as your general music production workflow is importing a single audio file into your DAW, and exporting it without plugins, modifications, or tempo changes, the DAW makes little to zero difference. If it’s what you do, then you should not worry about their sound.

By the way, the fact that Logic touches my source audio files without my explicit consent is already enough reason to find a third DAW, even if I use copies (I do).
Old 10th August 2018
  #203
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
I guess that "people who argue it’s only 1+1 are ********" would offend a few even though it’s an understatement. I wonder why "Hello World" code samples exist for programming languages while implementing a DAW is only a few codes of line.

This is what happened.

1. I’ve been using Ableton for years. I’ve bought Logic yesterday. The main reason was Alchemy (+ curiosity).
2. Without ever reading about it, I noticed that it sounded better than Ableton.
3. I found this thread and a few others, I learned that 1+1 = 2, so I tested it.

Before I tell you the experiment, I would like to underline how brilliant idea is to test the theory on single and unmodified audio files (no plugins, no gain changes, etc). Surprise, you don’t need a DAW to play original audio files. A music player can do it for you.

So, the test was simple.

1. I imported a track both into Logic and Live. Logic can’t import FLAC which is ridiculous. It’s also ******** that it modifies my source files. The person who is responsible for that should reincarnate as an earthworm.

2. I put the phase invert on the track in Live.

3. I exported the track from Logic, imported it into Live, and played them together. They nullified each other. (I used FabFilter Q 2 on -120 dB to check it).

4. I added FabFilter L2 on the track both in Logic and Live. I used the same (saved) setting that’s a slight modification of "Basic/Modern". Export + Import again. They were nowhere close to null each other. The lows were missing but I could hear the rest of the track.

So, as long as there is no warp, there are no plugins, they can save the original audio file. Wow. As soon as there is a plugin, it’s not 1+1.

My test doesn’t prove that any of the two sounds better than the other. It only proves that they don’t sound the same.

So, as long as your general music production workflow is importing a single audio file into your DAW, and exporting it without plugins, modifications, or tempo changes, the DAW makes little to zero difference. If it’s what you do, then you should not worry about their sound.

By the way, the fact that Logic touches my source audio files without my explicit consent is already enough reason to find a third DAW, even if I use copies (I do).
Thanks for actually testing, instead of stopping in "I can hear ..." like many people.

You seem to imply "any plugin" (since you use the plural "plugins" multiple times) but you only tested one (FabFilter L2).

You seem to think people tested only with unmodified audio files, but plenty of people null tested DAWs WITH PLUGINS. Those tests confirm what the theory says it should happen.

Your test is the first I've ever seen that contradicts the theory.

IMO, you need to double (maybe triple) check that test, and you need to do more tests with other plugins and other DAWs to make sure it is really Live (you imply pretty hard you think Live is the one with problems) and not Logic or L2.
Old 10th August 2018
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottering View Post
Thanks for actually testing, instead of stopping in "I can hear ..." like many people.

You seem to imply "any plugin" (since you use the plural "plugins" multiple times) but you only tested one (FabFilter L2).

You seem to think people tested only with unmodified audio files, but plenty of people null tested DAWs WITH PLUGINS. Those tests confirm what the theory says it should happen.

Your test is the first I've ever seen that contradicts the theory.

IMO, you need to double (maybe triple) check that test, and you need to do more tests with other plugins and other DAWs to make sure it is really Live (you imply pretty hard you think Live is the one with problems) and not Logic or L2.
I will do further testing. Although I wrote I have been using Live for years, it was the hobby of mine I had the least time for. In a way, I am still a beginner. That’s what I want to change. There is a shiny new Push 2 on my desk. It’s one of the reasons I don’t want Logic sound better.

Besides, I find Logic’s interface unintuitive and slow compared to Live’s. And I have principles. I will not use a software that modifies my source files without asking me first.

Right now, I consider that when I thought Logic sounded better, it could have been the result of psychology (the built-in synths in Logic sounded nice and the EQ sounded better than Live’s), and the mixer.

As for the mixer. In the future, I plan to write music. In the past, I used Live for creating mixtapes. Hence, I tried the same in Logic for a few minutes after I played around with the synths. I didn’t care about the volume levels. I let the limiter to do the work. When it’s not a quick (first impression) test but a real mix, I would never let the limiter hit that hard.

I asked my girlfriend to do a blind A/B test with a single audio track played by both DAWs. We did it twice. She told me if she could hear any difference, she preferred the sound of Live. (She didn’t know anything of the DAWS, and her eyes were closed).

There are many variables. For example, it crossed my mind today that I used VST plugins in Live and AU in Logic. I should eliminate such differences for serious tests.

I have all the u-he synths. Maybe I will try comparing Hive. I am sure I will compare Kick 2.

Most likely, I will also try Reaper.

By the way, "better sounding" isn’t always better. For example, in the case of specific tracks, I prefer the 320kbit/s MP3 over FLAC or WAV. But that’s because some recordings are harsh. It doesn’t make the MP3 a better format than FLAC. Quite the opposite.
Old 10th August 2018
  #205
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I would like to address a few things I read in the thread.

1. Warping information in .asd files

Someone wrote it’s wrong to store it in the .asd files instead of in the project. I think there is a confusion here.

In my understanding of Live, the information is stored in the project. The .asd files are to export this information. When the track is imported in another project (or into the same project at another place), the .asd is used to save time. But then the project will contain any changes in the warping. It’s up to the user to export any further changes by pressing the "Save" button on the track.

I think it’s a perfect solution.

2. Oversampling

I read that "I see many projects not using oversampling" as a critique of those projects.

Oh dear.

Oversampling colors the sound.

There is a reason I can choose between three engines in Audirvana Plus to do the oversampling. They color the sound in three different ways.

A few weeks ago, I noticed that a test version of my mix sounded better in my car than the previous export. It turned out that I followed the recommendations of the FabFilter plugins. Both L2 and C2 oversampling color the sound in a way I don’t like. I ended up with turning it off everywhere in the mix. It sounds way better now.

Don’t trust the advice. Use your ear.
Old 10th August 2018
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
In my understanding of Live, the information is stored in the project. The .asd files are to export this information. When the track is imported in another project (or into the same project at another place), the .asd is used to save time. But then the project will contain any changes in the warping.
If you warp your sample in project A (120 BPM), allow saving .asd information along with the sample and then create a new project B (90 BPM) and import that sample into it, the sample will be warped at new project BPM (90 BPM) and may contain appropriate artefacts leading to confusion about quality. It makes sense to disable saving .asd files therefore, because it's easy to forget that you need to re-warp your samples if you re-use them in a project with different BPM.

Andrejs
Old 10th August 2018
  #207
Here for the gear
 

I did another quick null test using NI Supercharger GT.

Warping and Flex were off. I used the AU version in Live.

They didn’t null each other at all. The result sounded strange. There was a similarity between the L2 and the Supercharger tests. The highs remained or were boosted. The lows were lowered. They don’t sound the same though.

I used Logic only to do the export. I did the phase invert and mixing in Live.

To make it sure I did it right, I exported the track again, turning off the plugin in both DAWs. Without the plugin, they null each other.

The Supercharger GT was on the default setting. I just drop it on the track on both DAWS.

Again, this didn’t tell me anything about which DAW sounded better. All I know they sound different as soon as I use a plugin.

When I will have more time, I will try to null test both DAWS against themselves. I will export the same track with and without a plugin. I will make it sure the plugin should not change anything (for example, I can add a limiter to a quiet track, or a flat EQ).

By the way, I installed the Reaper. I deleted it after five minutes. It sounded horrible both with my high-end DAC and Bluetooth headphones. It was not a slight difference. It must have been some bug but I didn’t care. It shouldn’t have sounded that bad after I installed it. In fact, it generated a noise in my headphones as long as it was running, even without playing anything on it.
Old 10th August 2018
  #208
DAWs react to the way you use them.

To do an honest test you should create some midi parts on a variety of machines and plug ins.
Say - a drum part, some keyboard chords, a synth bass etc.
Record the parts into Logic.
Record the same parts with the same instruments into Live.

Then make a basic mix of the backing track and bounce out to stereo wav.
Then play both Logic and Live wavs (blind if possible).
I'm guessing you won't hear any big difference.
Old 10th August 2018
  #209
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I did more testing.

When I did the null test with the L2 for the first time, the setting I used had -2.5 dBTP on the output. (Yes, in both DAWs). They not only didn’t null each other, but they made the result distorted. So it’s obvious that the difference is not only some volume level.

However, if I set the FabFilter L2 to 0 dBTP, Logic and Live null each other.

The conclusion is that the difference doesn’t always appear when there is a plugin on the track. It appears when the plugin does/changes something. In other words, the plugins I tested behave differently in the two DAWs.

The question is, why.

I will test midi with instruments as well, but the fact that audio effect plugins don’t behave the same way is already an issue.
Old 10th August 2018
  #210
Here for the gear
 

Kick 2 nulls on Logic + Live

Diva did not. It seems it depends on the plugin and also what the plugin is doing.

Anyway, I don’t hear the Logic’s Diva sounding better (or even different) than the Live’s Diva.

I guess it’s safe to stick with Live. I will do that. But it’s not too bright to say that it’s only ones and zeroes, and there is no difference. There is, and it’s easy to measure.
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