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Ableton - sound quality DAW Software
Old 28th February 2019
  #601
Ksp
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10 is better than 9 sonically , no question but stems from 10 into cubase 9 sound better than direct out of ableton 10......

I still find ableton cant cope well with complex layers and the more you add sonically the worse it sounds really , its odd , like its compressing audio .

I think the ableton summing engine is just not really the best we have on offer at all .

Digital summing is the arse end of sound engineering for me.

Analogue Summing via a good multi track Da into a nice summing mixer or console just sounds worlds apart.
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Old 28th February 2019
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksp View Post
10 is better than 9 sonically , no question but stems from 10 into cubase 9 sound better than direct out of ableton 10......

I still find ableton cant cope well with complex layers and the more you add sonically the worse it sounds really , its odd , like its compressing audio .

I think the ableton summing engine is just not really the best we have on offer at all .

Digital summing is the arse end of sound engineering for me.

Analogue Summing via a good multi track Da into a nice summing mixer or console just sounds worlds apart.
Post the repeatable proof in sets/projects of yours. A Splice account is free for hosting and easy to share from. Because I call Balderdash! on all those statements except the last. Nothing wrong going analogue even if it's very possible to get 99.99% in that direction in the digital domain. However, every analogue chain is unique. That's valuable, I think.

Last edited by Mikael B; 1st March 2019 at 02:04 AM..
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Old 2nd March 2019
  #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksp View Post
10 is better than 9 sonically , no question but stems from 10 into cubase 9 sound better than direct out of ableton 10......

I still find ableton cant cope well with complex layers and the more you add sonically the worse it sounds really , its odd , like its compressing audio .

I think the ableton summing engine is just not really the best we have on offer at all .

Digital summing is the arse end of sound engineering for me.

Analogue Summing via a good multi track Da into a nice summing mixer or console just sounds worlds apart.
No. No. No. Did you not read the last 21 pages? Argh.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #604
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Originally Posted by gsxdsm View Post
No. No. No. Did you not read the last 21 pages? Argh.
My prediction is that we are all in for a long, long wait for re-testable proof material from Ksp. Posting tests you've done takes some effort as opposed to merely posting beliefs.

As an aside, I think we could have discussion concerning null analysis as it would seem many people believing what they think they hear (most of us) don't sufficiently know the proper procedures for testing and analyzing those beliefs. While it's not rocket science exactly there are quite a few gotchas to avoid and when you don't get 100% nulls that doesn't mean you have unusable results necessarily.
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Old 2nd March 2019
  #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
My prediction is that we are all in for a long, long wait for re-testable proof material from Ksp. Posting tests you've done takes some effort as opposed to merely posting beliefs.

As an aside, I think we could have discussion concerning null analysis as it would seem many people believing what they think they hear (most of us) don't sufficiently know the proper procedures for testing and analyzing those beliefs. While it's not rocket science exactly there are quite a few gotchas to avoid and when you don't get 100% nulls that doesn't mean you have unusable results necessarily.
in fact, most of the failures to null do turn out to be attributable to flawed testing methodology. .

In any case, there is no 'testing methodology' more flawed than mixing a few songs in DAW #1 off the seat of your pants, mixing a few songs in DAW #2 just as casually, and then complaining that they "came out different".

I wonder if it is incredible ignorance or incredible arrogance that leads people to assume they are capable of making all the exact same decisions in both DAWs ... and to the exact same values.
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Old 2nd March 2019
  #606
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I will say this and only this. I have no dog in this fight between 9&10. But a very well respected genius coder and developer for a top of the line digital interface told me privately that it’s very easy to make things null. Even when there are clear differences they can still null. He says there are other things going on. He can make very clear and obvious differences in the audio engine and it will null. So I extrapolate from that that there CAN be differences that gross mathematical calculations are relatively immune to.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I will say this and only this. I have no dog in this fight between 9&10. But a very well respected genius coder and developer for a top of the line digital interface told me privately that it’s very easy to make things null. Even when there are clear differences they can still null. ....
In a way it IS 'easy' to make two DAWs null. All you have to do is make the exact same decisions on both DAWs! Something that every serious Tester does. Something that no casual Difference-Hearer does.

44,100 24-bit numbers every second and every last 1 and 0 is the same. Perhaps you misunderstood what he was saying. I suggest you invite your friend to come into the thread and explain to the forum exactly how nulling files can sound "different". We have a number of genius coders participating at GS and I am sure they too, would be very interested in hearing about the 'science' behind this.

As a simple matter of proof, perhaps he could simply upload 2 files that can be shown to null 100% - but that everyone hears as sounding "clearly" different (and can pick out blindfolded every time). Since he says this is "very easy" to do, let's hear it!

I suspect a Nobel Prize awaits!
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Old 3rd March 2019
  #608
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AS I said that's my only comment. This was a private conversation. I will not drag him into this as he clearly didn't want to argue.
Old 3rd March 2019
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I will say this and only this. I have no dog in this fight between 9&10. But a very well respected genius coder and developer for a top of the line digital interface told me privately that it’s very easy to make things null. Even when there are clear differences they can still null. He says there are other things going on. He can make very clear and obvious differences in the audio engine and it will null. So I extrapolate from that that there CAN be differences that gross mathematical calculations are relatively immune to.
I'm pretty sure you misunderstood your friend.

>Even when there are clear differences they can still null

That doesn't even make sense. Like you understand what it means for two audio files to null right? It's literally the same numbers.
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Old 3rd March 2019
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
AS I said that's my only comment. This was a private conversation. I will not drag him into this as he clearly didn't want to argue.

If I believed in magical property of software that contradicted the laws of physics as well as the experience of literally every single person who has ever actually tried this, I don't think I would be up for "arguing" it on a public forum either.

I agree with gsxdsm, it is highly likely that you have misinterpreted what he said. Nulling files that "sound different" will never be posted - by anyone - because they do not exist.
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Old 3rd March 2019
  #611
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Originally Posted by nenova View Post
The fact is Ableton is the best sounding daw. the greatest sound designers and pros who make spacial and all kinds of unique sounds are DEFINITELY on ableton. ALL the biggest records all over the world and most songs you hear and go WOOOW are actually sounds from ableton. These engineers may do their mixing in pro tools or whatever but the sounds they are mixing came from what???? FROM ABLETON. they say they do their composition in ableton then transfer stems into protools for mixing but those sounds they are mixing are ableton's sounds. moving around some volume faders and adding some effects dont make them pro tools'. The ableton packs are also the highest quality their is in the world today. multi-sampled using the best analog and digital gear you could not even possibly think of and packed as lossless AIFF format so there isn't any loss of quality. People think logic has better sounding instruments tan ableton but thats an easy lie a noob would believe. ableton's packs, apart from the gear recording them are NOT pre-processed so they are intentionally made to sound as DRY as possible so the sound designer can have full privilege to choose what he wants to do next. If you have used logic as i have, and been producing music as long as i have, its easy to tell that logic's "great" sounds are pre-processed. they are already tweaked before you ever tweak them so they are made to "sound good out of the box". As a sound designer or mix engineer you don't want someone else sound designing for you want you want to design. you want the files of the multi-sampled audio as closet to the original as they could ever be. leave the processing and tweaking to me. their job should simply be to record them well then i will take it from there. thats why i bought a daw anyways. Lets bring this down to the two most popular daws in the pro-audio world. Avid Pro tools and Ableton live. As most people say, "compose in ableton, mix in pro tools" but leveling up some volume faders in pro tools doesn't change the inherent PARENT truth that the sounds you are mixing are ableton's. you dont ever believe that 80s silly lie that you need a special magic copy of pro tools to mix a song because pro tools has some sexy romantic volume faders that...........ohh please! a fader is just a fader. we have mixed many albums on merely analog gear without even a computer. To be honest, The real industry standard and heart of all music in the world today is ableton.
Oh geez...
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Old 3rd March 2019
  #612
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Originally Posted by nenova View Post
...ohh please! a fader is just a fader.
that's the first correct thing you have said. If you follow this statement to its logical conclusion, the fader in Ableton is also, "just a fader". Which means that a statement like:

Quote:
Ableton is the best sounding daw

is precisely just as incorrect as a similar statement about any other DAW
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Old 3rd March 2019
  #613
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You know unless you’ve run multiple null tests yourself in many different circumstances you wouldn’t be able to tell for sure. Many people on this forum could be paid off by competitors too so you can’t trust people’s word. Also, coding is more advanced than you think, what you think is a static program may be subtly modifying saved .wav files to ‘null’ without you knowing when you import to other DAWs, to decrease suspicion. I mean how would you know for sure? How do we even know how computers work? Have you opened a microchip and examined every microscopic logic block, etc?
Old 4th March 2019
  #614
Human perception, aural or otherwise, depends on all the senses, experience, prejudice and probably stuff we don't know about. That's why the blind test was invented. Do one. Turn off the warping in any applicable DAW (Live, Logic, Bitwig, etc.) and use common stems with no EQ, or FX. I did this once with white noise, pink noise, brown noise, sines and squares and loops with several DAWs. Output to stereo files. Have someone play them for you. See if you can accurately recognize the DAW by the output.
Old 4th March 2019
  #615
Quote:
Originally Posted by nenova View Post
The fact is Ableton is the best sounding daw. the greatest sound designers and pros who make spacial and all kinds of unique sounds are DEFINITELY on ableton. [... a ton deleted...] The real industry standard and heart of all music in the world today is ableton.
Before everyone starts responding to this: this is a joke, right? Surely this must be a joke... And a somewhat funny one at that. So can we agree to not reply, take it seriously or otherwise spend time on it?
Old 4th March 2019
  #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosmeister View Post
Before everyone starts responding to this: this is a joke, right? Surely this must be a joke... And a somewhat funny one at that. So can we agree to not reply, take it seriously or otherwise spend time on it?
On that basis, we could delete the entire thread!

And every other thread with the same premise but a different brand of DAW in the title.
Old 4th March 2019
  #617
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Originally Posted by chaosmeister View Post
Before everyone starts responding to this: this is a joke, right? Surely this must be a joke... And a somewhat funny one at that. So can we agree to not reply, take it seriously or otherwise spend time on it?
Might be inspired by Timbaland´s masterclass.
Old 4th March 2019
  #618
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
On that basis, we could delete the entire thread!
Nah... this one was funnier than the rest. And, let's be honest, it didn't really read like it was meant seriously, did it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
And every other thread with the same premise but a different brand of DAW in the title.
Now... that's where we disagree. Ableton is just like most others, but Logic... Logic is clearly superior to other DAWs. I mean, it just has a buttery smoothness on top... a silky softness around the edges of the midrange... a firm bottom-end... it really grabs you where it hurts... A mix coming from Logic really makes you go "ouch baby, give me some more..." And when you wake up alone the next morning, you really hope she comes back for more...
<oops, wrong forum... >
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Old 7th March 2019
  #619
Deleted fcbdeac
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Originally Posted by Ksp View Post
10 is better than 9 sonically , no question but stems from 10 into cubase 9 sound better than direct out of ableton 10......
I am late to this party, but seriously like WTF?! Is there any actual proof to this? I do know there was some recently discovered (and fixed) coding issues that could affect sound quality with pre-Live 10 releases, but this is the first time I have ever heard anyone say 10 is better than 9 sonically.

I demoed Live 10 and while I liked some of the new features, overall I was annoyed by some of the changes they made, mostly changes that screwed with my specific workflow, so I didnt upgrade from Live 9. And though I didnt demo to specifically test it, I didnt notice any differences in sound quality. If what you say is true, then damn.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksp View Post
I still find ableton cant cope well with complex layers and the more you add sonically the worse it sounds really , its odd , like its compressing audio .
I think there may be some truth to this, but then again, I think if you stack enough tracks hitting same same frequencies without proper gain staging, automation, editing and processing along the way, eventually you will run into this sort of issue with any DAW. Maybe some DAWs hit this "compressing audio" threshold sooner than others? I donno.

Personally, I find that with any song and any DAW, less usually means more
Old 7th March 2019
  #620
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Originally Posted by usemame View Post

I demoed Live 10 and while I liked some of the new features, overall I was annoyed by some of the changes they made, mostly changes that screwed with my specific workflow, so I didnt upgrade from Live 9. And though I didnt demo to specifically test it, I didnt notice any differences in sound quality. If what you say is true, then damn.....
When Ableton says they have improved the audio engine, this doesn't mean it's audible or that a set rendered in Live 9 won't null with the same set rendered in 10. It also doesn't mean Live 9 isn't a competent DAW that can work fine for years to come. It just means there have been some improvements.

Instead of repeating the discussion points again, as if nothing valuable hadn't already been posted months before KSP's uncorroborated "insights", may I suggest you read all the pages of this discussion? That is, if you're interested.
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Old 7th March 2019
  #621
Deleted fcbdeac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
When Ableton says they have improved the audio engine, this doesn't mean it's audible or that a set rendered in Live 9 won't null with the same set rendered in 10. It also doesn't mean Live 9 isn't a competent DAW that can work fine for years to come. It just means there have been some improvements.

Instead of repeating the discussion points again, as if nothing valuable hadn't already been posted months before KSP's uncorroborated "insights", may I suggest you read all the pages of this discussion? That is, if you're interested.
Of course I am interested.. why else would I post here. Do you seriously expect people to read 21 pages of arguing, misinformation and tit for tat nonsense? I read page 1 and 3 pages back and that was enough time wasted. I am looking for fact based proof backing up statements like the one I originally responded to, if any such things exist.

"improved the audio engine.. there have been some improvements" what does this mean? Exactly what improvements have been made to impact sound quality? A direct link to a source outlining these points and/or a bullet point repostable comment sticky for noob questions like mine would be awesome for deciphering this thread!

You seem to know a lot about Ableton judging from the amount of posts you have in this subforum, so yes, I am seriously interested and hope you (and Ksp) can provide me with some fact based proof.
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Old 7th March 2019
  #622
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Originally Posted by Deleted fcbdeac View Post
I am late to this party, but seriously like WTF?! Is there any actual proof to this?
I have been on Gearslutz for over 15 years. I have read many many claims about audible differences in "sound engines" in a never ending series of threads that read pretty much like conspiracy theories. And they have a similar uncanny zombie-like staying power. They can be killed, but they keep coming back.

In all those 15 years and dozens and dozens of threads with claims of 'different sound', not once has anyone manned-up and publicly demonstrated their supposed ability to discern this 'audible' difference. Never mind passing a blind test, not once has anyone even risen to the challenge. They just give excuses. There has also been zero scientific or technical evidence presented to support the existence of this 'difference'. Not once has anyone provided anything more than a flat, egotistical declaration of "I hear it".

Blowhards.
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Old 7th March 2019
  #623
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Originally Posted by Deleted fcbdeac View Post
Of course I am interested.. why else would I post here. Do you seriously expect people to read 21 pages of arguing, misinformation and tit for tat nonsense?
All I need to know.
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