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Ableton - sound quality DAW Software
Old 23rd April 2018
  #31
Gear Addict
 

I work a lot with Ableton, Cubase and occasionally Pro Tools. I did a check with a session in stems. Put them in all the DAW's and made bounces. They all nulled, not only the bounces but I recorded the Playbacks too. No difference.

Important is that you don't warp stuff in Ableton when not necessary. Just a warning to everybody in Ableton 10, couldn't check in 9; I had some sounds which were warped in BEATS and even with no tempo change or tune stuff it STILL did some alterations to the sound. Its just safer to not warp when not necessary....
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Old 23rd April 2018
  #32
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poshook's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andfra View Post
I been A/B Ableton 9 and 10 with Mixcraft 8 for days now and there is
a significant difference in sound.

Ableton 9/10 - Its overall more treble oriented with a lot of details in the mids.
Its kinda thin sound.

Mixcraft 8- Sound is much more fat-ish with more lows. Its overall sounds bigger
and better to my ears. This DAW got a new sound engine and its really quick to.

Another thing i recognise is that ableton 10 fires up is alot faster than the 9.
With maximum of clips its take me about 5 sec with 10 and 45 sec with 9. Big improvment there. Soundwise its hard to say.

My question: Is there possible to change presets in sound so that ableton sounds more thick and big, just like mixcraft?
-300dbFS and more means there is no difference
Old 24th April 2018
  #33
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by andfra View Post
I been A/B Ableton 9 and 10 with Mixcraft 8 for days now and there is
a significant difference in sound.

Ableton 9/10 - Its overall more treble oriented with a lot of details in the mids.
Its kinda thin sound.
People have been saying this about Live for years. This was true until version 9.1... Live actually has cleaner SRC and a lower noise floor than Cubase, Digital Performer, Pro Tools, Sequoia, Studio One, Reaper... (Granted most are virtually inaudible differences, but they're measurable...)

Diehard believers that DAW x is superior to DAW y should visit the link below and see for themselves...
If you want a real reality check look at Saide 6's SRC and noise floor.

SRC Comparisons

Quote:
Originally Posted by andfra View Post
My question: Is there possible to change presets in sound so that ableton sounds more thick and big, just like mixcraft?
Sure, create a sine sweep and export the file form Mixcraft. Now export the same sine sweep from Live. Now capture each exported file with a 'Matching-EQ'. Use Live's export as the source and Mixcraft's as the 'destination' and hit match.
(Keep in mind EQ-matching isn't flawless. Matching the same source and destination using Ozone's EQ-Match doesn't give you a flat response, you get small ripples if you turn smoothing off and percent to 100.)

Or you could export an impulse file from each DAW and use it in a convolution plugin.
(Also not necessarily flawless, if anything it's more likely to be less accurate than the above.)

I'd be curious what results you get.
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Old 24th April 2018
  #34
Here for the gear
Hey guys I have created this SOUND ENGINEER SURVEY for my university research project - It's very short, thanks!

Sound Engineer Survey
Old 24th April 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoodler View Post
There are numerous threads about Ableton Live sounding dull and thin as compared to other DAWs. I noticed a huge difference between Maschine and Ableton Live 9. Maschine (2), sounds big in comparison to Ableton 9. But when it comes down to it, yea, splitting hairs. They both work great for what they do.
This might indeed happen whenever you play 3rd party drum samples.
Maschine and MPC offer AHD envelopes on single drum hits which dont cut off the initial attack as much as Abletons samplers.
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Old 24th April 2018
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elcct View Post
Reminds me a video of a guy tweaking bypassed compressor and being impressed by its transparency...


It happened to me tweaking turned off EQ I even noticed changes when i was tweaking EQ even though they where not there at all
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Old 24th April 2018
  #37
Gear Maniac
 

It's interesting to hear poeples theories. I've had engineers saying "yes I can hear it was mixed in Live".

All very cool stuff though from what I see there must be an element of perception. I have never thought one sounds bad or another good, just different. And if it's all true which I am sure it is then it's amazing how perception can influence us.

I assume warping does not effect midi, as most of my initial arrangements are midi. Perhaps I should do the test myself one day as it seems that styles most minds. I am sure it would be a valuable thing to try.


I hope it's true as I am starting to work a lot deeper in Live.
Old 24th April 2018
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
It's interesting to hear poeples theories. I've had engineers saying "yes I can hear it was mixed in Live".

All very cool stuff though from what I see there must be an element of perception. I have never thought one sounds bad or another good, just different. And if it's all true which I am sure it is then it's amazing how perception can influence us.

I assume warping does not effect midi, as most of my initial arrangements are midi. Perhaps I should do the test myself one day as it seems that styles most minds. I am sure it would be a valuable thing to try.


I hope it's true as I am starting to work a lot deeper in Live.

No Warping does not affect midi some VSTs can sound remarkably different at higher sample rates.
Old 24th April 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lllubi View Post
This might indeed happen whenever you play 3rd party drum samples.
Maschine and MPC offer AHD envelopes on single drum hits which dont cut off the initial attack as much as Abletons samplers.
A drum sample in Simpler (classic mode, envelopes at zero, no warping, no filter etc.) will null 100% with a sample on an audio track (again no warping or fades, match the volume properly etc.). Same with Sampler.

NB. perform the test at 120bpm to make sure the audio and MIDI grids line up properly.
Old 24th April 2018
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explorer View Post
A drum sample in Simpler (classic mode, envelopes at zero, no warping, no filter etc.) will null 100% with a sample on an audio track (again no warping or fades, match the volume properly etc.). Same with Sampler.

NB. perform the test at 120bpm to make sure the audio and MIDI grids line up properly.
Have a read on F9 Audio´s tutorial on kick drums.

F9 Free Production Kick drums – F9 Audio | Royalty Free loops | Wav Samples | Apple Loops | Synth Presets | Free DAW Tutorials

Import their free kicks and try to null them.

Besides AKAI and Native Instruments there are not many companies which make samplers for transient work.
Old 24th April 2018
  #41
Gear Maniac
On that SRC site, even the old Live 9.03 resampling is better than most other DAWs. Live also has had 64-bit summing since Live 7, some 10 years before Logic and Cubase.

If the BPM in the Audio Clip and the BPM in the project truly match (that is, it is truly unstretched), then Warp in Beats, Tones, Texture or Re-Pitch does NOT change the sound.

Anyone can test this by putting 2 copies of the same unwarped audio in 2 tracks and adding a Utility with phase inverted to one of the tracks, they should null at his stage (if not then there is clearly some user error).
Then you can enable Warp in one of the Clips and check the Warp modes.
Beats, Tones, Texture and Re-Pitch will still null 100%, just like the 2 identical unwarped Clips. Not a single artifact seen with Voxengo Span set to -180 range.

I also find people's theories about "hearing differences" amusing, as digital audio (the actual final product of all DAWs, other things like drivers, DAC or reproduction media are not related to the DAW) is 100% percent measurable, recordable and reproducible, yet people never have a couple of WAV files to prove their statements.

I mean, it is easy, load the same audio on a empty project in the DAWs to be compared, get a exported WAV from each DAW. Then everyone can check if there is really any difference.

Not only that, it is also just as easy to compress and put the DAW projects in a zip file on Dropbox or whatever, so others that have the same DAWs can check that too.
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Old 24th April 2018
  #42
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login's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottering View Post
I also find people's theories about "hearing differences" amusing, as digital audio (the actual final product of all DAWs, other things like drivers, DAC or reproduction media are not related to the DAW) is 100% percent measurable, recordable and reproducible, yet people never have a couple of WAV files to prove their statements.

I mean, it is easy, load the same audio on a empty project in the DAWs to be compared, get a exported WAV from each DAW. Then everyone can check if there is really any difference.

Not only that, it is also just as easy to compress and put the DAW projects in a zip file on Dropbox or whatever, so others that have the same DAWs can check that too.
People prefer to cling to their magical beliefs.
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Old 25th April 2018
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
It's interesting to hear poeples theories. I've had engineers saying "yes I can hear it was mixed in Live".

All very cool stuff though from what I see there must be an element of perception. I have never thought one sounds bad or another good, just different. And if it's all true which I am sure it is then it's amazing how perception can influence us.

I assume warping does not effect midi, as most of my initial arrangements are midi. Perhaps I should do the test myself one day as it seems that styles most minds. I am sure it would be a valuable thing to try.


I hope it's true as I am starting to work a lot deeper in Live.
MIDI is not as tight as it used to be in any DAW since USB is the standard for MIDI.Search for MIDI jitter. MIDI jitter differs quite a lot in todays DAWs.
Old 25th April 2018
  #44
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lllubi View Post
MIDI is not as tight as it used to be in any DAW since USB is the standard for MIDI.Search for MIDI jitter. MIDI jitter differs quite a lot in todays DAWs.
sure... usb sucks.. funny enough, it was a few years ago, but there was an article measuring midi jitter on different daws, and actually Ableton was either the best or second best at the time, way better then logic etc.... but i'm sure changes have been made...
Old 26th April 2018
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
sure... usb sucks.. funny enough, it was a few years ago, but there was an article measuring midi jitter on different daws, and actually Ableton was either the best or second best at the time, way better then logic etc.... but i'm sure changes have been made...
I use both in case one is messed up during an update. Will get even more complicated once MPE MIDI becomes the new MIDI standard.
Old 28th April 2018
  #46
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What would you guys say about those affirmations.. just curious, don't wanna die fool..
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcel View Post
It's funny because it's exactly the same question I ask 10 months ago in another forum. And, I didn't find the right answer, because there is no answer. This is the limit with Logic.
I don't know why but when I mix dance or punch music with Protools, I am oblige to use the Waves Rbass plugin to boost bass and add punch that I can't get with a EQ.
When I go back to logic, I never use Rbass because with the internal Logic EQ, I just increase low frequency and I get a very strong and powerful bass in my mix. It's a typical behavior which Logic.
Unfortunately, I compose more world/acoustic music than Electro/EDM music. And another behavior of Logic is to make a strange merge with high frequencies.
Contrary to Low frequency, Logic is not very subtile when you use plugin to add air and shining sound without harsh. Personally, I had lots of frustrations in lots of situations. I tried all the EQ available, I bought all Acustica Aqua EQ which are the best to add soft high end, but none gave good results.
It's why most of the time I mixe with Protools. It's so easy to have a very clean, sweet shining high end.
However, the problem with Protools is the midi editing that I don't find easy and quick.

Finally, I try Reaper. It's a good compromise between Logic/Cubase, (for midi editing), and Protools (for audio editing).

Of coarse, if you just import and read an audio track in Logic, Protools, or Reaper you will get the same sound, but when you insert plugin (play a loop through Kontakt) and add EQ, compressor etc. The result start to be totally different.

I worked with Logic and Protools during 20 years. Finally 10 month ago I decided to learn Reaper because after some quick tests, it was so easy to make a good mix and get a good sound, with clear highs, relief and warm sound.

I use Magic AB when I am mixing, and I was so frustrated when I was comparing my Logic mix with a shining sound reference. It's not more the case now.

Conclusion, Logic is the base of your frustration as it was for me. It's not an advocacy for Reaper because you could get the same result with other Daw, but if you miss this high end quality, think about testing other Daw instead of thinking that a magical plugin EQ could solve you problem.
I'm not making fun of that guy's statements.. just want to add some oil on the fire camp..
If you're interested in chiming on the other thread, there it is:

Best EQ Plugin(s)

Regards
Old 28th April 2018
  #47
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsblack View Post
What would you guys say about those affirmations.. just curious, don't wanna die fool..
Thanks



I'm not making fun of that guy's statements.. just want to add some oil on the fire camp..
If you're interested in chiming on the other thread, there it is:

Best EQ Plugin(s)

Regards

Please Jsblack, it's not an "affirmation", it's my experience, my feeling and my motivation to left Logic.

Lot's of other users could have a different feeling and opinion.

I was sharing my experience with somebody who had the same frustration. It's why I propose to test other DAW like protools and Reaper.
Old 28th April 2018
  #48
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jsblack's Avatar
 

Sorry so.. but "feelings" remain a feeling not concrete reality..
don't you think it might be a different setup/link between Kontakt and some Daws that might have mess things up..?
Genuinaly interested as i'm demoing reaper..
Old 28th April 2018
  #49
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsblack View Post
Sorry so.. but "feelings" remain a feeling not concrete reality..
don't you think it might be a different setup/link between Kontakt and some Daws that might have mess things up..?
Genuinaly interested as i'm demoing reaper..
Indeed, a feeling is just a feeling, but strong enough to make me change my DAW.

I am not a technician but a composer/producer. I spend so much time when I was mixing with Logic, and it's so fast now with Reaper.

Maybe it's a placebo fx, or homeophatic medicine, but for me, it works.

I use lot's of sound banks in Kontakt and I thought some of them was bad, like Embertone solo strings, but there aren't in Reaper. I don't know what happen with plugins (I mainly work with virtual instruments) but I shouldn't be the only one to feel the difference.

If you try Reaper, (which is not easy to tame) tell us if you feel a difference with your favorite EQ plugins if you can make a quick mix ?
Old 28th April 2018
  #50
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French are the only people using Homeopathy.. (even to take care of animals..) so i can feel the actual effect but maybe you're from Texas..?
I use a lot of VI's too and often, i'm tempted to let them do their job to the end.. instead of bouncing in place bypassing effects to be able to carve the mix further..
I've begun a test track in Reaper using VIs and for now, i can't say i hear any noticeable difference on my solo6be, I might throw some more aggressive Eq on VIs to see..
Thanks for your time Orcel appreciate the exchange
Old 28th April 2018
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsblack View Post
What would you guys say about those affirmations.. just curious, don't wanna die fool..
Thanks



I'm not making fun of that guy's statements.. just want to add some oil on the fire camp..
If you're interested in chiming on the other thread, there it is:

Best EQ Plugin(s)

Regards
How do you dial in your EQs?
Are different controllers really delivering identical results starting with a mouse?
Old 28th April 2018
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

i have personally done a null test with live against a couple of other DAWs and proven that there is no difference. the only difference i did find is that live removes clicks at the ends of clips for you, which can apparently be turned off, but in no way effects sound quality.

what was your process? because something has either gone wrong or you are falling for one of the many flaws of the human brain
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Old 28th April 2018
  #53
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elcct View Post
Reminds me a video of a guy tweaking bypassed compressor and being impressed by its transparency...
that sounds awesome. please link me :D
Old 28th April 2018
  #54
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zedsdeadbaby View Post
...and a lower noise floor
digital audio has a noise floor??? where is it coming from?
Old 29th April 2018
  #55
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardNolan View Post
All very cool stuff though from what I see there must be an element of perception...

...And if it's all true which I am sure it is then it's amazing how perception can influence us.



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Old 4th May 2018
  #56
Gear Head
It's strange because I've heard mixes from friends, without previously knowing what daw they use, and been able to say 'hey, you're using Logic aren't you?'.
For an amateur engineer it seems there's a fatter, almost juicier, shiny sound that's easier to get from Logic. I've heard stuff from Ableton sound similar but only from an experienced professional. Quite an odd phenomenon.
Old 4th May 2018
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejazz View Post
It's strange because I've heard mixes from friends, without previously knowing what daw they use, and been able to say 'hey, you're using Logic aren't you?'.
For an amateur engineer it seems there's a fatter, almost juicier, shiny sound that's easier to get from Logic. I've heard stuff from Ableton sound similar but only from an experienced professional. Quite an odd phenomenon.

A baseless observation... You are talking what, 2-3 friends? You may have subconsciously known they used logic, or just guessed right. It would be different if this was a much larger sample size and the test was blind.


The only other identifying factor is going to be stock effects. Logic might have better sounding compressors or a better stock limiter than Ableton, but that does not mean the DAW sounds better. In a blind test, there is no wy you are going to point out what DAW was used, especially if plug-ins were used in place of the stock FX.
Old 4th May 2018
  #58
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by piratejazz View Post
It's strange because I've heard mixes from friends, without previously knowing what daw they use, and been able to say 'hey, you're using Logic aren't you?'.
I had the same personal experience with a song (Youtube) of a friend of mine. I ask him if it was mixed with Logic because i had some doubts with high frequencies. It was the case.
Old 4th May 2018
  #59
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMMST View Post
A baseless observation... You are talking what, 2-3 friends? You may have subconsciously known they used logic, or just guessed right. It would be different if this was a much larger sample size and the test was blind.


The only other identifying factor is going to be stock effects. Logic might have better sounding compressors or a better stock limiter than Ableton, but that does not mean the DAW sounds better. In a blind test, there is no wy you are going to point out what DAW was used, especially if plug-ins were used in place of the stock FX.
I definitely didn't know they used it. Was more like acquaintances than close friends, but yeah, a small sample size. There was a definite identifying sound that may well be to do with the stock effects. I'm just saying it happened.
Old 5th May 2018
  #60
Gear Maniac
Simpler explanation is that one or few of your friends that use Logic are simply more skilled than your other friends, including other friends that also use Logic but their stuff did not impress you enough for you to ask them what they use.

It is likely they mentioned Logic or not using Live in the past (maybe indirectly, like when talking about Apple or Alchemy), and that was what actually made you associate that person with Logic later.
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