help!! rnb pop song, ssl mix gone wrong!

[butterfly]

ok guys really need your help here. Song was tracked on a aws 900 and mixed on a G series. We have had a nightmare with this one, singers were not on the money and we had to spend hours moving vocals and drums about, we have been through 3 engineers cause first two guys studio gave us were pretty useless for the task, 3rd guy who did the mix was ok but didn's seem to have a clear vision for the mix or much experience with rnb. Anyay the end result is a mix with zero vibe and a complete turkey in my opinion. We are looking for someone to remix it and some opinions as to what it needs. Have also uploaded a very rough unbalanced mix done pre this on a digital desk which we ran off while we were editing just to get an idea of where we were at, despite the fact that it's not a mix and instruments are not balanced, there seems to be more vibe and energy about it. Anyway really need some input on this, thanks

[djui5]

hahahahha

Whoever mixed this thought "Hey, it's rap..just turn up the bass and it'll be ok"

That SSL mix needs a lot of work IMO :)

[Jay Kahrs]

Rough one.

The SSL mix IS pretty lame. The mix AE wasn't up to par or maybe wasn't familar with the genre or something, I don't know. Given how much 'better' the rough mix is, were ya'll offering input to the guy who was driving the SSL?

Was he listening or slaggin' off?

I don't really listen to a lotta music in this genre so I can't offer much in the way of advice other then get someone who's really good at the style & have them mix it. I listen to some old school hip-hop, like Cypress hill & Public Enemy & this is a whole other thing.

Sounds like 'yer already throwing a bunch of cash at this project...once that money hose goes on it's pretty tough to turn off...

Good luck!

[filterayok]

wow, is that some euro pop or WHAT!!! lol ---n e way, here's the deal, its very simple----the ssl mix has a better vocal, and that is key... i dont know if its from tuning, nudging or what, but once the vocal is in place, the rest of the track should be NO PROBLEM----just tell the guy not to pan the main synth all the way over to the atlantic ocean... and the string line should probably be left in the middle too---for some reason mix engineers think they gotta ****in pan everything... your whole track is basically two sounds, so thats the meat of it, keep it clear and in the middle, and with the good vocal, your track is DONE... also, the main synth part was put down as a sweeping effect, so why he would thin it out so much is beyond me, it loses the point of the sweep... sometimes its hard to accept how little you need to do, but in this case just get that vocal right and blend dude...

[djui5]

Originally Posted by filterayok

the ssl mix has a better vocal, and that is key... i dont know if its from tuning, nudging or what, but once the vocal is in place, the rest of the track should be NO PROBLEM

Yeah, the vocal sounded better, but it takes a lot more than a good vocal sound to make a good mix. The SSL mix was weak and boring sounding. He had a lot of room to play with fx and such, but did nothing that I can hear. Not to mention it's muddy because the bass is way too loud. This is a very bad representation of an SSL mix, and shows that even with a nice console, you can still f*k up a good song.

It's much more than just a good vocal sound.....

[seaneldon]

maybe the song isn't that good. mixing becomes totally unimportant if the song sucks. just another thing to think about.

not really overly-talented singers, either. certainly doesn't help.

[butterfly]

hi guys thanks for your replys,at least everyones in agreement ;the mix stinks.we would hope the song itself holds up and we have an amount of faith in it,it seems that the track has benefited very little from the amount of effort and equipment we have utilised.the mix does seem stagnant and doesn't have any"vibe",which we felt was present in prevoius mixes to some extent.yes the vocal was "improved " during the ssl mix , but we feel it is very bland and we were wondering if anyone has specific ideas on how to make it more interesting sounding ,from an effects point of view.also we feel the mix as a whole should "move" and step through the gears as the song progresses to give a feeling of excitement,but again this is sadly lacking.so if any of you have any opinions or advice on this it would be very valuable,once again thank you for taking the time to reply to this,when u spend so much time on somethig you can lose sight of the the big picture and it really helps to have the opinion of people that know what your talking about.

[butterfly]

come on guys someone must have some ideas?

[LikeArethaSings]

Hey i listened to the track.
IMHO I think that your main problem is that you are mixing an unfinished song and production.
I think that if you have the skills and experience you can sometimes turn things around however if it were me i would go back to the root of the music which is the songs first then production then mix.

If you want it to turn out good you have to be honest about all elements.

Get a solid producer to sort it out IMHO.With a song like that a good producer could end up doing most of the mix for you.

Best Aretha

[djui5]

Originally Posted by butterfly

come on guys someone must have some ideas?

Yeah, find a new mix engineer to mix the song. There are a million things that can be done to make it better.

[Musiclab]

Besides the mix it sounds to me like you still have issues with the time. I also think you need to do more with the production

[roxxon]

I think the "song" is very weak, as it is.
The SSL mix isn't too great either.
Better production, arrangment and over-all execution would have helped a lot.
I'll shut up now.

[butterfly]

some interesting comments, roxon, could you expand what aspect of production is a problem for you? beats, melodies, sounds? also "like aretha sings" could you be more specific about about problems you hear with the song? Anybody want to comment on production it would be helpful?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by butterfly

...singers were not on the money and we had to spend hours moving vocals and drums about...

SOMETHING utterly basic had to be wrong from the beginning. Any 5 year old ought to be able to sing effortlessly with a decent backing track. I'd just chalk the whole thing up to experience and recut the song. If the people working on it are having a hard time getting into it, it's a sure sign the public is going to have the very same problem.

[butterfly]

Cheers for the reply Bob, have you listened to the track in your opinion do the vocals need to be re-recorded, don't know if you are just saying that in response to the fact that the vox had to be moved around or you think they are still not working? As i said we are going to remix it but were planning to redo the string part with a different patch as it's not really staccato enough but I think the synth parts are by and large ok although they don't really come over in the mix. The vocal....i just don't know we did the best with what we had.. which was less than perfect...we have had a couple of comments about the vocals which suggest we might look for different singers..don't know really...my feeling is that the nature of the track is it's a sort of poppy club track with a "playground chant" of hook. it doesn't need mariah carey. It does however need the vox to be vibey and in time. This i don't know if we have achieved there are still one or two areas where the vocal is not quite on the money. The thing was.. it was quite a tricky beat to phrase over and required a lot of push and pull which was kind of beyond the singers, who were more used to being on the beat all the time

[roxxon]

I think that the annoying robotic groove and lack of a strong vocal melody makes the song either a re-do or scrap-heap job.
I completely agree with Bob.

As I said before, good execution, arrangement and production values are required to make any musical idea a good song.
The whole groove-vibe of the song you are trying to mix is missing, in my opinion.

I do think if you re-did the song and improved musical execution, arrangement and production values...
You might be able to salvage some good musical ideas from your current, very rough demo idea.

But then again, it would probably take on a life of a much diifferent and better song.
In other words, there are so many things that need improvement on the
"song-idea" that you posted on this thread...
It's hard to imagine that any mix alone could save it.
Sorry man, but I would either scrap it or re-do it with major modifications.

The vocals are nowhere near being on the money and the groove isn't a "money" groove in the first place...The vocal tracks sound very choppy, they don't flow within a groove, or whatever you want to call it.
You really have a combination of things working against you on this
song-idea, as it is.
Good luck, in trying to fix them with just an improved mix, alone.

Though re-doing the vocal alone, could make the track sound far better...
I'm not sure that is the final answer or solution to your dilema.
Re-read Bob's post.
That says it all in a nutshell.

Quote:
"If the people working on it are having a hard time getting into it, it's a sure sign the public is going to have the very same problem."
-Bob Olhsson


Cheers,
Roxxon

[easysqueeze]

Are these folks responding as Engineers or as musicians or what.... ?? when you analyze a song, you have to add subjective and objective attributes together to have a reliable advice or judgment. You need to be familiar with the HipHop and RnB music to understand the subjective attributes as to if the masses will be filling the groove as opposed to the Objective factors such as volume level and panning etc

The song as a whole is not bad. It generally sounds ok, but also sounds unfinished and can be better in the following ways:

1. Have the vocalist take the song home and get a bit more familiar with it so they can come another day and re record with more fluidity. They need to be more fluid with the way they deliver the vox on the beat.

2. The track is fine but a diifferent arrangmet such as taking out certain instruments at certain points in the songs will help

3. The Mix Engr just need to work with balancing all the synth such that he VOX is consistently sitting in the middle. Other tricks as it comes to mind during the MIXing.....


Alternatively,

Export and Send me the Wav file of individual track and I will do the mix. IF you like the end result, you hire me and fire all your engineers.

email me at eardrumzproductions@gmail.com

[butterfly]

Easysqueeze thanks for taking time to listen. We have had the all the files sent to a friend of mine who is a bit of a groove maestro, he has fixed the vox in melodyne and the timing is now a lot better. We have re-examined the parts replaced bass and some other keyboard parts as well as the strings which we have done in VSL and I think it now is ready to be mixed. We are currently mixing another track and have another engineer. However that is not to say we aren't interested....how would u be mixing...in the box or on a desk...not that it matters as a good mix engineer is more important than the tools...also would like to hear some mixes from u...and a rough idea of ur rates...but if u think u can bring something to the table we are interested.

[toolstudio]

Hi,

just found the track and had some time to listen to it.

I'm answering as an SSL mixing engineer and part of a producer team.

While I'm also not crazy about the SSL Mix, I think the problem is somewhere else.
The vocals are o.k. but not good. I think that the editing brought you that far, but my
feeling is that they need at least 20% more better vibe to touch me.
Did the singer catch the vibe and the mood of the song, where she involved longer in that tune. Sounds a bit like she is not on par with the song.

Btw. the song and the hook is pretty catchy, while I listened to it some hours ago, they still in my ears, even I'm just in a mixing session. Thats a good sign, I guess.

The biggest problem what I hear is the groove. I like songs with a pretty simple build.
I'm fine with drums/bass/one synth. But that few tracks must be perfect and touchy.

Also the complete arrangement I think takes too much time to built up. For an album track o.k. but for a single it should come to the point faster.

Again, I really like that tune but just a few changes and than get it mixed and you/ and the mixing engineer will find that the track falls in the right direction.

Just my opinion....

wolfgang

[butterfly]

Wolfgang, many thanks for your post. Yes I agree the hook is catchy, I also agree that the vocals are lacking a bit in " vibe" it is two singers one on first verse and third and another on second. I did my best in the studio to hype them up and get a performance out of them but you know how it is"...yes....yes that,s getting there.." and when you listen back u think well it's only better than it was. I think they will perform it ok, plus they are both young and hot looking with "attitude" but a little passive in the studio. As said I think the vocals now sound at least "tight" with the further editing we have done.....so what kind of stuff do you normally mix yourself...hip hop, pop, rock..?

[toolstudio]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Wolfgang, many thanks for your post. Yes I agree the hook is catchy, I also agree that the vocals are lacking a bit in " vibe" it is two singers one on first verse and third and another on second. I did my best in the studio to hype them up and get a performance out of them but you know how it is"...yes....yes that,s getting there.." and when you listen back u think well it's only better than it was. I think they will perform it ok, plus they are both young and hot looking with "attitude" but a little passive in the studio. As said I think the vocals now sound at least "tight" with the further editing we have done.....so what kind of stuff do you normally mix yourself...hip hop, pop, rock..?

PM sent

[butterfly]

pm replied to.

[5down1up]

doesnt sound that bad ... does it ?

just a lil lifeless and lush ... sounds to me like the beat needs to dominate the song way more. otherwise it will end up sounding like you just putted the vocals on top of the playback. the singers could need some more agressive treatment ... the way they sound is like lalalala ( be glad you never heard me sing ! )

the whole programming could be a lil more " hollywood ".
sounds like a cool idea but the workout is kinda basic .
some folks dig minimal, so its hard to say if thats on purpose or not ?
some addlips wouldnt hurt either, sometimes theres a lot of gaps between the lyrics and nothings happening.

more DRAMA for me please,

but this is for the younger people,
so its prolly enough drama for them alrdy ?


good luck

[butterfly]

5down1up thanks for the input. Yeah I know they do sound a bit unexciting and that's them through a distressor and a fairlight each! I just don't think i can go through the headache or expense of recording them again. I absolutely agree that the beat should be more dominant the engineer managed to convince us or wore us down that the main synth part should be low in the mix. however that is not how we concieved it. It was just such a marathon recording and editing task that we would have probably agreed to anything...I won't go into all the problems encountered but will just say they were considerable. However if we can get a mix we are happy with and get some interest from a label or something we can maybe re-record the vox.

best wishes,
Mark.

[5down1up]

if u did spend that much time i wouldnt STOP yet

good luck

[butterfly]

cheers 5down1up. We aren't about to. when we do get a mix wil post it.

[guerillamixer]

IMHO, in this track the vocalist(s) doesn't give the right vibe, and that is the dealbreaker..

"you think you're all that" as an opening line HAS to be sung with attitude, not passive. Sure the vocalists may look hot, but they don't SOUND hot. It feels like they are still learning the melody and haven't got it down to the point where the they can put a vibe through.

I can't imagine a remix changing the vox vibe, but if you really can't recut the main vox, at least get the opening hook pumping---the last time through the hook has more doubling/bvs..maybe grab some of them and layer them at the start....either that or disguise the vox with some extreme processing for the hook, - grunge it up/vocoder/ring-mod/phasing to match the squelchy synth hook that the track starts with..

Good luck!

[5down1up]

" I can't imagine a remix changing the vox vibe "

filters, vocoders, distortion, delays ...

cheat a lil ! hire some kick ass singers for some background stuff and add some

D Y N A M I T E

for every problem theres a solution

[powercord]

onlything you could do to this track to make it semi better would be put the whole thing through really nasty distortion so no one will hear how bad it is.