ArcCirDude's mix - the ME said it was junk

[lucey]

See what you think about this 16 bit AIFF mix

[ArcCirDude]

The recording was done in a relatively small wooden church. 15 songs in 2 days. Here is the recording chain:
Bass and Tenors: AT4050's
Alto's and Soprano's: Neumann TLM 103's
Guitar: AT4047
Upright: AKG 414ULS
Overheads: Neumann KM184's
Bass drum: AKG D-112
Vocal: Guess and win!
Ambient: Earthworks QTC1's

Preamps: 2x True Systems Precision 8
Converters: MOTU 896HD clocked to a Apogee Big Ben@88.2
Cables: Monster 500 series. 20ft or shorter

This was the second take. I played the piano part in at my studio using Boesendorfer290 samples.

The vocal reverb is Putnam's echo chamber from the late, great Cello studios via the Altiverb plugin.
I added extra reverb on the choir at the request of the producer. This was the Wooden Church sample from Altiverb. The Swedish church sample was of similar size and construction of the church where the recording took place.

Mixing was done in Logic. Monitors are Blue Sky System 5.1. Summing was done OTB through a TLAudio M3 TubeTracker-Manley Massive Passive (slight lift, med wide Q at 100hz, 390hz, 2khz and 12kz -TubeTech SMC2B multiband compressor (max 1.5db compression in the mids at ratio of 1.5, even less on lows and highs. Crossover at 150hz and 4khz).
Post sum mix recorded back into Logic via MOTU HD192 @ 88.2, clocked by Big Ben.
Final mix dithered and downsampled in WaveBurner using POW-r #3 noise shaping.

Mix was declared unprofessional. Recording (raw files) unusable by new mixer/mastering engineer. Choir demands money refunded. All musicians on track think otherwise.

[Dr. Doof]

You provided them with a beautiful Rolls Royce...they just don't know how to drive.

That's my opinion.

Dr.

[ArcCirDude]

The places where her words drop out are when the choir comes in with the same text. She backed off the mic at those points. The producer/arranger wanted it that way.

[steins]

I´m listening on a Mac Powerbook with Koss Headphones. Listened to the recording just once.

If anyone is to blame, it should be the producer or the choir members. In my ears, the choir could use a little bit more practice, they are not what you would call "tight". Listen to the onset of the vocals. Maybe you can mask it with creative use of compression, fades etc. Anyway, the producer should have spotted that. Or maybe they were going for sloppyness, what do I know.

There is a weird cut at the end of the song where the background ambient noise dissapear. And the left/right cymbals sound the same to me, did the drummer use two rides???

Regarding the vocal "mystery mike"; I think it´s rather trebly, but it suits the song. My guess: Røde (NT-series), Neumann M149, or maybe even a cheap china clone or a Shure SM57/58. Give us the secret!

Just one more thing; I had a little trouble getting all the words, even tough I understand Norwegian. Maybe some compression or fader rides? Just minor things, easy to fix. Can´t understand why they want their money back.

Stein Tore

[ArcCirDude]

Hey Stein,

Good ears. Thanks for the tip on understanding the text. I had the text from the get go, so I was familiar with them. If they change their mind, I'll fix it. Same with the siblence.

Yes, they are very amateur and often have intonation/timing problems.

Close on the mic! But I'm going to wait for more guesses!

[ramjet]

hi

are you aable to post a mp3 at say 360Kpbs if you are worried about quality. it is i would like to listen but cant listen to aiff files.


cheers

[ArcCirDude]

Originally Posted by ramjet

hi

are you aable to post a mp3 at say 360Kpbs if you are worried about quality. it is i would like to listen but cant listen to aiff files.


cheers

Sure, no problem. But I need to wait until tomorrow. I'm at home, now.

[Rodney Gene]

It's a beautiful song...

IMHO...all the elements are there..the playing, the sounds and the capture...
It sounds good...it sounds totally usable and masterable.

Though I can honestly see why they would want a re-mix. The drums sound added on or just perhaps too loud...? The vocals do dissapear at 2:40, but not in a natural way. The whole mix has some mid bite to it...

It's a georgous piece...I just can;t but wonder what the choir had in mind. It doesn't sound quite 'live' nor quite 'studio'...it is caught somewhere in the middle.

The producer really needs to step in or be present with you at the remix.

Nice work bro,

Respect,

[kats]

Nothings perfect...but unusable????? Who said that? It's more af a testament to their ability (lack of) than yours

Myself I found the vocal mic a bit bright/strident.....big deal, not difficult to fix (actually it sounds exactly like a vocal track I had to eq last week that had used a U87ai) Was no biggie. I eq'd (a bit heavy) it sounded great.

I'd say stop second guessing yourself, and I hope you got good cash for this pain in the ass their giving you. A big favor though....

I'm dying to hear what the new version the "other guy" is going to do sounds like. If you can eventually get a hold of it - get it to us

I have a feeling about it....I don't like people who can't stand on their own accomplishments, but rather cut others down to get business.

[ArcCirDude]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

It's a beautiful song...

IMHO...all the elements are there..the playing, the sounds and the capture...
It sounds good...it sounds totally usable and masterable.

Though I can honestly see why they would want a re-mix. The drums sound added on or just perhaps too loud...? The vocals do dissapear at 2:40, but not in a natural way. The whole mix has some mid bite to it...

It's a georgous piece...I just can;t but wonder what the choir had in mind. It doesn't sound quite 'live' nor quite 'studio'...it is caught somewhere in the middle.

The producer really needs to step in or be present with you at the remix.

Nice work bro,

Respect,

Agree with all points. The mixing of all 15 tunes was done in two days with no opportunity to sit on them for a few days. The ME pressured me on the mix because he was leaving for Brazil and had only a few days to master (The guy is an in-demand piano player). Then he suddenly has enough time to remix AND master. ???? Wouldn't it have been more professional to recommend another ME so that the producer and I could have used more time on the mix?

The "is it a studio project, or a live project" is right on. He had a professional band that he wanted close mic'd together with the choir in an arc around the band. I really struggled with isolation. I suggested the choir be placed on risers, in rows behind the band but was vetoed. "The choir can't hear themselves that way." ???

The sibilence in the vocals, the drums being a bit loud and the odd live/studio thing were all things I heard upon listening again after a few days after I was pulled from the job. Wouldn't it have been more productive if the ME had faxed me a list of suggestions instead of telling the producer that he could do it better? Or perhaps make the hour trip to my studio and work with me on the corrections in order to save time? That's what I suggested but to no avail. And then to have them send letters to all involved saying that my recording was so bad that there will be no CD. Like I've stated before, I've NEVER run into something like this in my 15 years of recording. Lot's 'o whacky things, but not of this nature.

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by ArcCirDude

Agree with all points. The mixing of all 15 tunes was done in two days with no opportunity to sit on them for a few days. The ME pressured me on the mix because he was leaving for Brazil and had only a few days to master. Then he suddenly has enough time to remix AND master. ????

The "is it a studio project, or a live project" is right on. He had a professional band that he wanted close mic'd together with the choir in an arc around the band. I really struggled with isolation. I suggested the choir be placed on risers, in rows behind the band but was vetoed. "The choir can't hear themselves that way." ???

The sibilence in the vocals, the drums being a bit loud and the odd live/studio thing were all things I heard upon listening again after a few days after I was pulled from the job. Wouldn't it have been more productive if the ME had faxed me a list of suggestions instead of telling the producer that he could do it better? Or perhaps make the hour trip to my studio and work with me on the corrections in order to save time? That's what I suggested but to no avail. And then to have them send letters to all involved saying that my recording was so bad that there will be no CD. Like I've stated before, I've NEVER run into something like this in my 15 years of recording. Lot's 'o whack things, but not of this nature.

A simple communication with you is the very least that you deserved...
I am sorry that this happened...

It does indeed seem like someone is attempting to be deceptive and dishonest...just to make a couple of bucks. What a complete waste of everyones's time.

If there is one single thing that I loathe or disrespect is dishonesty or people who steal from you...I understand it, I can forgive it but it burns down bridges really fast...

Keep your head right bro...the best always come from experiences like this...!!

Respect,

[borau]

Wow, The nerve of that "ME"!!

Listened to the track, and apart from the sibliant lead vocals(M149?), which could have been fixed in mastering just fine! You did an exquisite job on an location recording, getting amateur singers to sound good!

What he has done is not only grossly unprofessional, but he also KNOWS it's uncorrect, and therefore is borderline criminal.

I really feel for you, man. Those kind of projects, where you probably worked your ass off for not a whole lot of money, and even less gratitude. With amateurish owerblown egos adding to it.

You need to get written statements from other sound engineers and slam him in the head with it. He will give up! He will let it go. He will understand that it is his reputation that is on the line in the long run, not yours.

Judging from Sound Quality vs. performance of the audio file this is such an obvious case....

BUT, do not take legal actions on this!
That will burn bridges faster than ***

[nek]

Sounds good, but the choir needs practice more; I can't understand a word they're saying.


Seriously, other then the vocals being a little high in the mix for my taste and, of course, the sibilence in the vocals, it's an excellent recording IMHO.

It is very sad that this ME is acting this way.

[ArcCirDude]

Here is a scrunched up version:

Båten MP3.mp3

[Kris]

Sounds very nice... a half assed 'mastering engineer' could have fixed the sibilance prob...

Things quite often get shady when 'God' is involved...

[YZ!]

Originally Posted by ArcCirDude

The ME pressured me on the mix because he was leaving for Brazil

Hmmm... this is the second Norwegian ME that I see travelling to Brazil in less than a year... I would like to know his name and the studio name too.

About the mix, listened here at home thru Sennheiser HD212Pro headphones:

Nice! the lead vox is pulling back into the choir at a couple of spots but this sounds deliberate; the lead vox has quite a bit of lip smacks but this does not seem to be what the people are complaining about (or could it be?). I tried to listen to it "casually" ie, without a magnifying glass for minor detail since I believe that the complaints are not about very subtle things or the "producer" would have gone mad with the artistic imperfections way before noticing anyhing technical about your work.

How many choir members?

[ArcCirDude]

Originally Posted by YZ!

Hmmm... this is the second Norwegian ME that I see travelling to Brazil in less than a year... I would like to know his name and the studio name too.

About the mix, listened here at home thru Sennheiser HD212Pro headphones:

Nice! the lead vox is pulling back into the choir at a couple of spots but this sounds deliberate; the lead vox has quite a bit of lip smacks but this does not seem to be what the people are complaining about (or could it be?). I tried to listen to it "casually" ie, without a magnifying glass for minor detail since I believe that the complaints are not about very subtle things or the "producer" would have gone mad with the artistic imperfections way before noticing anyhing technical about your work.

How many choir members?

About 25 members in the choir. Check your PM's and I'll tell you the guy's name. I don't want to blast it out there into virtual space. Then I'd be just as bad as they are....

[pkautzsch]

Really sounds good.
Soloist I suspect a Schoeps, that's what the lips sound like...(but maybe due to the fact that being into classics I don't know any LD tube mics)

What I suspect the choir guys don't like is that it really sounds like a choir. And none of the singers can hear himself clearly, but it all melts to a round and great choir sound. This of course is good - but try to imagine singing in that choir, hearing yourself as loud as you hear all the others, and not hearing yourself that much louder on the recording.
On the other hand, I could imagine narrowing the drums a bit...but this is not about being a good mix, but rather personal aesthetics.
I'd really be interested in what the raw files sound like. They can't be bad. Just maybe not the way the ME records (but why does this track need ANY mastering...except the tech stuff like PQ codes)

[kats]

Ok ArcCricDude - all of here have spent money for tissue paper on your behalf

Name the vocal mic

[Jules]

AKG 414?

[ramjet]

hi

i think it sounds great. dunno what the guy is talking about. congrates on a job well done and as for the ME, the truth will prevail. don't get to caught up about it.

good luck and cheers

[ArcCirDude]

OK, the mic.

On the way out of the studio I grabbed an extra mic just in case. Turned out that it was a good move as the producer gave me an incomplete list over the participants. There was an electric guitar and a flute, as well (although not on this cut). On an earlier cut, I threw up the extra mic just for kicks, a mic a bought on a whim because it was so inexpensive that hey, what the hell. (I actually bought two as I always buy mics in pairs, matched when possible.) A Studio Projects C3. Stein was right. A cheap Chinese mic. The high end lift on it did accentuate the sibilence a bit, but this was true of other recordings I have made with her using both a Røde Classic II and a Blue Kiwi. I was pretty impressed. It stayed. My next choice on her voice from the mics I had on hand would have been an AT4050.

Thanks for the feedback! Funny how something like this can make one question ones abilities after 15 years as an engineer (Yes I can say that, trained/slaved in a real studio and THEN got my Masters) and 25 years as a professional musician. I'll let you know how all this turns out. I should be receiving a response to my letter(s) from the choir/producer/ME gang soon.