DrumKit from Hell Superior/Vdrums..."funky as hell"

[captain54]

Played in real time....Vdrums/DfHS

Logic 7 pro, Psp vintage warmer...

guitars from my Apple Loop collection....

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/leekannemusic.htm

[captain54]

Thanks for the listen and kind words....

the program (along with 40GB sample library) loads to the computer, then opens within the host, (Logic, cubase, ptools, etc.).....

you construct a kit of your choice within the program itself and any type of microphone bleed setup you wish, (or what your computer can handle)...

play away from the Vdrums..

records the midi into your sequencer, which triggers the samples....

finally, bounce the performance out of the program to wav or aiff, where you get separated kick, snare, toms, hats, overheads and room mics....

load those back into the sequencer and mix as you would a normal drum kit....

[toolskid]

I have to say, I think this sounds almost nothing like a real kit.. sorry I just dont get it at all...

[Wireneck]

Just Curious if you used real cymbals with your V-kit? Something about the decay on the hi-hat/crashes just doesn't sound all that natural to me. This doesn't sound bad at all but i've heard DKFH used in more convincing ways than this. Honestly I think this is the first time i've heard it used out of the context of metal.
Cool funky stuff either way.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by toolskid

I have to say, I think this sounds almost nothing like a real kit.. sorry I just dont get it at all...

we don't all have access to state of the art facilities and gear to record drums so some of us have to find reasonable drum alternatives that work in a mix....

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Wireneck

Just Curious if you used real cymbals with your V-kit? Something about the decay on the hi-hat/crashes just doesn't sound all that natural to me. This doesn't sound bad at all but i've heard DKFH used in more convincing ways than this. Honestly I think this is the first time i've heard it used out of the context of metal.
Cool funky stuff either way.

that's been my big complaint with DFHS....it's very "metalish"

I'm looking forward to the new "Vintage and Custom" collection....seems to be the answer to those non - metal drummers.....

[Wireneck]

that's been my big complaint with DFHS....it's very "metalish"

Considering that most of the development/sounds were done with the help of Meshuggah's drummer I suppose the "metal" comes with the territory. The new ones should be interesting to hear though.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by captain54

we don't all have access to state of the art facilities and gear to record drums so some of us have to find reasonable drum alternatives that work in a mix....

I've battled with this forever man, and I perfectly undertand your position. I live in a country where there are no "session drummers". So I worked around drum samples forever, But... I reached the conclusion it's better to record a real drummer in your bedroom and sound replace the hell out of him , and edit him on PT rather than going the "sample only" way. If acoustic drums is what you want, save your time and money, and keep searching for a real drummer you can afford to record, with whatever equipment. Just a thought, from someone that thought like you for to long.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

I've battled with this forever man, and I perfectly undertand your position. I live in a country where there are no "session drummers". So I worked around drum samples forever, But... I reached the conclusion it's better to record a real drummer in your bedroom and sound replace the hell out of him , and edit him on PT rather than going the "sample only" way. If acoustic drums is what you want, save your time and money, and keep searching for a real drummer you can afford to record, with whatever equipment. Just a thought, from someone that thought like you for to long.

I am a "real drummer" and I have a nice (newer) Gretsch kit, with some decent mics, but not a lot of great front end gear and a shitty room....

I've gotten some decent acoustic recordings, but they all had to be doctored to hell to the point where they didn't even sound real (software ambience)....so I figured, what the hell. I'll look into this DFHS thing, since I already have a decent Mac, decent software, and Vdrums...

Believe me I've debated this back and forth a million times....and for every person that says the sampled drums sound killer, there is another that says they suck...

[toolskid]

dude! - I've done a world of live drums stuff in my bedroom with about 2 mics into a 001. Even using a 58 as an overhead... comon. The clip you posted doesnt feel like drums. Try the real deal on the same track with wat ever you got and see if you get a better result. All the best

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by captain54

Believe me I've debated this back and forth a million times....and for every person that says the sampled drums sound killer, there is another that says they suck...

They may sound killer and THEY DO. But they don't feel natural. Anyway, it's about the songs I guess... if you have a great song it will work with whatever.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by toolskid

dude! - I've done a world of live drums stuff in my bedroom with about 2 mics into a 001. Even using a 58 as an overhead...

I have too...same setup....but with an Mbox

would you have submitted your bedroom drums for professional release??

my point is, there may be a place for virtual drums...I'm just not sure what it is yet...
the drums from my clip don't sound real because the entire clip, midi and audio, was assembled on a grid to a click....the groove itself is lacking in human feel...I'm not that accomplished of a midi manipulator to get midi to sound human....

I find DFHS very easy to work with for getting down quick ideas and demos....you don't have to f**k with mics, levels, tuning, etc....you have an idea for a groove, you turn on the computer and a click, sit down at the V's and go....

I see producers who put together radio and TV spots, electronica composers, etc.....being able to use DFHS, BFD, etc,. all day long.....

but for real live human interaction and feel, .I would agree with all that's been said so far...they fall far short....

[toolskid]

I have too...same setup....but with an Mbox

would you have submitted your bedroom drums for professional release??

errr dude - thats exactly what I did.....

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by RobertPhilbeck

So you did a professional release with tracks you did in your bedroom? Oh yeah, we should be taking your word for what's good and what's not.

sorry I got no idea what your problem is.... must be the language barrier....

[toolskid]

about as arrogant as yours I reckon . But a fair point nonetheless...

I suppose my main grumble is that each part of the kit sounds totally separate from the other, theres no interplay going on. There also seems to be an alarming regularity in the recurrance of the same sample. Dynamically it also lacks conviction, I'm not feeling the changes in intensity are consistent with actual live performed drums. Theres a strange separation in the decays of each drum too, its really weird. I dont feel like theres any sense of depth to the kit, it seems really 2d.

Nitpicking it may be,and maybe there are more factors I havent gone into, but all together this makes my skin crawl, it feels so limited and really detracts from what would have been a nice performance.

I would really be interested to hear the same track with you recording your gretsch with whatever you have.

[captain54]

"bedroom" acoustic drums.....Mbox powered....

not the same track, somewhat similiar

listen to "Scultpure"

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/leekannemusic.htm

[captain54]

Originally Posted by dim light

I agree with everything toolskid said!

Scultpure sounds nice... The drums are 100% better then the other midi ones. They sound dead in a bad way.

Cool song!

I appreciate everyone who has contributed an opinion on my tracks....

It's hard for me to form an objective opinion....I see pros and cons to both...

the biggest con to DFHS is that it is more geared to "slammin" types of rock and metal and it's hard to be subtle with it....

I'm considering waiting until the new version of DFHS comes out (Custom and Vintage) drums before passing judgement....

[macle]

I've battled this conundrum a lot...

I listened to the first clip thinking it was the Vdrum deal, and thought, hmmm, wow, that sounds pretty real, that could be workable....turns out i was listening to the real drums!

After realizing that, went back and listened to the Vdrum clip... hmmm, that's the kind of sound I was expecting, even if it's louder or punchier or whatever, just doesn't seem as good to me.

[macle]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

But... I reached the conclusion it's better to record a real drummer in your bedroom and sound replace the hell out of him , and edit him on PT rather than going the "sample only" way.

If you sound replace the drums, don't you again end up with that "sampled midi" sound? That's what happens when i try to replace the sounds...maybe it's the samples I've tried, though I've searched high and low, but they always sound like samples to me, always fake, too good or clean or whatever it is that makes them sound sterile and blah and not right, so i always end up using my own drums, even if technically they aren't that great, but it just seems better (to me) than anything fake.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by macle

If you sound replace the drums, don't you again end up with that "sampled midi" sound? That's what happens when i try to replace the sounds...maybe it's the samples I've tried, though I've searched high and low, but they always sound like samples to me, always fake, too good or clean or whatever it is that makes them sound sterile and blah and not right, so i always end up using my own drums, even if technically they aren't that great, but it just seems better (to me) than anything fake.

In my point of view it's the "overheads" that make the real drum sound. Thats the problem with sampled programmed drums. You get everything sounding very real, but they don't sound like 1 instrument. Everything sounds great but seperate. So manipulating the snare or kick with samples, you can still keep the same overheady sound.

We did place two mics on the studio monitors while the programmed beat was playing, and recorded that as being overheads. It improved things alot, yet.. never like a player playing.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

In my point of view it's the "overheads" that make the real drum sound.

With DFHS, your rendered files from midi include both OH's and ambient mic

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by captain54

With DFHS, your rendered files from midi include both OH's and ambient mic

But they are still seperate samples right ? I have the Bob Clearmountain 2 CD, I use it.. or well, used to use it with my mpc. Every sample came with different settings, velocity etc.. No Overheads though.

Do you mean that once you have the loop going with all the samples, it emulates you a pair of overheads on the WHOLE MIX? Or you individually mix in the separate overhead samples ??. Because if that was the case, I don't think there would be much difference, because real overheads capture the tails and the attacks of everything, wich blends you a sensation of one instrument. Do you understand what I'm trying to say ?

And don't forget the billions of time and velocity "errors" in the human feel. I'm sure you could program some of those, but never to the real extent.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Do you understand what I'm trying to say ?

.

no. not really

It's a 40GB library, dude.....every nuance of a recorded drum performance is captured in that sample set, including close miced drums, entire kit captured through OH's and entire kit captured through ambient mics.....

to date, its the closest I've heard to an actual live performance.....the trick is, getting your midi vdrum kit to translate it.

[ms70]

why don't you go to the DFH site and have a listen to the demos? I think they're telling more about the sound of DFH than the example captain54 has posted
http://www.toontrack.com/demos.shtml

[Jose Mrochek]

I went to the page and heard some demos... what can I say, they sound amazing. These drums would surely work , and not really take away much from the context of any song.. but they are still far from the real thing. But it's workable, no doubt about it.