Advice on this Mix

[GRiFF]

Hi Guys,

I'd appreciate any feedback you can give me on this mix.

If I can add here that I'm not asking for an opinion on the track itself, its not my material, and not at all my choice stylistically.
However, right now it serves as a good example of some difficulties I think I have with my mixes.

Some Background...
Its a pop song, and I heared it as needing a DIDOesq kind of mix, so; sensual, reverby, deep, enticing were ways to describe what I wanted.
I was finding it difficult to get the mix to have any depth or to lose the hard/harsh edge without losing some necessary upfrontness, I still feel that I just want to plaster the track in reverb, however, doing this added clatter and chang, really not that sensual at all in my view.

Advice from Gearslutz posse has been to cut down on the HFs & LFs to push sounds to the back, and use reverbs with little or no reflections.
Having done this, this is the mix I came up with.
I used quite extreme HF cuts, often removing down to 8k - 6k on instruments that I thought were getting in the way. Only the lead vocal and acoustic have 16k boosted.
The kick drum remains heavy sounding to me, but I've just not been happy with my EQ choices for altering it. When I cut, I end up with a non-existence beat. I guess I'm looking for a texture.

Other useful info here...written, programmed and recorded over about 3 days, using PC running NUENDO, mostly ITB plugs. Additional acoustics, guitars, basses played by me.
Its a demo really, I'm sure you'll agree, but what can I do to step up my game and stop making demos? How can I make this mix more sensual?

[Boby Stoica]

Hi.
Right now I'm working on something verry similar.

At a first glance, I think you can tweak more on the arrangement rather than the mix . Here are some sugestions, based on my personal experience - so, you could like them or not..:

1. Try to get more depth from the el.piano, playing it in another way - Orbit-loke, less notes, with a delay beating dotted 8th.
2. To get more on the chorus, try playing less on the ac. guitar on the verses - At least on the first verse- not chords, maybe some notes in a rithmic formula - Madonna, Atomic Kitten like.
So, you can suplement harmony by putting on some "floods" from something like V-station - flood= a pad withh less definition and attack and more overtones on the oscilators.
3. You can try plaing the ell. guitar on longer chords rather than the accomp. style you were plaing on the choruses. Something with a tremolo or so.. Adds depth.

4. DIDO' productions use a slightly different rhytmic solution - bass+beat - longer bass notes , getting grrove from guitars or strings, so,

5. You could add strings - on the intro, chorus and second verse. On intro and second verse, make them play something like a simple theme - Edirol VSTi is good enough.

6. As for mixing, a filtered delay on vocals, so you can hear only a"telephone" like delay, always helps to add depth - on the chorus, anyway. The filtered (bandpass or just the REQ2bands after the delay..) will help to get it heard on the mix at a low volume, so you can keep the mix uncluttered. You can also automa te the delay returns so the listener could hear the delay only on the words that sounds best( and repeating a fair amount of time, between words..)

Hope this will help - it's just my opinion , anyway - more like a porducer's opinion.

[GRiFF]

Lots of good advice there Boby, many thanks :)

[thethrillfactor]

Hi Griff,

Won't comment on production or song.

On the mix i think you have to build your mix to the song.

Its a pop song and i don't really hear it as a Dido thing.

More of a boy band/pop thing.

I think going in the other direction would take you into the area of remixing/production which i doubt you are being compensated for and i ma not sure it will make the client thrilled(unless that's what they want which would mean a total rehaul).

If you go for the pop sound, go big.

I think its too narrow right now.

The guitar on one side and keyboard on the other is not working for me.

Its too distracting and makes the song feel imbalanced.

I think on any mix i commented on here, my advice is always to build it real strong up the middle.

Make it feel strong,centered and steady.

Especially on pop which is a must.

The chorus should be really wide since its what drives the song.

It should open up and explode.

The vocals need some treatment.

The drums is a whole other post.

Again just an opinion.

Good luck.

[NeoVXR]

agreeing the previous postings,

the switch from chorus to verse does not work well.
the chorus does not end, the singer continues, as if it were the same. virtually everything continues.

I don't think the kick drum ist particularly bad, it is quite important the way it is. before changing kick, I would try different snare sounds, more the trashy, punk, grundge, room maximised kind.
as soon as you found something that can answer the kick well, you can adjust the kick a little, to tame the LF. it's not much, it can become a task of the buss comp/limiter also.

the extremely soft voice contradicts the style that most instruments have been played. it would fit the soft, mumbling-water keyboard clouds mentioned above.
you can make the voice harder (see dave pensado and his upfront technique), but not too much is possible from the way it has been sung.
I like the singer. still it is possible to perform the thing somewhat more aggressive.
you could try less compression, or a very long release time on the voice.
try the cheesy 08/15 stereo delay/mult on the chorus vocals, just how it feels. then see what to preserve from the depth.

btw the arrangement and sound has a little country and suzanne vega touch. but the voice sounds male and does not feel at home there.

you said literally "my mixes" so let me try another hint. maybe you need a more intense and realistic projection in your inner ear and soul before you start work. like to sleep over it and then recognize the sound of every instrument (WITH the vocals, emotion and style), even before it has been recorded. this can be very exhausting, to meditate and dream just IT. later on remember and analyze in the same moment. but then things start to happen...

[GRiFF]

@Thrill,

Thankyou, I appreciate what your saying, I've been rethinking this as a pop song rather than DIDOesq - being as trying to insert the sensual thing doesn't happen naturally.

When you talk of building it through the middle - at what point do you start to pan left/right? And what else would you consider bolstering down the middle with?
I'd prefer to limit the amount of instruments (or at least obviously) but beyond kick,bass, snare, hat, guitars, vocal - what else would you be thinking of?

@Neo - yes of course your right re-vision, I think what I find really hard is being so involved in all aspects of the production. Its extremely difficult to be hand holding the client, playing/writing guitar parts, recording and mixing the track, I often don't get much space to approach that side of things, every so often I get a track like this to do and it becomes a real challenge to take much further than I have been able to here.

What I'm thinking is that it might be time to start bringing in other musicians and use dedicated programmers etc to relieve me of some of my duties


Thanks to all for some enthusiastic, thoughtful feedback;)

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by GRiFF
@Thrill,


When you talk of building it through the middle - at what point do you start to pan left/right? And what else would you consider bolstering down the middle with?
I'd prefer to limit the amount of instruments (or at least obviously) but beyond kick,bass, snare, hat, guitars, vocal - what else would you be thinking of?



Thanks to all for some enthusiastic, thoughtful feedback;)

In building it up the middle i mean making it solid,strong and clear.

In most pop songs its what sells the track.

This means making the vocals shine, making the kick and snare be distinct and the bass full.

Other than that everything else is ear candy.

When mixing a pop/rnb track i normally start with the vocals and build the song around it.

After i get the lead and backgrounds right, i start with the rhythm section.

Than i work my way outward.

On this particular mix, the middle is just not pushing the song.

Also i would probably create pseudo stereo interplay with the guitars and keys.

[GRiFF]

Thrill, again thanks man.

The track as I said is at this stage is just a demo - personally I don't really fancy replaying parts and writing new bits, because I'm not being paid to do it.

However, would you say that I could improve what is currently there quite alot?

I thought the vocal sounded good, do you think this version can be improved much more, but without spending days doing it?

When you say pseudo effects - you mean stereo acoustic guitars?
Delays from the Electric piano that kind of thing?

I have mixed results with the copying acoustic guitar idea - usually ends up sounding either flanged or messy.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by GRiFF
Thrill, again thanks man.

The track as I said is at this stage is just a demo - personally I don't really fancy replaying parts and writing new bits, because I'm not being paid to do it.

However, would you say that I could improve what is currently there quite alot?

I thought the vocal sounded good, do you think this version can be improved much more, but without spending days doing it?

When you say pseudo effects - you mean stereo acoustic guitars?
Delays from the Electric piano that kind of thing?

I have mixed results with the copying acoustic guitar idea - usually ends up sounding either flanged or messy.

Sorry didn't know it was a demo(i did think it sounded a little raw, but wasn't sure if you wanted production suggestions).

Yeah i think it can be improved.

Is the artist(or you)trying to sell the artist or the song(or both)?

If its the artist than you got work on your hands because i personally feel the performance is not that strong. But i feel that may also be due to the song which isn't that strong either(again just an opinion).

If its both than put the focus on the artist and the words.

The vocal is just a little uninspired and boring.

What i would do is give him a sound and automate the performance(which goes for the whole track actually).

Accentuate the guitar a little bit more and tuck the keys under.

The rhythm section(witht the exception of the snare) should be more to keep time if anything.

Yeah i meant with delays and pitch shifting(for pseudo).

The idea is to have the guitar fill in the sides(for a little drama) while he is doing the verses(especially when its him ny himself).

This will help give the voice a little body and depth and the words a touch more interest.

When the chorus hits tuck the guitars a little more towards the center(or use tighter delay or total different effect maybe distortion or a rotary speaker) and have the backgrounds take over the sides.

Also experiment with building some emotion and placing a climax(also can be done with automation and master fader).

I am at home on dial up, but later on i can check out the song more thouroughly and be even more specific.

[GRiFF]

Hey Thrill,

The track isn't mine, and your right I don't think the performance is that strong.
My main issue here was to be able to produce a better demo, with one eye on maybe taking it up a level.
I know I could make it work better, but sometimes I think I spend too much time on projects like this.
One day I'll post something I'm more committed too, which has usually had a greater amount of time spent getting the performances, and feel, I'll be just as keen to get your views on this.

Back to this one though,

What treatment would you use on the acoustic in the way you describe?

I guess copy the guitar and pan it off, and then delay the guitar by a 16th, as I said in the last email, I find this often sounds pretty horrid and flangey, not to say that I think this technique is wrong just...why is it when I do it sounds so...bleeeugh?

I have this same problem with lead vocals.

Look forward to your thoughts on this.