Before and After - Peeder's remix

[diatonic]

...

[Todd]

Good song. But neither mix does much for me.

In my opinion, those ultra heavy distorted guitars just dont fit
the scene at all. They stick out like a very sore thumb.

This is a nice adult contemporary tune. Distorted guitars can
work, but not the way they're done here. You have to be much
more clever, split the parts up, lots of layering, etc etc..
They should be smooth, big, spongy, etc..

For instance, Coldplay has tunes with distorted guitar, but you
dont see the guitarist using a MetalZone
pedal and a Mesa Boogie Triple Recitfier.

That's pretty much what you're tune sounds like. Just doesnt gel.
TK

[Todd]

Oh yeah, forgot to say, i cannot tell who's mix is who's.
Neither seems better really. Just different. One is a bit thinner.
TK

[peeder]

So here's what I did with the tracks...

Most of the tracks came out of Kontakt and I asked for the MIDI so I could do some replacement. I used this mix as a means of trying a bunch of new things...on the drums, it was BFD2. This was my first experience with BFD2, or any BFD (I played briefly with the demo version) and so I just flipped through presets until I found one that more or less worked with the song. Then I rerouted it into multiple outs and brought each into its own PTLE aux input. I turned off most of the BFD2 effects (although they are fine) in favor of the Duende...most of this mix is realized on the Duende since I thought it was the appropriate sound. Some of the BFD2 controls were odd...the pan control on the hihat didn't seem to pan it into the stereo output, so I had to make a mono hihat send and pan it in PTLE.

The drum MIDI tracks required a lot of editing, there were odd flams and such as if they had arrived in a layered form, and I tried to do some editing but obviously a lot more could have been done...for instance proper rolls, and of course, getting rid of the robotic quantized groove. But this was a mixing exercise more than an editing one!

The distorted guitars didn't have DI tracks with them and it would be too much work to make DI versions, so I just went with them. Duende, some Massey Tapehead. The lead hook did have a DI and I reamped it through a Fulltone Distortion Pro into a Marshall 2061X into Alnico Blues. I used an MD441 to capture although looking back I would have been better off with a 57 as usual (and prob the AC30)...I was aiming for a thinner sound. A Massey TD5 delay is on that.

The bass had a DI track and I reamped it through an Ampeg SVPCL into a blackface 166 and an LA-2A. It gets a chorus on the bridge. The voice was sent through a Precision Multiband, a Precision Maximizer, a Massey CT4, the Duende EQ, and the Digi Deesser...I was struggling with the voice a bit. It was clipped and the clips were repaired with izotope RX. It also changes tonality quite a bit (bassy in the start and finish, bright in the middle) and I should have automated EQs but I figured it's close enough. There's a dual detuner and an Altiverb on it and a few other things. The backing vox were just done with the Duende and some Massey CT4/Tapehead.

The piano was (but of course!) replaced with Art Vista Virtual Grand. The stereo acoustic was really the only good print in the set of tracks, that's just a Duende on it iirc. It sounds real although it may have been Kontakt too?

The 2-bus used the Duende Bus Compressor in parallel, down about 8db from the bypass. Into a UAD Precision Limiter (I found the Massey L2007 too muddy for this mix).

It is hard to get a whole bunch of fake instruments sounding real and organic, especially when they are on a quantized groove. It's also hard to get separation amongst the parts in a mix of this density with all those distortions etc. and have it translate. I think it came out OK.

I also like diatonic's original mix! It's very warm and full and the drums sound fine and while it is quite muddy and overcompressed it covers up a lot of the details you might not want to hear! But it retains the feel and it rocks.

[diatonic]

...

[Todd]

So, Diatonic sent me the piano midi, Vocals, and a few other tidbits of this tune,
which i replaced with some real guitars, etc...
I did my own thing with the tune, rearranged some parts, changed
the groove, etc.
Using Steven Slate drum samples along with DKFH Custom and Vintage.
Trilogy bass, "White Grand" sampled piano, Taylor acoustic, Fender Telecaster.
This mix isnt what i'd like to be, but its what i could do in the
little spare time ive had to mess with it. Just thought it would
be cool to post a different "Take" on the song, production wise.
Definately make sure you've heard the original before you hear this
version (obviously)
Great tune D!! Thanks for letting me butcher it up!

Just updated the mix, so try (download) it again if you care to. :)
T

[diatonic]

...

[peeder]

Wow great work Todd! That's a complete new production of the song, and using real instruments and a mostly real groove, you got a lot more emotional connect.

[FossilTooth]

Each mix is clearly better than the one before.

I dislike the mechanical, artificial sounding drums on each, but maybe that's just my taste.

Aside from the delay on Todd's vocals (which I think is a bit cheesy, even for this song), his mix (or should I say remix) is the most masterful and "finished" sounding. It seems like he replaced a lot.

Peeder's is a distinct improvement over the first mix though. Congrats, diatonic, for seeking to collaborate with others, instead of doing everything yourself. It's never a good idea.

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by FossilTooth

Each mix is clearly better than the one before.


Peeder's is a distinct improvement over the first mix though. Congrats, diatonic, for seeking to collaborate with others, instead of doing everything yourself. It's never a good idea.

Yeah, I agree. I like the production changes that Todd made. The musical break after the first chorus and before the second verse is much more effective with the acoustic guitar. The heavy hypothetically dropped Bflat tuned (?!) electric guitar in the original was working against the spirit of it all. I think you had a low Bflat in the electric guitar after the chorus diatonic that just was so very much a different genre. It sounds great but not in this song. Just my humble opinion.

Also, after the first chorus, I like how Todd changed the guitar to muted eighth notes instead of the sixteenths diatonic had. The sixteenths were effecting the perceived energy of the chorus.

In the bridge though you introduce the clubby sounding drums. Why not in the musical break before the second verse? I think with the introduction and persistence so late in the song it's like where the hell did that come from.

What do you think?

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Mr. Liszt

Yeah, I agree. I like the production changes that Todd made. The musical break after the first chorus and before the second verse is much more effective with the acoustic guitar. The heavy hypothetically dropped Bflat tuned (?!) electric guitar in the original was working against the spirit of it all. I think you had a low Bflat in the electric guitar after the chorus diatonic that just was so very much a different genre. It sounds great but not in this song. Just my humble opinion.

Also, after the first chorus, I like how Todd changed the guitar to muted eighth notes instead of the sixteenths diatonic had. The sixteenths were effecting the perceived energy of the chorus.

In the bridge though you introduce the clubby sounding drums. Why not in the musical break before the second verse? I think with the introduction and persistence so late in the song it's like where the hell did that come from.

What do you think?

Thats pretty fair to say. It came down to lack of spare time
to do this tune. I tracked acoustic guitars, re-programmed
alot of stuff. Took alot of time. I admit, i didnt make some of
the best decisions, like the breakbeat out of nowhere, and the
cheesy delay on the voice. But i think it was still a cool expirience.
I hope more jump on board with their ideas.
I'll have some time next week, so maybe i'll re'arrange some stuff again,
based on comments here.
Toodles

[butterfly]

Great job on the remix todd, u've really brought the song into focus, cleared out the clutter so we can focus on the song. I like the lyrics Diatonic, kind of representative of the inner struggle of being an artist and it comes across as truthfull and heartfelt but the good thing I think is that (hopefully) Joe public will be able to relate to this in their own way as it's got a kind of universal theme that reflects the human condition. Yip think the songs a go-er.

[diatonic]

...

[Todd]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Great job on the remix todd, u've really brought the song into focus, cleared out the clutter so we can focus on the song. I like the lyrics Diatonic, kind of representative of the inner struggle of being an artist and it comes across as truthfull and heartfelt but the good thing I think is that (hopefully) Joe public will be able to relate to this in their own way as it's got a kind of universal theme that reflects the human condition. Yip think the songs a go-er.

Thank you Butterfly!
I was hoping to get a reaction like that, as opposed to people
picking apart the actual mix, and EQ's , etc etc..

Diatonic wrote a really good song. I heard that same clutter you
mentioned, and wanted to really bring the song forward.
Its so easy these days, with all the arsenal the computers,samples,
plugins, etc, can bring, to get really caught up in superficial parts,
details, and just overthinking,and overdoing things.
Of course we have alot of obsession with just the sonics of a mix,
which we should care about, but it can also get in the way sometimes,
in certain ways.

When you have a geat song, less is more.
Its so easy to lay a track and say, "that sounds cool".
You always have to step back and ask, "does it support the song?"
Does it bring what he's saying more into focus?

Anyhoo, once again D, nice tune. Hope to see you continue writing,
and get some placements!! You really deserve some.
T

[Andraes]

Peeder, first my compliments for the really transparent and relaxed sound you created. Will read how you did that later but after hearing it few hours ago that still stands. (I guess you are an EQ hero.) The song had producing needs (drumtrack was not holding the song together.) but that was not the issue. I listened roughly to Todds version, that was another song.

I like the original mix too, guitars were not in the way. i would have taken the piano away in some parts. Piano whilst singing... less seems more...

[peeder]

See I liked the clutter for my purposes because it made it a more difficult mixing challenge!

Originally Posted by Andraes

Peeder, first my compliments for the really transparent and relaxed sound you created. Will read how you did that later but after hearing it few hours ago that still stands. (I guess you are an EQ hero.) The song had producing needs (drumtrack was not holding the song together.) but that was not the issue. I listened roughly to Todds version, that was another song.

Wow thank you very much, Andraes!

[Audio Hombre]

it would be cool if someone redid the e guitars with something less metal.

[Andraes]

Yup, In Todd's version the drums make sense. I can imagine when remixing a track -especially on own initiative- one does not change the structure, only focus on improving sound. Song doctoring is another job. Often creative sources of that song do not allow it. It's an interesting process.

Edit: Was'nt Welcome to eSession suppose to be for stuff like this. Given this sonic thread here's one vote to share full tracks (on GS) instead of MP3s only!

[diatonic]

...

[gundling]

Diatonic - Good song.. are those your vocals as well? Pretty good!

Todd - Nice Production Work, man. Very commercial with "limited time invested..."

[Todd]

Originally Posted by gundling

Diatonic - Good song.. are those your vocals as well? Pretty good!

Todd - Nice Production Work, man. Very commercial with "limited time invested..."

Thank you Gundling!

[MJ Heck]

Well...

I was hoping my first post would be some brilliant discovery
or revelation so I could begin the karmic payback for all
that I have received here, but this thread is simply too terrific
not to respond.

Diatonic:
I am extremely impressed by the strength of anyone willing
to put something out there and the confidence to see what
comes back. There is nothing harder that starting with a blank page -
I am always astonished at how smart I am when it comes to
someone else's efforts and how much harder everything is with
a blank screen and silence - instant humility. As noted many times,
it all begins with good words and notes, like you have shared with us.
Well done.

Peeder:
I have enjoyed your contributions immensely for the months
I have been reading and learning. Your mix is like a tutorial on
the proper use of reductive EQ. Great job of making room and
picking the heroes of the song.

Todd:
You seem to have it, my friend. Oozing with good taste, then
a fantastic curveball at the bridge -just like it should be.
I love addition of the beats. Just a beautiful overall sonic quality.
Wonderful job.

Most importantly, thank you all for the little reminder of the power
of collaboration that few things can provide like this art form.
There has been a little bit of smallness around of late, but this
is the stuff that just makes me so pleased to be here.

Thanks again, gentlemen.

Matt

[Todd]

Originally Posted by MJ Heck

Well...

I was hoping my first post would be some brilliant discovery
or revelation so I could begin the karmic payback for all
that I have received here, but this thread is simply to terrific
not to respond.

Diatonic:
I am extremely impressed by the strength of anyone willing
to put something out there and the confidence to see what
comes back. There is nothing harder that starting with a blank page -
I am always astonished at how smart I am when it comes to
someone else's efforts and how much harder everything is with
a blank screen and silence - instant humility. As noted many times,
it all begins with good words and notes, like you have shared with us.
Well done.

Peeder:
I have enjoyed your contributions immensely for the months
I have been reading and learning. Your mix is like a tutorial on
the proper use of reductive EQ. Great job of making room an
picking the heroes of the song.

Todd:
You seem to have it, my friend. Oozing with good taste, then
a fantastic curveball at the bridge -just like it should be.
I love addition of the beats. Just a beautiful overall sonic quality.
Wonderful job.

Most importantly, thank you all for the little reminder of the power
of collaboration that few things can provide like this art form.
There has been a little bit of smallness around of late, but this
is the stuff that just makes me so pleased to be here.

Thanks again, gentlemen.

Matt

Absolutely!!!!!
Its a beautiful thing. Im just as pleased to be here as you are Matt.
To me, this is what its all about.
Let's keep this ball rolling.

And thanks for your great comments Matt!
I really appreciate it.

sincerely,
Todd