The City : A New Mix Please Critique since I critique everyone :)

[drakewire]

Im trying some new things here with sound in general... A little experimental for me, but give me your thoughts on mix, genre, style ect... I think in general the mix is okay but needs something more....

Mixed on a Neve Console with a lot of outboard effects... Vocals Was a Neumann U87 Gold
Drakewire -The City

[china jam]

The timing issues with the muted guitar thing is quite distracting.

[drakewire]

It was intended.... even though its extremely slight... but I dont think thats what wrong with it... because its the ambiance of the hand percussion which creates the jarring thing in the piece... In my own opinion not all music needs to fit the curve of a time signature.... but thats where sometimes I differ in opinion from most ME's

[twwalsh]

the mix is pretty tight, but i agree that the percussion and the guitar don't groove or synch up at all. with such simple parts, the elements really need to work together to establish a compelling feel.

[drakewire]

Thanks... Ya know normally I would totally agree... But Im a nut when it comes to timing issues, and this deviation from the norm I thought added something jarring which obviously to some maybe viewed as crap... Perhaps I should back align a bit and take off the delay on the guitar...
Two people is a trend....
See thats why I love posting here, because there is honesty... My fans and friends just say they love it regardless....

But I think the quality of this console kicks ass! Never used hand percussion before, this was definitely a new experience in recording and mixing...

[china jam]

Truthfully though it's more than jarring, it sounds like it's being played wrong.

The song reminds of (a gothic) Tears For Fears, perhaps it's the reverb on the vocals?

[Old Cane]

Originally Posted by drakewire

... In my own opinion not all music needs to fit the curve of a time signature....

.....and pitch is relative.......(yeah, TO ITSELF!)


Yours is my new favorite saying. Wait until I tell my drummer.

[drakewire]

Old Cane Quote:
Originally Posted by drakewire
... In my own opinion not all music needs to fit the curve of a time signature....

.....and pitch is relative.......(yeah, TO ITSELF!)

Cool I am a drummer too... So check this out the time is in sync based on the staff notes, who said it always has to fit a mold of 4/4 3/4 or lets get crazy 5/4 :)~

Check out anything by Mars Volta and tell me about Time Signatures... The song fits what it needs to do... Which is jar you enough to comment on it.....
While some may hate this, not like it, thats cool... But this has nothing to do with what I originally posted...
I always get attacked on this board... Which is cool I love the criticism... But be creative in how you attack, Pitch is dead on with what the song needed (thank you I do own Auto tune, Melodyne etc) some was already used.... :)~

[jeronimo]

here we go again drake...

first I have to say, the odd time signature on the guitar is realy anoying!!!

now, let's talk about the mix:

- sounds huge on my monitors... I have just listened to some other mixes from some posts and when your started playing... it just... sound... big!!! big, big hand percussion!!

- I don't like the guitar tone, but that's my taste... what was used to track?

- vocals sound great!!!

sounds good to me

[Kris]

The tones and mix are very nice... it's just that it sounds like the artist let their 2 year old nephew come in and track the percussion.

[diatonic]

...

[drakewire]

Yeah this was tracked on a Neve 88.... Then I sent it out to Nuendo and used a few effects... The mix is big only because the console is... I am reworking the hand percussion to fit more on top of the guitar.... This is not meant to have a hook... I guess you could say its more of chant style song....
Thanks for the advice from everyone...

But what Genre would one classify this as?

[diatonic]

...

[amnesiacjimmy]

...it is pretty evocative...the vocals are off in places eg about 2 28 and quite early on, and the gtr goes out a bit in places but i think you get used to it? Am on third listen...personally i would tighten it up esp the percussion, would echo the comment about a 2 yr old on percussion?

Genre I dont really know - semi experimental sparse indie doors ish angstlike :) It is an interesting piece of music. I would probably fill it out a bit more but that is jsut me, not you. hth?

[teddy07x]

I'm not a pro mixer, not even a mixer at all....
the timing shit you keep talking about doesn't bug me at all.

and I would classify myself as an average joe listener.
But the song itself is boring.... it doesn't take me anywhere new, or anywhere I wanna be. the quality is good, sure. But the song itself is... meh...

[SixAndChange]

Big sound you got there. I feel like there was a lot of energy coming out of the right side, though this might have been the panning of your hand drum.

Not to shabby. I wasnt bothered by the guitar.

[danocaster]

I agree - nice mix as long as you completely TRY and tune out the percussion

I find it totally distracting from the vocal ( which IS the most important thing, right ?? )

then again, what do I know

[ScottyD]

Originally Posted by china jam

The timing issues with the muted guitar thing is quite distracting.

+1 to the muted guitar thing. It feels like it's disconnected from the rest of the song.

-ScottyD

[Todd]

Neve, SSL, or any other high end gear cant overcome bad performance
and bad writing.
If you want complete brutal honesty, i'd say mixing is the least of your worries.
The timing issues are pretty atrocious. So is the writing.
Honestly,it sounds like something a 14 year
old wrote, or something.
Cant imagine what you need the Neve for. What's the point?

If you want to be a great mix engineer, go out and find some well written,
well recorded stuff to mix. You clearly dont have the skill to provide
that for yourself at the moment.

Take this with a grain of salt, and remember, its just one
person's opinion.
T

[drakewire]

Jesus! Pretty harsh words and thats fine, like you said a personal opinion is always welcomed good bad or completely hate filled. If ya would have gone to my myspace profile page, you would see I have about 33 songs on there and probably about 50 or so other songs. I have recorded bands for five years now on everything ranging from a small protools kit to huge SSL consoles, the mix like you said is the least of my problems or concerns, I know what I am doing.
From an artistic expression I personally like the off signature, as I had changed it and lined it completely up, and it now sounds so thin, which I feel is a lot of the problem with the music world today in general. Everybody is so hot to trot to sound like everyone else, that my hat from a production side anyway, gives me ulcers from the constant barrage of Fall Out Boy or My Chemical Romance band rip offs.
I have written a great deal of songs in my life sold some to major label artists, been signed myself, and have toured through 30 countries. So if you sit in my chair, I could personally place little importance on the negative way off feed back, but more so that whenever I post something on this board, I love getting the constant critique on genre or the music in general when after all, this is a Mixing Board, and personally since this song has not been mastered it sounds incredible, flipping on a Neve console, does not denote that you will get a great mix, which this is. Regardless of time signatures or artistic direction. Its how well a song is recorded from a dynamics, eq, and level directivity musicality aside its simple as compared to the rest of my music.
So, I am not after your approval but more so sharing a different perspective....


There are a great deal of people who hate Zappa, David Bowie, Mars Volta, etc. I am not comparing this song to these styles, but more so that you cared enough to comment

[i51423]

Originally Posted by drakewire

Cool I am a drummer too... So check this out the time is in sync based on the staff notes, who said it always has to fit a mold of 4/4 3/4 or lets get crazy 5/4 :)~

Check out anything by Mars Volta and tell me about Time Signatures... The song fits what it needs to do...

The point that's been made a few times is that the percussion and guitar are not in sync.. period. There is no weird trickery of crazy time signatures and musical hoodads and whatnot. I mean.. unless we're talking about things being off by 3/127ths being on purpose.

Besides, The Mars Volta may be all over the place with time signatures, but everything is still locked in with eachother.

The double tracked guitars seem to be a little off from eachother, but that could easily be an artistic decision to leave. I just know that I wouldn't.

The mix sounds great. I agree with the comments that the song doesn't really go anywhere. I think it could use a big buildup to a HUGE outro. Bring in a full kit and all. It would sound bangin', IMO. I'm thinking like a Sigur Ros or Mogwai style build. Mmmm.

I'm not a lyricist, so I can't comment on those. I think it's a cool idea, but it needs more.

[jeronimo]

+1 on Mars Volta haters!!!
I prefer At The Drive In!!!

I agree this is a "Mixing Board" but most of the times, people can't separate things...

[drakewire]

I prefer At the Drive- In too Actually the "Hell Paso" days when Mike was recording everything at a little studio called Rosewood... I more of a Sparta Guy Now :)

[Jax]

Originally Posted by drakewire

But what Genre would one classify this as?

I don't like answering a question with a question, but what does it matter what genre it would be? Not every piece of music requires a label. Many are best left floating.

Regarding the timing of the percussion to guitar - if it was intended, I don't think anyone can tell you it was wrong - only that it either pleases the ear or it doesn't.

[Jax]

I think claiming your own mix is "great" may be a little overprotective. The vocals are pleasant and the effected sound bite samples lend a dark vibe to the track, but I think there are problems elsewhere. There are also a few egregious performance issues, but you excuse them as intentional, so I'll leave it at that.

The guitar is unnecessarily full in the low mids, driving too much energy through the right side, and too loud in the mix. This detracts from the body of the vocal sound, although it is still there.

The percussion is too slappy for my tastes. The bulk of the sound is the hand slapping on the skin of the drum. There's very little body or pulse, which would immensely help drive the track. I'd try to balance the low end pulse between the perc and guitar, instead of relying on the guitar to fill it out.

[Zeppelin]

I think the huge sounding percussion in the beginning builds up some expectations, but they're soon gone with the playing/timing issues the others also have commented on. I also think the glockenspiel sound is cool, but would have been cooler without the pad which takes away a lot from the otherwise exotic/mystique sound

I also think the vocal could have benefited from bigger/longer lush reverb to contribute to the chant style.

Originally Posted by drakewire

This is not meant to have a hook... I guess you could say its more of chant style song....

[Master Tang]

The guitar is in time, but sloppy. It's sixteenth notes that need some tightening is all. I really think it would benefit the tune to redo it.

And since we're on the guitar, I'm not so sure it's the right guitar tone for the tune. Needs more Robert Smith type Cure tone. A little more saturated, but not metal/heavy rock type.

[parsley]

I'd echo the comments about the percussion / guitar / synth bell lead relative timing. I can't tell it apart from just not playing tightly. If you're trying to create an atmosphere or suggest something by letting things be off / broken, it might be worth trying other ways to get there. (When I was a teenager I really got into New Order. I thought they were a bit like impressionist painters - not everything fits, and their lead singer had a dodgy voice, but somehow it worked.). Did you have a particular idea to get across by using the MLK speech sample?

[larrykane]

The gear sounds great! and Ithink it's a very neat piece.
IMHO there are musician things making the engineers job harder.
I was fishing for the groove a few seconds too long in the intro.
at 0:17 the vox phrase " nobody dies" the no of nobody sounds odd like a bad anteres formant and the phrase is not locked in rhythmically, compare it to the well done next similar phrase in the same verse. Something has to carry me the listener through and I think here the burden lies on the vocalist. at 1:02 the guitar groove drifts away from the bass (or bass tone if it's not a traditional bass)
Engineer thing-at 1:38 "we as a people" gets kinda hot.
Although it didn't strike me until 2:30(ish) the left side hand drum is either a tiny bit hot or dry or panned too hard.
Alternatively, I think you could ignore all this and just add another rhythmic locked in guitar part to carry the listener from beginning to end.