Critique/Help ITB rock/indie mix

[jared]

Hey Slutz,

Hoping you might be able to take a listen and give some "whatcha thinks" and some advice on this mix, 100% ITB.

While I don't think it sounds too bad given my modest setup, this mix contains several recurring problems I have overall with my mixes:

a) drums-my kick always seems to get buried in the mix. this track is decent with the low-end (I can *feel* it in my car stereo) but especially on small speaker playback, I don't have that right mid/high frequency nailed.

2) guitars-this song should actually have a more distorted/sustaining sound, but I can never seem to get a decent distorted tone without it being rather buzzy/noisy. I'm looking for that warmer, defined distortion sound by groups such as Verbena, Weezer's first album, Feeder, Letters to Cleo, etc. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with EQ, I've been reading about placing a low-pass filter on my guitar bus..will that serve to further bury the guitar in the mix though? It seems the only way I can get the guitar to stand out in the mix is to go for a more jangly sound as opposed to the more hard rock sound.

Anywho, thanks any responses are greatly appreciated

*jared

[danocaster]

hey Jared -

My first question would be what guitar / amp combo are you using ?? It usually starts there.

I would guess you wont need a LPF w/ this particular style - there's a lot of space. I mostly need filters as the mix gets dense ( which this isnt )

I can say this : there is WAY too much room sound - or reverb - on that guitar reducing any "in your face" kinda sound. Thats hurting you for sure

But a beefy humbucker guitar into a tube amp should easily get you something better than what you've got. Just stick a 57 on the grill by the EDGE of the cone - not the center - and you should easily get "big and warm"

Of course - Royers and other ribbons can help even more but a 57 will do it - IF - whats coming outta the amp is good

so what gtr / amp ARE you using ??

[jared]

Heh, when I said 100% ITB I meant it...the guitars are actually through NI's Guitar Rig 2. The 'room' sound is basically the main "amp" panned maybe 35% right and other amp-styles mixed lower sitting hard left/right. Basically, trying to get some depth and a more organic sound out of the unit...that "amp in a room" sound.

The Choruses have an additional guitar track hard right (ambiance left) That's more of a fuzz tone...that same track is also the solo/interlude.

I do have a SM57 and a rather pathetic solid-state peavey rig dating back to the early 90's...but I haven't used that setup for recording in a long time, it sounded pretty crap as well. =)

I haven't used filters a whole lot, seemed everytime I did it seemed to make things sound worse...like they were more suited for electronic elements. Any pointers there?

Thanks!

[jared]

sorry..guitar in question is my fender strat...wiring mods but no humbucker.

[danocaster]

well...

there's the problem !!

Doing this style is about the last place I could / would use direct gtrs.

Sometimes I can use a few lil tremolo parts or something that are direct but for the big meat and potatoes gtrs , you need to move some air to make me happy

do yourself a favor and spend $200 and get a Fender Pro Jr. It's small, and relatively quiet, and is all tube and will definitely get you some BIG gtr sounds

If going direct is a must - take a fuzz and go straight into a Neve and CRANK it. It wont sound like a spk but will be a lot cooler than what you got going direct

[drakewire]

This is a reoccurring debate to NI or not to NI... The thing is when used correctly Native Instruments can fool even the most distinguished ear. Especially if you warm up the direct in with say for example a great MIC pre and compressor. So lets not get off track there. The guitars sound decent a little metallic and a little bit too plastic for my taste, but it may be just the song.
The drums sound distorted and are definitely garage. For a mix like this the drums need to really lead the song. Guitars and everything else is second. Get the kick and bass lined up and you have a great mix, if not the song fails on both the top and low end. Right now, the song is extremely top heavy with major emphasis on the 1.5 to 2.5 range and then again in the 8 to 10k region, this can sometimes be a great thing or a very bad thing depending on whats happening in the low end, which in the song, everything below 800 is muffled if not completely buried.
Personally, I can take a guess that this is not being mixed in a treated environment because bass is one of those issues that when you mix in a less than desirable environment you can sometimes miss or completely misinterpret. Which on this song is the problem.
My advice is to remix getting the bass and kick to really line up with some punch, then mix in the snare and the symbols after you got a nice drum sound mix the bass in cutting everything above 5k. On the Kick boost the 120- 180 range with about 2DB with a Q of .5 and compress the bass with an attack of 3 and a release of 1. Play around with these two sounds until you've got punch and warmth. Trust me they will line up and are definitely important...
After that pan the guitars using Native is fine just double track using one track Left at about 60 percent and Right at 60 percent... Make sure you warm up those guitars by eq with some warmth in the 230 range and again in the 1.3 to 1.6 range.
The mix right now is just missing the mids and the lows... But often, its how you control the top end that matters because of human hearing and hardware deficiency....
Best of Luck
D.Drake

[jared]

You are correct, Drake, my mixing environment is not treated, and I usually end up referencing through a lot of systems in order to get a bass sound that isn't too boomy or conversely weak. Lots of trial and error.

I agree with you that the mix is top heavy...and that's been a continuing theme in many of my recordings. To me they just don't sound like a well-balanced, full mix...they have less "oomph". Thanks for the EQ pointers and the advice. I am going to try mixing my next sessions like you said, starting out with kick and bass (I mix now by getting the drum sound, then working in the bass..but essentially using the full kit mix).

I think one thing that really throws me off with the NI Rig is that the more or less dry sound from it, one amp one close "mic" sounds really fake on it's own...understandably because if I mic a cranked amp, even though I'm close micing it I still hear the ambiance coming from the room. I think that 'metallic' sound you describe is a by product of that. Probably guilty of not thinking of the mix and going for a good solo guitar tone as opposed to one that will fit in nicely.

[drakewire]

Lets think of NI as you would any other pedal, because after all thats all it is. its a processor. Which I have used on Several Sessions where the Amps or the equipment were not available. You can get sounds out of them when used in conjunction with a nice mic pre and compressor that rivals and almost matches the real thing. No regular music listener would ever know the difference anyway.
This is not the issue with the recording though. I take it going out and buying some JBL monitors with Room Correction Technology is out of the question. 1000 bucks is steep, the KRK's when used softly can give you an excellent bass reference. Getting a sub woofer would be awesome too...

However! When money is not in supply... Use your meters..

Typical Rock Mixes should cut
everything below 20 all the way to 40KHZ depending on the song to get bass punch and warmth. Almost all rock songs have a major peak in the 109-230 range with tapers here and there between the 230 to 700 range... What you want to do is really get a balance between the highs and the lows, where as you can hear the highs and the lows when you walk out of the room.

This is aDYI Method, but I have seen it done...

Turn up your mix go drive in a car and if all your music sounds like hiss you have too much high end, vice versa
another DYI method is the take your monitors and aim them at a wall and go stand on the other side of the wall and press your ear to it... The insulation from the dry wall will tell you how much subsonic frequency is actually in the mix.. Most of all it will give you a huge indicator of how much bass is appropriate...

Lastly Trial and Error

[jared]

Thanks for all the input guys...I'm working on a remix based on your suggestions and by paying attention to HOW I'm mixing has really helped. I feel that I usually end up with a top heavy mix by trying to use guitar to push the song as opposed to drums, like drakewire said, which really should be pushing the mix forward. One obstacle I still have is how the kick still gets lost in the mix, but I think it's more emblematic of the drums as a whole. I can't seem to get that right combination of lows and highs as well as the "slap" on my reference track ("baby got shot" by verbena). My drum track seems to really hover around the midrange and remain dark, esp the snare...not nearly as bright.

I'm using mainly Waves plugs (my big splurge, other than that they're mostly free plugs) and have used the C1 to try compressing the kick and snare (roughly 8:1 with 300ms attack 60ms release, but I'm pretty lost as to how to use compression to 'shape' my drum sounds ) but it just doesn't have that slap that I think would help put the drums in their proper place.

[drakewire]

try this on the kick depending on the tempo set a very heavy ratio 50:1 use side chain Look ahead on PDR 1 attacki at 67-70 release 1 then drag down the threshhold until you start to see the little red meter pop up and down.... Then use eq to blend any harshness....