Guess who?

**mwagener** · 27th March 2004, 06:00 AM

Here is a little morsel from a not-to-be-named artist. It's the original mix of a song that never made the album release. Keep in mind that this is unmastered and was mixed in the very early 90s when we still were allowed to put reverb on snares

I faded it for obvious reasons

Sofa King · 27th March 2004, 07:44 AM

VERY cool.
Im a big fan of his and yours.
got anymore???

thanks

Sean

picksail · 27th March 2004, 08:03 AM

Nice bit of nostalgia. As always Michael, great work!! Who was the guitar player? Was it the one that participated in the writing of some of the matierial later used on the release? It doesn't entirely resemble the current one.

Randall · 27th March 2004, 09:18 AM

That whistle makes the guitar player pretty obvious..HA!!
Great stuff !!!...si Senior, got more?!?!?

BevvyB · 27th March 2004, 11:12 AM

Great memories

My first 'proper' gig I ever saw was him at London Hammersmith when I was 17, followed by his headline gig at Donington. You could say it was his fault I ever got into metal.

My other favourite band of that era was the upcoming Metalica, who were at the bottom of the bill at Donington that year!

So, you're doing ok in my books Michael.

But answer the question, who was the guitarist?

Jam · 27th March 2004, 11:41 AM

Thanks Michael

Cool out take. How did you process the reverse effect that's on the vocal in the "bridge" ? I love that sound.

Jam

**mwagener** · 27th March 2004, 02:16 PM

Thje guitar player was some Wylde guy, hmm can't remember his name...

The backwards effects where done on a analog 2" machine. I recorded the vocal track on the 2" (synced via SMPTE to the Mitsubishi digital machine) then turned the tape around, put flanged reverb on the vocal then turned the tape back to normal and synced it back up to the digital machine.

blackcatdigi · 27th March 2004, 04:01 PM

You ROCK, Michael!

See you soon!

DirkB · 27th March 2004, 07:37 PM

Hey, I know that singer!

Cool stuff, great mix... wouldn't expect anything less

Greetings,
Dirk

Tim L · 27th March 2004, 08:02 PM

Very cool!... would love to hear more!!!!!

Jam · 28th March 2004, 12:14 PM

Thanks for the insight Michael. Now I'm off to experiment ( insert evil scientist laugh )

Jam

**mwagener** · 30th March 2004, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim L
Very cool!... would love to hear more!!!!!

there is tons more where that came from, I'm just not sure about the legal side of things. I'll dig around in the tape vault...

drew · 30th March 2004, 03:49 PM

you should hear Michael's version A/B'ed with the one that ended up on the record!!! Michael's is way better.

No More Tears sold what, 4 mil.
Ozzmosis, 1mil
drew

alphajerk · 30th March 2004, 04:33 PM

i have a question about production from back then that i cant seem to repro... the verb on the snare. wtf?!? how do you get the massiveness of it while still keeping the snare relatively foward? it ALWAYS pushes mine back.

toledo3 · 30th March 2004, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by alphajerk
i have a question about production from back then that i cant seem to repro... the verb on the snare. wtf?!? how do you get the massiveness of it while still keeping the snare relatively foward? it ALWAYS pushes mine back.

I can't answer for wagener, but I would compress the reverb return.

flexoffset · 30th March 2004, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mwagener
there is tons more where that came from

Maybe we can hear some at the BBQ this summer?

**mwagener** · 31st March 2004, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flexoffset
Maybe we can hear some at the BBQ this summer?

You bet...

**mwagener** · 31st March 2004, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by alphajerk
i have a question about production from back then that i cant seem to repro... the verb on the snare. wtf?!? how do you get the massiveness of it while still keeping the snare relatively foward? it ALWAYS pushes mine back.

It's all about the predelay on the reverb. Keep the snare clean of verb (timewise maybe 40-50ms) and let the Early Reflections and the reverb start later. What you hear on that song was mostly a 480L modified algo (sorry, forgot which preset, some hall, I think). I do remember that I EQ'd the reverb send (low pass) and return. No compression on the verb, just a long setting, about 2.3 sec decay.

Deege · 31st March 2004, 02:44 AM

Hey Michael! I really love your work...
I am a huge Ozzy and Zakk fan, and I was just curious....
was that (your version) recorded for No More Tears, with Zakk, Bob Daisley and Randy Castillo, and re-recorded later with Zakk, Geezer, and Deen Castronovo?
Or is this one of those tracks they supposedly recorded to be used as Live & Loud studio bonus tracks in 1992 (Such as Aimee and See You On The Other Side)? I was just curious what was recorded for what, I hadn't heard of Perry Mason existing that far back!

**mwagener** · 31st March 2004, 03:08 AM

Well, after the success of No More Tears, the label came to me in 1994 and asked me to do the next album. They wanted "Exactly the same record as No More Tears". We completed 7 songs (pre production to mix) and then the label came and said: "Now we want it to sound like Soundgarden". As you can imagine, if you start a project with a firm direction, it's not easy to change to a completely different diection half way through, especially after the songs are already mixed.

The project was put on hold and later given to another producer to finish/redo. The result turned into Ozzmosis. They re-did most of the recording, and on the tracks they kept, they triggered drumsamples, slowed them down (like on Perry Mason) etc. When I first heard the finished product I was ready to get out of the business (and apparently so was Ozzy, as he told me). Later the record got re-released with a bonus track (Aimee) which was one of the original songs I produced and mixed.

See You On The Other Side also was one of the original tracks we did for Ozzmosis, but you would have to come to the studio to hear that one

Deege · 31st March 2004, 03:23 AM

I actually like Ozzmosis (although the production is iffy)...
But, damn...I wish they would have made your record instead, because it would have been 100 times better. Ozzy's vocals even sound a lot better and "younger" on your recording.
LOL damn, you know, I would actually visit your studio to hear some of that shit, man! I am a huge fan, and also an aspiring producer so it'd be awesome to come check it out.

**mwagener** · 31st March 2004, 03:29 AM

come on down

Deege · 31st March 2004, 03:46 AM

you have email man! LOL

jpaudio · 5th April 2004, 05:41 AM

What a radical difference... i'd love to compare to the album version on a nicer system than my Apple speakers, lol... but a fair comparison would be tough regarding the massive difference in production. Beinhorn retracked that entire album IIRC... I remember reading about Ozzmosis being tracked 3 different times with 3 different producers or something, Duane Baron/John Purdell team being the 3rd, again IIRC. I bet Ozzy wished he had stayed retired after all that. No wonder Zakk left the band after that album!

I think it's clear which vibe fits Ozzy best, damn label mooks!

**mwagener** · 5th April 2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jpaudio
What a radical difference... i'd love to compare to the album version on a nicer system than my Apple speakers, lol... but a fair comparison would be tough regarding the massive difference in production. Beinhorn retracked that entire album IIRC... I remember reading about Ozzmosis being tracked 3 different times with 3 different producers or something, Duane Baron/John Purdell team being the 3rd, again IIRC...

jpaudio, I believe you are thinking about "No More Tears" which was completely tracked 3 times an mixed 4 times. I was brought in after Duane and John where finished with their mix. We talked about the vibe of the record and I tried to stay within their original vision of it. According to them it worked fine, they were happy with my mixes.

Ozzmosis was not completely re-tracked, some of the songs were slowed down and some of the original tracks were used and others were eliminated (like the saxophone and outro choir on "See You On The Other Side"). The original drums were replaced by samples

The main problem here is that the vibe got changed (by the label) halfway through the project, so it ended up being a vibe-bastard.

What is IIRC?

jpaudio · 5th April 2004, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mwagener

What is IIRC?

"If I recall correctly"

Thanks for the insight Michael!

Deege · 5th April 2004, 06:34 PM

Ahh No More Tears was retracked 3 times?
That would explain why Bob Daisley plays bass on it, while Mike Inez was actually Ozzy's bass player at the time. I have heard about how Inez is really really slow in the studio and takes forever to get his takes, where-as Daisley is a true professional.

**mwagener** · 5th April 2004, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deege
Ahh No More Tears was retracked 3 times?
That would explain why Bob Daisley plays bass on it, while Mike Inez was actually Ozzy's bass player at the time. I have heard about how Inez is really really slow in the studio and takes forever to get his takes, where-as Daisley is a true professional.

Nope again. Mike Inez is a great bassplayer and great to work with in the studio. He actually wrote the original riff to "No More Tears"(the song). I'm not sure how many songs Mike played and how many were played by Bob, but I'm sure it was not because Mike was too slow. Maybe Mike wasn't in the band yet when the album got started. I try to find out from him...

jpaudio · 5th April 2004, 09:26 PM

Having listened to this mp3 for a day or so, after hearing the album version since '95 or whenever it was released, I gotta say MW's production/mix flat-out smokes the released version... it just compliments the song and Ozzy's style so much better, from the mix aspects to the use of synths and other production elements. Between Ozzmosis and Ozzy's latest studio album, he owes it to himself to give Michael a buzz again...

Deege · 5th April 2004, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mwagener
Nope again. Mike Inez is a great bassplayer and great to work with in the studio. He actually wrote the original riff to &q

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27th March 2004, 07:44 AM	#2
Sofa King Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 411	Re: Guess who? VERY cool. Im a big fan of his and yours. got anymore??? thanks Sean __________________ Sean McDonald Sofa King Music Services production engineering songwriting http://www.myspace.com/sofakingmusicserivcesstudio http://www.myspace.com/skmusicservices

27th March 2004, 11:12 AM	#5
BevvyB Mindreader Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: London Posts: 2,602	Great memories My first 'proper' gig I ever saw was him at London Hammersmith when I was 17, followed by his headline gig at Donington. You could say it was his fault I ever got into metal. My other favourite band of that era was the upcoming Metalica, who were at the bottom of the bill at Donington that year! So, you're doing ok in my books Michael. But answer the question, who was the guitarist? __________________ Julian Moore \| Georgia Wonder \| Biz Blog

27th March 2004, 02:16 PM	#7
mwagener High End Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Music City USA Posts: 2,881	Thje guitar player was some Wylde guy, hmm can't remember his name... The backwards effects where done on a analog 2" machine. I recorded the vocal track on the 2" (synced via SMPTE to the Mitsubishi digital machine) then turned the tape around, put flanged reverb on the vocal then turned the tape back to normal and synced it back up to the digital machine. __________________ Michael Wagener http://www.michaelwagener.com Production workshops at WireWorld Studio

27th March 2004, 04:01 PM	#8
blackcatdigi Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: upstate, sc Posts: 1,465	You ROCK, Michael! See you soon! __________________ Sincerely, Casey SC Digital Services Bob Olhsson wrote on 17th September 2002, 12:56 PM: "Music is being used to sort consumers rather than to entertain people."

27th March 2004, 08:03 AM	#3
picksail Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 3,308	Nice bit of nostalgia. As always Michael, great work!! Who was the guitar player? Was it the one that participated in the writing of some of the matierial later used on the release? It doesn't entirely resemble the current one.

27th March 2004, 09:18 AM	#4
Randall Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Muscle Shoals Posts: 3,935	That whistle makes the guitar player pretty obvious..HA!! Great stuff !!!...si Senior, got more?!?!?

27th March 2004, 11:41 AM	#6
Jam Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South East England Posts: 834	Thanks Michael Cool out take. How did you process the reverse effect that's on the vocal in the "bridge" ? I love that sound. Jam

27th March 2004, 07:37 PM	#9
DirkB Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,467	Hey, I know that singer! Cool stuff, great mix... wouldn't expect anything less Greetings, Dirk __________________ -progress takes away what forever took to find- Dave Matthews

27th March 2004, 08:02 PM	#10
Tim L Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lawn Guy Land Posts: 1,350	Very cool!... would love to hear more!!!!! __________________ "Play ƒuckin' Loud!!!..." - Bob Dylan, May 17 1966

28th March 2004, 12:14 PM	#11
Jam Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South East England Posts: 834	Thanks for the insight Michael. Now I'm off to experiment ( insert evil scientist laugh ) Jam

30th March 2004, 03:49 PM	#13
drew Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Maryland,USA Posts: 2,382	you should hear Michael's version A/B'ed with the one that ended up on the record!!! Michael's is way better. No More Tears sold what, 4 mil. Ozzmosis, 1mil drew

30th March 2004, 04:33 PM	#14
alphajerk There is only one Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: asheville NC Posts: 5,291	i have a question about production from back then that i cant seem to repro... the verb on the snare. wtf?!? how do you get the massiveness of it while still keeping the snare relatively foward? it ALWAYS pushes mine back. __________________ "i must invent my own systems or else be enslaved by other men's'" william blake __________________________ send me a buzz @ barrett's mad laboratory 828.242.4366 email: barrett [at] alphajerk [dot] com

31st March 2004, 02:44 AM	#19
Deege Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 23	Hey Michael! I really love your work... I am a huge Ozzy and Zakk fan, and I was just curious.... was that (your version) recorded for No More Tears, with Zakk, Bob Daisley and Randy Castillo, and re-recorded later with Zakk, Geezer, and Deen Castronovo? Or is this one of those tracks they supposedly recorded to be used as Live & Loud studio bonus tracks in 1992 (Such as Aimee and See You On The Other Side)? I was just curious what was recorded for what, I hadn't heard of Perry Mason existing that far back!

31st March 2004, 03:08 AM	#20
mwagener High End Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Music City USA Posts: 2,881	Well, after the success of No More Tears, the label came to me in 1994 and asked me to do the next album. They wanted "Exactly the same record as No More Tears". We completed 7 songs (pre production to mix) and then the label came and said: "Now we want it to sound like Soundgarden". As you can imagine, if you start a project with a firm direction, it's not easy to change to a completely different diection half way through, especially after the songs are already mixed. The project was put on hold and later given to another producer to finish/redo. The result turned into Ozzmosis. They re-did most of the recording, and on the tracks they kept, they triggered drumsamples, slowed them down (like on Perry Mason) etc. When I first heard the finished product I was ready to get out of the business (and apparently so was Ozzy, as he told me). Later the record got re-released with a bonus track (Aimee) which was one of the original songs I produced and mixed. See You On The Other Side also was one of the original tracks we did for Ozzmosis, but you would have to come to the studio to hear that one __________________ Michael Wagener http://www.michaelwagener.com Production workshops at WireWorld Studio

31st March 2004, 03:23 AM	#21
Deege Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 23	I actually like Ozzmosis (although the production is iffy)... But, damn...I wish they would have made your record instead, because it would have been 100 times better. Ozzy's vocals even sound a lot better and "younger" on your recording. LOL damn, you know, I would actually visit your studio to hear some of that shit, man! I am a huge fan, and also an aspiring producer so it'd be awesome to come check it out.

31st March 2004, 03:29 AM	#22
mwagener High End Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Music City USA Posts: 2,881	come on down __________________ Michael Wagener http://www.michaelwagener.com Production workshops at WireWorld Studio

31st March 2004, 03:46 AM	#23
Deege Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 23	you have email man! LOL

5th April 2004, 05:41 AM	#24
jpaudio Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 649	What a radical difference... i'd love to compare to the album version on a nicer system than my Apple speakers, lol... but a fair comparison would be tough regarding the massive difference in production. Beinhorn retracked that entire album IIRC... I remember reading about Ozzmosis being tracked 3 different times with 3 different producers or something, Duane Baron/John Purdell team being the 3rd, again IIRC. I bet Ozzy wished he had stayed retired after all that. No wonder Zakk left the band after that album! I think it's clear which vibe fits Ozzy best, damn label mooks! __________________ -- J.P. Sheganoski Recording/Mixing engineer www.RisusProductions.com

5th April 2004, 06:34 PM	#27
Deege Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 23	Ahh No More Tears was retracked 3 times? That would explain why Bob Daisley plays bass on it, while Mike Inez was actually Ozzy's bass player at the time. I have heard about how Inez is really really slow in the studio and takes forever to get his takes, where-as Daisley is a true professional.

5th April 2004, 09:26 PM	#29
jpaudio Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 649	Having listened to this mp3 for a day or so, after hearing the album version since '95 or whenever it was released, I gotta say MW's production/mix flat-out smokes the released version... it just compliments the song and Ozzy's style so much better, from the mix aspects to the use of synths and other production elements. Between Ozzmosis and Ozzy's latest studio album, he owes it to himself to give Michael a buzz again... __________________ -- J.P. Sheganoski Recording/Mixing engineer www.RisusProductions.com