Total In The Box Mix.... Can it be done...

[drakewire]

okay I am delving into this whole in the box stuff. However, i am taking it a step more...
I am attempting to mix using a Saffire Pro 26 I/O and the Liquid Mix only..Everything Line in with no outboard at all... Just Plug-ins.... I think it can be done...
I just started on the mix... So as such its only got two verses no chorus yet... (Havent written that)....

There is dirty mastering on it just for level... So far so good... I think... What do you think

[peeder]

Drums sound good. Everything is fine. You're aiming for an early 80's new wave sound so you're AOK. There's nothing too odd about 100% ITB. It's done all the time.

[drakewire]

Thats the same thing the big boys say but If you listen... Its not quite 80's....
Its Something I like to call Expo Pop, which I didnt pick Spin did....

But thanks Boss!!!
I am really trying to do this, there are a lot of parts that still need work...

I am mixing with this FS Pro 26 instead of the Neve 88D to see if I can rival the sounds....

I am using

a bunch of cheap mic's
URS Plugs (Well mainly Channel Strip Pro)
I have a Mesa Boogie Micked with a TLM 103
Vox Believe it or Not I went AKG instead of Neumann
Drums I am using a bunch of crap Blue on Kick (I like the sound) toms Shure Sm 58 and Guitars I used Manley

As far as Kit
I was limited for this exercise...
I only used Focusrite 26 with the Liquid Mix (very cool) I used a crap lopad of settings to make the mix as fat as I could. Since digital kind of lacks on the drums department... But I made the sound as fat as I could...

I think it went okay... Its still in mix...
I will post the final mix once done.... But Instead of using a slew of out board tools, I want to see if its possible ITB to mix a warm track, that is indistinguishable from analog

[Improv]

I like the drums a lot! Nice punch, control, and clarity. Samples, right? Good job on the programming and processing.

The vocal's nice too. A tad cloudy, but good level throughout.

The bass is rather undefined and wooly for my tastes. It blends into the guitars, which is kind of cool, but it's too "spread" for my tastes. I would like it a bit more centered.

But nitpicking aside, the original question is basically, "does this sound ITB"... and I would say, no. It's nice and warm, wooly, analog-like... all that good stuff. Perhaps just a bit too much of it in the lowend though.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by drakewire

I will post the final mix once done.... But Instead of using a slew of out board tools, I want to see if its possible ITB to mix a warm track, that is indistinguishable from analog

I think what you'll find is it's hard to make ITB sound as bad. I.e. everything "analog" is actually reduced fidelity, more wooliness and smear, etc. But sometimes these inaccuracies can actually make something seem more realistic because in real-world listening environments there's lots of wooliness and smear off the walls etc.

And on that point, I might say the oddest thing about what you had was the drums sounded too big, full, and clear for the retro sound! I'm expecting early Linn sounds drenched in cheap reverb or something with that style. But the drums do sound great and there's no harm in updating the original.

[drakewire]

It does have a lot going on in the low end... Its early on in the mix though... Ill tweek it up a bit to sound a bit more modern once I get into the swing of things...
the drums are 100 percent real....
Nothing fake here with the exception of how its processed... Everything has been miked as it should, just the fact that I am not using the Neve 88 that I usually use, just this little Saffire Pro to demonstrate its ability....

So far, like I said... Things are going well...
The bass is centered... It just doesnt have as much punch as Id like.. I think Im going to use the L2 :) lol with a threshold of 30 and use ARC because it seems that to get the Fender Steady in this mix, its gonna take more than the Plugs... this is dirty but I think it will work

[H-Rezz]

Hi Drake ,

I think it sounds great , my suggestion would be to look for a way to smear the hats and cymbals , this is where you can hear the difference between an ITB or OTB mix , op amps in consoles like SSL have slower slew rates which result in the cymbals not being so immediate , likewise with the top end for those elements ! Not sure what plugs you have , but something like the Phoenix plug should do this , or equivelant ....

Have fun experimenting

[drakewire]

Yeah the Cymbols and the Crash are definitely in need of a nose job on the high end... I was thinking of using a bit of compression and attenuating the frequency above 7k on the crash so that it blends better with the high end... Of course, I was also thinking that once it goes to Mastering to Tape that will blend it too... But I don't have that luxury on this project as it must be mixed and mastered in the box. I want to prove to my S.E. that I can do it without the need of a big fancy console.
Although, to be quite honest, I find it is a great deal more work to mix in the box, its very easy to get the tracks in but hard to make them sound real. With Analog consoles you stick it in and usually get a good sound the first or second time. In the Digital World there is a lot of tweaking that must be done to achieve the sounds that rival that of say Neve, SSL, etc. I am very tempted to go and buy that UAD-1 as it has the LA-3A emulation that I am missing on the vocals, I use that as my go to compressor. The Liquid Mix apparently has this function but I cant figure out which one it is...

[H-Rezz]

I think it helps to slightly change your outlook with what you are dealing with in ITB mixing vs OTB , i view in the box as starting with a white sheet of paper , and out of the box as a kind of grey or off-white kind of paper , so when you try to mimic the OTB effect you are trying to grey up those elements in the ITB mix that you feel are stuck on white paper , that said those sorts of things are also done OTB for example i remember reading an interview by Tony Masserati where to warm up or round off a vocal he had to find the right blend of hardware to do this , like summit into a neve into bla bla bla etc , this reminded me of how people would go about do certian things ITB , which are not exclusively ITB mentality ....

Knowing what analog sounds like and having mixed on it helps you in your ITB quest because you know what you are looking for , i could imagine people who started with ITB mixing would have a more difficult time calculating what needs to be smeared, lo-fied whatever you want to call it ...

[drakewire]

I agree digital is super clean....

No hiss to contend with. Although a lot of the noise on a board I always thought was desirable.....

i have found that kind of noise can be recreated very easily with these compressor emulators (SSL, UAD, URS) etc.

The main thing Im having a problem is keeping the bass right in the center with the kick... Ive tried the Usual compression ratios.... etc... But It sound a little wobbly... Any suggestions?

[PettyCash]

A trick that has always worked for me was grouping the kick and bass after processing them seperately and putting a limiter like the L2 on the group. I find that it helps to keep the bass and kicks sounding more cohesive in the mix.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by drakewire

The main thing Im having a problem is keeping the bass right in the center with the kick... Ive tried the Usual compression ratios.... etc... But It sound a little wobbly... Any suggestions?

You can try keying it off the kick , if side chaining is available .... if that is not a sound you are going for get drastic be bold and push your plugs , i usually do this with a Distressor in an OTB situation , i think Vintage Warmer could do the trick in the box .Also i bit od Dimesion D won't go astray for the style you are going for on a send, just to broaden it out a little , Yello's Boris Blank is a good guy to listen to for this type of stuff, he also has a knack of sterioizing the bass brilliantly ....

Sometimes i might stick a bit of bass in the parrallel comp drum bus , just so it bangs underneath a bit ....

[chymer]

Key the bass compressor with the kick drum.
And also copy the bass to another track and add some grit and high end and blend back in.
Chymer

[drakewire]

A few people messaged me and asked me how I recorded the drums the way I did... I am not like all these S.E's that dont share secrets because at the end of the day its all about the music...
Acoustic instruments are the hardest thing to get right in a mix. Chances are that you can pop any john mayer CD and then attempt to copy the same techniques and fall way short regardless of the equipment that you are using. To me Room is one of the most important factors. Normally when I track drums on the Neve 88 I use in Studio, I damn near use between 15-20 mic's to get the sound I'm looking for.
However, for this exercise, all I could use was the Focusrite 26 . Definately more challenging... The end result, the drums still sound real, as they should in the mix.
I have a chart on how I recorded drums in the digital spectrum if anyone would like it, I will forward...
To me, you can achieve the real thing without sampling, as long as you have two microphones....
:)

[chymer]

your drums sound progrmmed, or they were probably sound replaced with samples.
CHymer

[drakewire]

No, not at all... No Samples Used... I take that back The snare I overlayed a sample and blended it in ... But toms kick high hats all the real thing....
You know not everyone buys into that replace everything, its easier crap :)~


But thanks for saying that all the effort was just programmed....

LOL
No but seriously...
While this is certainly not a mastered mix, it still has the earthiness live approach of hitting a tom in a drum chamber.... I used a bit of reverb after the fact, but everything was recorded clean and then tweaked....

[Ecktronic]

Sorry for my lack of knowledge in certain terms.
In the box means mixing only in a DAW and nothing else?


If so then, I heard Terry Date usually mixes totally in the box.
Maybe a nice analogue compressor over the stereo out but nothing else Im sure.

Eck

[VegetativeState]

Those drums sound really good, I'd love to know more about how you got them.

[jeronimo]

Am I the only one that didn't fall in love with the drum sounds?? Maybe I should listen to it again...
But yes, I agree, today most people just put samples in and forget about mic placement, mic choice, room, etc...

[chymer]

The snare I overlayed a sample and blended it in

Thought so, not that there is anything wrong with that.
I think layering samples is a must personally.
Chymer

[drakewire]

Well it mostly depends on what you are going for in the mix, the genre and yada yada... But The snare drum can be a little punk if it is awry.
Since the snare sits right in the middle of the track with the bass and vocals, I tend to not replace it, but layer a sample over it but not completely replace it. Then it tends to get fake sounding. I was reading that Chris Lord Age, doesn't even do that.
The jury is still out on that, I love the way his drums sound.

Although different tracks I do, have a much different placement and emphasis on the drums, this one just so happened to be a song that needed drive in the kick, toms, and snare...

[briefcasemanx]

can you post about how you got those drum sounds, or pm me with that chart or whatever you were talking about? I'm curious.