need serious help, i don't like my chorus

[u b k]

guys, i'm stuck and ready to get past this long-standing struggle i got with my choruses, and i really need outside perspective.

here's my latest; this is actually my favorite song in my arsenal right now --- when i play it on acoustic guitar and voice, alone. but this arrangement/production falls apart for me in the choruses. i love the verses, but the choruses have this inexorable climb to climax which sounds predictable and (dare i say it) cheesy to me. i don't dig my voice in that zone either. the intimacy of the song gets totally lost, i feel like it pushes away when i want to be embracing the listener.


http://www.everydayclarity.com/ubk/ubk-bubble.mp3


what i want is for the choruses to be more 70's, to stay in the beautiful mellow place the verses create while still delivering an emotional payoff. iow, to not fall back on predictable rock 'n roll dynamics, but rather to craft a musical statement that does the work for me. modern artists like zero7 and portishead do it. the eagles and the beatles did it. i reckon it's my turn.

so everything is up for grabs as i'm about to retool, retrack, and remix. vocal melody, phrasing, lyric, chords, whatever. lay into me with all you got, nothing is sacred for me here, the only thing that matters is that i conquer this demon. about half my new songs have this consistent mellow quality i'm after, but i don't know how to massage it into this song. fwiw, i really do think this song wants to be toned down.

i truly do welcome any and all feedback.

thank you.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[structuredloud]

Sounds good. I like the verses very much too. Here's my two cents about the chorus:

Music:

You use a lot of perfect intervals when harmonizing your voice. That's very cool when it's foating over a sparse verse with a pedal tone in the bass, that's because it has a very free moving non-tertian tonality.

But, in the chorus when the vocals dominate those strong perfect intervals make the harmonic content very rigid and strong (can't build or resolve). I'm not a "power chord" hater or a voice-leading snob so I don't mean it that way.

Sound:

Maybe pan some dry or wet vocals out to the sides in the chorus, or throw everything else out there so that it feels wider than the verse? Unless you're going for a very in your face vocal sound there.

Good work, I hope this helps.

[dim light]

I would try something elese on the chorus - I agree it doesn't rock - the verses are nice - sounds a little like your other song you poster a while back. Really cool mix...

I don't have any tips how to take it one step higher - I think the chorus needs work... I like the middle 8 thing before the chorus - 02:37 - 02:46

I would make the chorus simple - not so many chord changes...

I think the intro is too long...

[lucey]

A rhythmic change in the drum groove (of the CH) to a cut time/half time ... chunk, chunk, would be nice ... the Ch is too busy in both groove and words. Needs clarity and definition.

Vocal ... less words (in the CH) ... make choppy sentances like "Nowhere you go" ... more painterly sentances "fall it down on me" not so literal, thus not so cheesy.

I also hear an ebow type guitar line around the Ch. vocal to pin it down.





The intro is a little too long for me, and the pre-ch is confusing. I agree with most of what TTF said.

[PapillonIrl]

Wow tough one.

I agree that something is taking away from what is (and could be more so IMO) an emotive chorus.

I'm just not sure what....

Maybe, different chords , less chords , less tense chords (that second one), maybe the harmony (or choice of, as mentioned above) is distracting from the intimacy of the chorus vocal.

Disagree about the above comment about the intro, I love it. Zero7 and Postishead fan here also. Love the verses and the mix.

Chorus cheesy ? That's very over critical in my opinion.

If I was in your situation I would mute as many things as possible when the chorus kicks in, and THEN build the chorus up so that there is eventually a fall in dynamic when the verse comes back. Just to see what you learn, from it, and what the vital elements to the chorus are, but you've probably already done that.

Rhythm... You could experiment alot here, obviously sampled drums ala Portishead, mangled persussive sounds, turning the beat around etc.

I think though, in fairness, there may be a possiblity that you just haven't found the melody/chord relationship hook that you feel this song deserves after such strong verses.

Typed as I was thinking, sorry if it's a little incoherent.

Love the mix BTW, and I like the song as it stands, but I see your point about wanting to achieve a strong chorus without using techniques that are used alot.

Good luck, sorry this probably wasn't much help.

Nathan

[djui5]

I didn't read the other replies, so if it's been mentioned then whoops.


At the end of the first verse there is 8 bars of just music before the pre-chorus kicks in. You need to change this to 6 bars, or even 5 bars or something un-expected.

The drums should be different in the chorus too. You need something to smack, like a good snare in a big room, and turn down the acoustics, find something different to drive the song there. Maybe turn up that organ or whatever is sitting so far back on the left. Something sounds like it might be out of tune here too. Also, the bass in the A section of the chorus sounds good sonically, but I can't help to think maybe you should change the note structure of it. Play some more notes, it sounds too simple to me. I also wonder if you could phrase the vocals in the chorus differently. I like how it fades back into the verse, very nice. The chorus right before it fades into the verse could be more airy too. It's not big enough, airy enough. I think it's a bar and a half or something, didn't count it.

I think your vox performance could be better also. There's not enough presence, and it sometimes sounds like your trying too hard. Like you hate your own voice.

It's a very cool song, and obviously sparks intellect, just look at the replies.

[Farfensound]

I'm not sure I agree that there are too many chords but I do agree that your vocal could be stronger. It needs more angst or sorrow to match the lyrical content.

3:14-4:01 (or so) As your singing Fall on me a woman's voice needs to enter in counter point to refute what your saying. Texture it like the Claire Torry vocal on "The Great gig in the Sky" off of Dark side of the moon.


As for the chorus since that's what your asking. I'm thinking that it's in the wrong mode. I can't pick out what key your in right now or what you modulate too so I'm not going to make any recommendations on what to go to. But picking another mode might take it where you want to go.

Others have commented on the rhythm. I agree it needs to change up a bit more but it might be too much if you change up the rhythm and the mode.

I really really like the piece though the pace you set is very nice and it's textured to match.

Well that's my 3am advice. Do with it as you wish but please post you changes so we can hear what you've done.

[nunswithguns]

UBIK...now that’s a name I have not heard in a long time...

I gave you some advice about rhythm once...but that was a long time ago in a web forum far, far away... (and a different username)

I think you are trying to do too much with your songwriting. I think it’s very, very, very difficult to mix that dark brooding electronic production with a ‘traditional’ really rich chord and melodic structure.

To me this sort of style lends itself to a far more linear chorus, with less chords and a much more stripped back melody.

How about a simple, concise far less wordy chorus, something that changes the mood of the song by talking directly to the listener? Rather than trying to change the mood of the song with lotsa notes.

[Andreas G]

Hi, I think there are a lot of very tasteful parts in your work.
But to make them work together as a hole cool song, I fear you have to strip them down drastically.
For me the hookline is in the refrain but waiting 2:40 for the first refrain is just too long.
Soundwise I'd try to make it a tad fatter and rounder for that 70th style sound.

Good luck... Andreas

[KingUgly]

There are so many words in that first line of the chorus that the only way to go is to deliver them is in rapid-fire mode which comes off flat (melody-wise). You could try something similar like "Wherever you [may/shall/will] go", which would give you more space and you could play with the melody more. The music changes enough as it is, so don't make the lyrics/melody so different as well, it comes off as a different song. The 2nd line ("I will feel") is ok, could maybe use more melody on "feel" or more harmony there.

Alternative, more radical, idea: I really like that one pre-chorus part, the "Cause I only listen to the spaces in between." Maybe stretch that out and use it as the chorus? Not too wordy, it's a natural progression from the verse and it grooves. Good luck.

[deadhorses]

Just rewrite the bastard. I mean it can’t be that hard nowadays with the tools that are out there. In general it was very monotone sounding, no highs or lows. My suggestion; Change the loops , add appegiator synth when the chorus comes in, a female vocal might help. I did hear a few vocal pitches that were off… just rewrite it.

[abit]

UBIK,
I agree with U, U lost in the woods.

It happen. U're not the first one tho.
Especially when U imprisoning yourself too much
and as a result your making circles.

I think U have to get back a little to the real world.
Not to much, but just enough to get right result.

This is not one song here I can hear,
but 2 or 5 of them.

What I see here -
U think too much about technic of "how to".
Don't try too hard to thrill.
That harmony jump - well .. with this verse( which is good)
I probably wouldn't go there.
Go with nature - it is hardest thing turned out to be.


Because U're very smart guy and U have what to say(no kidding),
please don't try to say everything U know in this song - there are more of them coming.
Also leave ppl some space to read between your lines,
dive in the vibe of the music. Give them less info in the CH.
That's why I agree with Lucey statement on CH - one word/short phrase
as a sort of statement might do very well in this song.
Less verbal info in the CH, U did it in the V.

Let say....
Black-bird fly, into the light of a dark black night ..
--------------------------------
Let bird fly...

Lucey is mastering E, right?!
So he digs in different spot of the whole routine, and receive final mixes.
So his focus slightly different:

1.song - what is this.., about..,
2.mix-what need to be done to help that song.

Why I'm talking about Lucey (..?)
Coz ME 1st impression could be very much truthful.

Another trick in our life,
when we getting more mature we're understand more and think more,
and sometime it works against us.
Women btw is more natural with reflexes.
Also when we're teens it was just a fountain of ideas without any rights or wrongs.
Remember?!


Half of what I said might be a BS,
but may be something can help, I hope.

[funkynuts]

Cool track !

I agree with you that the chorus doesn,t seem quite right.

Perhaps a sparser backing and a simpler punchier more rythmic vocal line?

Maybe something more akin to the pre chorus backing wise?

Apart from that i,d love for your harmonies in the verse to develop a little more and go up a few more notes.

Top notch work throughout

[John Suitcase]

I like it ok through the verse, but the "never any where you will go-o" has to "go-o". The chorus is in another key, and it's not a natural move. So, to the listener, it sounds like "go-o" is a wrong note. The biggish "fall on me" part is not necessary at all, I don't think.

I'd chuck the choruses all the way, and try something that stays in the vibe of the song better. Or change the bassline to make the tonic work better.

It's always hard to give advice on a forum, but I think "go-o" is the weak spot. It's like a hook, but not a good one.

Not trying to be harsh, just what I'm hearing.

If you don't want to go big rock for the chorus, maybe try going small/intimate. Bring it up to a stop, then a solo, very upfront, vocal sings a line, and the verse groove comes back in.

Or you could go big rock, and keep your mellow vocal, but doubled with a loud scream/aggressive vocal way behind it (think NIN, or even Nirvana.)

Good luck!

[guerillamixer]

IMHO, the chorus only feels like a chorus after a few lines, no impact straight away, so I think I agree with the too many words opinions expressed so far. The melody feels a little flat, not pitchy but it seems to push the song down rather than lift it.

If you want the song to soar i think a real string arrangement could help, strings do that for me, but that of course requires other people...

Great sounding piece tho, I particularly dig the keys / atmos sounds

[fontenele]

Man,
First of all thoughtful songs are not my thing, so it was hard to me go thru the whole thing. I personally HATE long intros specially the padded dreaming sounds ones. So you poked me in the eye right there at the intro.

But I think the song is cool. I would definetly cut it smaller and more straight to the point. I think if you do it, the listener can feel like he got his shot of good music and he can go on with his life with that shot stoked in his head. Maybe I am too radio oriented, I really am. I recognize it. But it is also a personality thing. A slow and long track got to be AMAZING to grab me by the balls! So I can even go thought it.
The last slow song actually album that hooked me up was that blue portisheads DUMMY album. that was F********* AMAZING !!!!!!! AMAZING !!!

My preferences aside. I think the song concept is cool and it is well done. Something that would help is a more dramatic aproach to changes, maybe a little dirt, noises and filters. Overall more layers. A little more ellaboration.

Something that kind of annoyed me was the "ummmm" on the end of the verses parts. that really annoyed me. I dont want a male "ummmmming" in my ear unless he is got a very strong reason for it. Besides, It does not add anything and if it does not add dont use it, that is my approach. Or what i try to do. Even though everyone of us have as redundancies. That's when we need someone else opinions.

But man, I like the song. I think it could be better (shorter , more dramatic and ellaborated )

[abit]

Have 2add.
Sound quality isthumbsup

[docformat]

UBIK

I like your song...... there's a lot of ideas but I don't believe that there is too many. My suggestion is to record the song again with just guitar and vocals - this will allow you to analyse the song without being influenced by any other production decisions.

IMHO..... the song is fine but the production needs a bit of sparking up - particularly the drums, but how about changing the guitar sound, or adding a rhodes or wurlitzer sound during thr chorus as well. The drums definitely need to do something different, though. Good luck.

[djembeman]

OK, I would not change the arrangement or performances. I would, however:

1. Give me width in the choruses. Maybe a wet long verb? Ping-pong delay?
2. Take some low end out and add a touch of 8-10kHz on the harmony vox. Keep the focos on the main line this way, adding width with the harmonies.
3. Track another harmony track, even a double of the first harmony, and pan them out, swamp them in reverb / delay / Enigma!

-Damian

[Jose Mrochek]

Let it go... work on something else and come back later. These songs suck the crap out of you, not worth the headache.

[DirkB]

I can understand your frustration with it. I think the verse build up is very inviting and keeps me listening. It really gives this "sus4" type of chord feeling that needs to resclve (I don't know if I translated that correctly into english).

I was expecting the chorus to break out in a more energetic type of rock sound with powerfull drums, harmonies and higher pitched vocals....

Just my $0.02 of first impression.

Greetings,
Dirk