How does my first mastering attempt sound?

[dgcobb]

My girlfriend wrote and played this song, and I did the recording, mixing, and mastering. I write as well, just not on this song. I'm pretty new to all of this (just started learning how to record last spring), so I'm looking for some critique on the production please! Mainly, do you feel that this track is overproduced for what it is (acoustic)? i.e., did I go a little overboard with compression and getting the "studio volume"? For the record, this was recorded with a $100 Sterling ST51 condenser mic + DIY sound panels -> fire studio tube -> logic. Enjoy!

http://soundcloud.com/maggie-dylan/montana-sky

PS: If you listened to the other two songs on our sound cloud profile ("burn it down" is another one of her's, "raindrops" is one of mine ), you may notice a difference in quality. These were mixed / mastered a couple months ago before I honed my technique. "Montana Sky" is my most recent work. Thanks for any input!

[dgcobb]

84 views no reply? If anyone listened to the song just a quick opinion would be nice...

Thanks

[micahcore]

I'm no expert man, but it certainly pulled me in. The performance sounded authentic, intimate without being too "indie" sounding. I think you did an outstanding job with this recording! Especially with the gear you used, wow!
Look forward to hearing more from you both.

Made my night. Thanks for sharing!

[dgcobb]

thanks micah! You made my night with such a great compliment! There are two more songs on our soundcloud profile if you would like to hear a few more. As stated in my first post, the quality of those two is not quite as good because I didn't know how to mix / master back then. I did spend a lot of time with this recording, but I have to give a lot of credit to my girlfriend for being such an amazing singer / songwriter.

Any thoughts on the mix / master? Too much compression? Is this overproduced-sounding for an acoustic song?

[mikeg09]

Man that song was tight! I felt the emotion in it bro thats what music is about! You did a really good job for real! That microphone is perfect for her voice. I didnt think it was going to be that good since its only $100 dollars but dang that recording sounds pro! I listened to the other songs too I think you did really good on those as well!

Its obvious you know what your doing. Now I want to buy this microphone! Holy shyyt

[mikeg09]

I have also never herd of that preamp before. That mic with that preamp is a really good match man how did you figure out they would work so well together? Simply beautiful

[dgcobb]

thanks again for a great compliment! I knew there was some love in this place

The "preamp" is actually my interface. It's a 16 channel presonus interface, with two tube "super channels". It is also a fairly budget piece of equipment ($699 w/ cubase LE4 *I use Logic now), and I'm sure some audiophiles would snub their nose and say this is not a "real" tube preamp. However, I agree with you I think that it sounds pretty good! My only complaint is that the noise floor is a little high when trying to record some really soft fingerpicked acoustic guitar, so I may buy a quieter preamp for that specific application.

I was actually recommended the mic at guitar center haha, but apparently everyone agrees that it way outperforms it's $100 price tag. Also a great buy. However, I think a lot of the vocal quality is coming from my DIY sound panel set up. See this thread for pictures:

My DIY Portable Vocal Booth is Complete!
(I've been using the 3 panels w/ 1 on top configuration)

This allows me to capture a nice dry vocal track, and from there my signal chain is: noise gate -> de-esser -> EQ (low cut w/ slight boost at 1.5 kHz, I'm thinking of adding a little top end "air" as well) -> compressor to tame peaks -> compressor to thicken -> light chorus -> reverb. Of course I'm volume automating as well.

Thanks for the compliments! I'm really encouraged to record more of our stuff now! I also plan on remastering those other two songs. I'm sure you noticed that I snuck my mediocre voice in on the second verse of "raindrops". I wrote that one so I had to do it.....

[mikeg09]

Man thats whats up! That is a great buy! And it looks real nice too. Yea, the panels are the key man ever since I put mine up Ive never been happier. That is a nice chain! I would agree that if your going to make more acoustic material, A quieter preamp would be perfect.

I started a new song a couple days ago and man, running the vocals through a couple compressors instead of just one is way better. At least for me and what I do. The pros use multiple compressors for different things so it makes sense.

But yea, you guys need to make more songs they are really good! Im not just saying that, its the truth!

After listening to all three of the songs, I think "raindrops" needs to be re-mastered more than the other two. But I can see why you want to do both because "montana sky" does seem to sound more finished than "Burn It Down". If you could master "Raindrops" and "Burn It Down" to sound more like "Montana Sky", all three of those songs will be perfect.

Keep us posted on when you re-master them! Heck, PM me whenever you post them up!

[dgcobb]

thanks again! We have many more songs written, we just need to find the time to record them (I'm going to grad school for geology, she works 2 jobs). That's funny that you picked out "raindrops", because it was my first one recorded, and I completely agree with you. That song could sound twice as good re-mixed and mastered, and I plan on doing it soon, as well as "burn it down". If you're curious, Maggie plays piano on raindrops, and I play lead guitar on burn it down. So, we try to hop on each other's songs when we can

Oh and I definitely agree with you about two compressors. "Montana Sky" is the first time I did this and I think it made all the difference.

I will certainly keep you posted, it's good to have a sincere fan! Do you have any songs posted? I'd be curious to hear what you're recording as well

[mikeg09]

Thats the way to do it! You guys making music together and getting involved in eachothers songs is what will make them sound twice as good and have twice as much impact to not only you guys, but the listener as well.

One day I need to get a real instrument player to record lol. Im just using samples haha but I still put my magic on there during mixing.

Im going to listen to the songs again when I wake up to hear you guys on eachothers songs.

Oh and the technique that you put on Montana Sky is what you NEED to keep doing. Dont change it thinking that you can make it better. KEEP the same technique because I guarantee you, after you guys record and mix 10 more songs the same way, your going to go back and listen to Montana Sky and realize that your 10th song sounds better without even realizing that you were getting better. Let it come naturally. Dont try to force anything.



Im saying this because I just listened to Montana Sky again on my labtop speakers instead of the studio like before, and I could still feel the emotion. So what you are doing is RIGHT! Dont screw up the magic you got now like so many other people do with their music. I wanna hear more music like Montana Sky!!!! lol

Ite, well im finna pass out, talk to you soon man and once again, good job on the song and tell Maggie that she better not change her voice! That voice is amazing! When I feel something special in music, Its because I am right!!! Not trying to be cocky

[mikeg09]

Oh well I dont have anything posted right now but this song that Im working on now will be a song I post up. I will let you know when I do!

[aaronsmith]

very nice good singer

[dgcobb]

Thanks again guys.

That's good to know that it sounds good on your laptop as well as your studio monitors. That reassures me that the master was done somewhat correctly, in order for it to sound right on a variety of systems.

I will keep at it, and I'll make sure to pass on your compliments to maggie!

[micahcore]

I see you got some new replies! Glad to see everyone is in agreement that this is a stellar track

I used to use the firestudio tube as my interface and I never got anything to sound so good out of it. If you don't mind me asking, is this 24bit 96k or higher? What plug ins/out board gear are you using? Do you use the soundcard in the firestudio or are you getting your A/D conversion from a different source?

Just sounds so good!

[micahcore]

Originally Posted by dgcobb

Any thoughts on the mix / master? Too much compression? Is this overproduced-sounding for an acoustic song?

Artistically, I honestly think it's the perfect blend. Just enough compression to give it that professional polish, but I can still hear the humanity cutting through beautifully. The guitar wasn't played to absolute perfection creating some cool human tension to play off of.
Whatever processes you used, stick with that formula.
it sounds rich and full, yet still very intimate in my opinion. Just the best of both worlds, taking a real life occurence and enhancing it with the right touch of excitement and wonder, which I think is what good art is all about. You nailed it!

[dgcobb]

Thanks micah! I really appreciate the support.

I'm actually recording 24 bit 44.1k. I'm not sure why but universal control won't allow me to select anything higher than 44.1, and I've heard that it doesn't make much difference. I've also heard that you have to do something to bring it back down to 44.1? I'm overall a bit confused on this stuff, so I just stick with 44.1 haha.

Like I said, this is a pretty basic budget setup. I'm not using any outboard gear. Just Sterling Audio ST51 w/ DIY sound panels -> the tube channel of the Firestudio Tube -> Macbook Pro with Logic Pro 9 Studio. I guess I'm using the converter of the fire studio, b/c I'm not using anything else.... Once again I'm not too versed in all this stuff. What I spent most of my time learning was how to use Logic, and how to produce the vocals and acoustic guitar. Which I will gladly share with you! Keep in mind this may not be the most "professionally trained" way to do things, but it's what I came up with on my own and I think it works. Of course I read a lot on the internet and built from there.

I posted my vocal plugin chain in one of my previous posts, but here it is again, with some more details:

noise gate -> de-esser (I made this from a compressor) -> EQ (low cut w/ slight boost at 1.5 kHz) -> compressor to tame peaks (8:1 ratio, 4ms attack, gain reduction -3db only on peaks) -> compressor to thicken (2.5:1 ratio, 15ms attack, gain reduction bumping around -3db, with up to -8db on peaks) -> light chorus -> reverb. Of course I'm volume automating the vocal track as well. Now you know why I asked if there was too much compression! But I agree it still sounds pretty natural.

For my acoustic guitar:

I record two tracks simultaneously. One is the internal mic on the acoustic electric (which is a really nice Alvarez Yairi), and a second is the ST51 4 inches off fret 14. I also put two sound panels behind the player.

I then process these slightly differently. I EQ'd the ST51 track with a low cut, and another cut around 170hz to get rid of the boomyness. I also added some top end to open it up. I then ran it through a compressor (3:1 ratio, 30ms attack, gain reduction bumping around -3db, with the occasional peak around -5db).

For the internal mic, I just add a low cut EQ (it was brighter than the ST51 track). I add the same compressor, and I add a bit of reverb (only on this track). I do this because this track is cleaner and more snappy, so reverb doesn't wash it out like it does to the ST51 track. Finally, I pan the two left and right slightly, and it sounds great!

Keep in mind these are my new settings. Much improved over the settings for the other 2 songs on my profile.

On your comment about the "naturalness" of the guitar playing, a lot of flex time editing actually went into this. It was recorded to a metronome. I then went in and manually put each measure onto the beat. Sometimes I would make more detailed corrections if need be, but I found that tempo correction measure by measure allows for natural rhythmic fluctuations within each measure, but still keeps the song sounding professional and on tempo. Needless to say, this take A LOT OF TIME.

Sorry if that was more than you bargained for! You asked for details haha. I can't believe it takes that much work to make a simple acoustic track!!

[micahcore]

Originally Posted by dgcobb

I'm actually recording 24 bit 44.1k. I'm not sure why but universal control won't allow me to select anything higher than 44.1, and I've heard that it doesn't make much difference. I've also heard that you have to do something to bring it back down to 44.1? I'm overall a bit confused on this stuff, so I just stick with 44.1 haha.

If I'm not mistaken, changing your sample rate within logic should make the presonus mirror that sample rate in universal control.
To do that you would go:
Settings>audio>sample rate>choose 44.1k-96k

It's been argued both ways but I've heard that acoustic music such as your own can greatly benefit from a higher sample rate because of the subtle "highs" you hear in clearer definition. It's all relative to your signal chain and your skill though. What you do sounds great, maybe if you're feeling experimental give a higher sample rate a try, you never know.
You are right though, before it goes to disc it must be converted to 44.1 at 16 bit. No getting around that.

Originally Posted by dgcobb

I guess I'm using the converter of the fire studio, b/c I'm not using anything else.... Once again I'm not too versed in all this stuff.

Yes. You would be correct in assuming this
I wasn't sure if you were running all of this to an external soundcard in your computer.

Originally Posted by dgcobb

noise gate -> de-esser (I made this from a compressor)

Your explanation of the vocal chain was very helpful, thank you for writing all of that out! Could you explain the first part about the noise gate made of a compressor? Are you talking about side chaining?

Originally Posted by dgcobb

On your comment about the "naturalness" of the guitar playing, a lot of flex time editing actually went into this. It was recorded to a metronome. I then went in and manually put each measure onto the beat. Sometimes I would make more detailed corrections if need be, but I found that tempo correction measure by measure allows for natural rhythmic fluctuations within each measure, but still keeps the song sounding professional and on tempo. Needless to say, this take A LOT OF TIME.

I've been using logic pretty much everyday for about two years now and I'm just now discovering all the helpful options you have with flex time! It's an amazing tool! It is a lot of time cutting up all those pieces though. I've had some experience editing just terrible drum takes so I feel your pain!

Originally Posted by dgcobb

Sorry if that was more than you bargained for! You asked for details haha. I can't believe it takes that much work to make a simple acoustic track!!

Nah man, I love details. Keep em coming!

[mikeg09]

micahcore

Man dont ask the dude EVERYTHING about what he does! Lol. Its like you asking a magician to show you how he does his magic tricks.

I will agree though that the production is really good and the mixing is really good.
One thing I noticed about this new song im working on now is that tracking is as important if not more important than mixing. I tracked my vocals perfectly and I barley had to do anything for the vocals to cut nicely across the mix. Of corse im still going to start mixing today but you have to know your gear and how to get the most out of it.

People say the gear doesnt matter but to me, it really does. Thats why pros who have a lot of money always have many different mics, pres, comps, and eqs to choose from.

Gear can make your music sound ok and other gear can make your music sound amazing like the songs presented here depending on the performance and the tracking

I dont think people really take that into concideration.

[dgcobb]

Hey I've got no problem sharing my "tricks", lol if that's what you want to call my makeshift production skills. This stuff is all over the internet, that's where I got it from. I just like sharing how I do things, maybe with the hopes that someone will learn, or someone will point something out and teach me a better way!

As for the de-esser (you said noise gate but I said de-esser, I assume that's what you meant), I figured out how to do it from the video in this thread:

Logic Pro Help • View topic - Using the Logic Compressor as a De-Esser

Yes, it's side-chaining. Pretty simple and works great.

As for the gear, I also agree that tracking is really important. Even though my gear isn't the greatest, I think I am getting some really good raw vocal tracks from my DIY sound panel enclosure. It gets me a nice crisp dry track, and that's perfect to then add all those layers of production to.

* Oh, how do I go about converting it back to 44.1 if I record at 96k? Am I mistaken that I heard converting it back can cause issues? I have a vague memory of reading something like this....
Thanks

[micahcore]

@mikeg09

Most of my curiosity came from just being so impressed with the production based on his gear. I used to use the exact same preamps and DAW stock plugins and I was just in disbelief (and quite inspired) that he achieved such a great sound with them.
I typically record very loud and chaotic rock bands so I guess it's not a very good comparison anyway. Never the less, amazing tracks!

But you are certainly right, good tracking is the first step to a great mix. I'm learning that you can't rush any one step especially the source tones. Gotta work at it and get your instruments, amps, drums sounding great in the room, then you tweak a little but if you have to twist a knob more than a quarter turn to get your source to sound good thru your monitors, it's time to go back and move some mics, try a new amp tone, or maybe the room just isn't right. I'm learning that it all counts toward the end results.

Thanks for the link dgcobb, I will definitely check that out!
I've never had a problem converting down from 96 to 44.1 with logic.
Should be fine as long as you don't intend to bring the mixdown back to the same project once you've bounced it. I usually master at 96 and then convert it to 44.1 and dither at 16 bit all at once. I feel that has produced my best results.

[dgcobb]

thanks micah I will try recording at 96k now. My system can certainly handle it.

[micahcore]

Anytime man

[stagefright13]

Sounds very good I enjoyed it. Good work.

John

[dgcobb]

thanks stagefright. I just posted another newly mastered song on this forum, under the thread "My second mastering attempt!". This one has more layers and was fun to mix, please let me know what you think

[Melvin III]

Mix sounds damn good to me! I'm no expert but it sounds as if she's performing in front of me I love it but you made the magic happen mixing it's so smooth but yet still has dynamics great job

[dgcobb]

thanks! I hope I captured that on the second song I just posted as well

[trustsound]

Sorry if I'm stepping on toes here I didn't read every response but this track desperately needs a de-esser

[mikeg09]

Originally Posted by trustsound

Sorry if I'm stepping on toes here I didn't read every response but this track desperately needs a de-esser

So your implying that he put a de-esser on the master?

[dgcobb]

There is a de-esser on the vocals. I created it from a side-chained compressor and fine tuned it correctly. If it still sounds bad, it's possible that there was too much ess in the vocal recording to begin with. Maybe I placed the pop-filter too close to the mic? I could go back and clamp down on the de-esser a bit more and see what that does, but it's a delicate thing to get it only pumping on the ess... I think this may be all I can do for it. Thanks for the constructive criticism though. How would you remedy this?

[tommyhayes31]

Really like it man, the track almost hugs you! Good job IMO!

Would you be kind enough to jump over to my track and give me your thoughts?

Listen to this track please! :)