Metal rock mix..

[jetboatguy]

I don't usually record bands this heavy, so go ahead and tear it apart boys and girls... it was for demo purposes

[Almost Human]

Something more my speed now compared to the norm...

I'll listen more in-depth later on. For a few quick comments...the first thing that strikes me is the low end. The kick sounds like it needs a lot more definition in it. Doens't have to be "clicky" per se, but right now it sounds pretty undefined and very "boomy."

Everything seems to have a "depth" that I don't normally associate with this type of music. The instruments seem pretty distant at times, where as the drums on most modern recordings of this nature tend to be a little more "in your face," close mic'd sounding. The guitars sound like they have plenty of attack and bite, but they lack a little thickness throughout and sound kind of thin.

That's notable things on the first listen. Overall, you did a pretty good job on it... thumbsup

[jetboatguy]

I'm guilty... I like depth, but that depth is mostly due to the huge room with mics I'm tracking drums/guitars in... most of this recording was tracked on a 1/2" Fostex Analog 16 track.... bass and vocal tracks recorded on my DAW...and later mixed on Sonar.

And I've never been a big fan of the close mic'd sound that many modern recordings have today... my philosophy, let's hear the space you're in... even if it's metal, it can still be mixed with this character ! I want to hear the organic space that this music was humanly created in.

[True North]

Originally Posted by jetboatguy

I'm guilty... I like depth, but that depth is mostly due to the huge room with mics I'm tracking drums/guitars in... most of this recording was tracked on a 1/2" Fostex Analog 16 track.... bass and vocal tracks recorded on my DAW...and later mixed on Sonar.

And I've never been a big fan of the close mic'd sound that many modern recordings have today... my philosophy, let's hear the space you're in... even if it's metal, it can still be mixed with this character ! I want to hear the organic space that this music was humanly created in.

Not that it is right or wrong but the sound of the room strategy seems to be more of an approach more commonly found in Acoustic Jazz or Classical recording. That is mainly because Jazz and Classical are more heavily reliant upon balance between instruments while playing live. Rock music, in essence, is an illusion. Most rock musicians perform in environments which is hevaily fortified with some sort of sound reinforcement system - Rock is generally not an acoustic music form and is therefore not reliant upon the same types skils used in Jazz or classical performances.

What people typically here at a rock performance quite often bears no resemblance to the actual acoustic balance of the various instruments on stage. This is my long winded way of saying I don't think your approach will work for this Genre of music you displayed here. It may work for a specific instrument, let say drums for instance, many Zeppelin drum sounds worked with only 3 mics. But contemporary rock music is generally not meant to be captured or recorded in the manner you have chosen.

Another point to consider is that when people who want to listen to this type of music they will be comparing it to what they know or have heard before. This is a hugely significant departure from what most fans of heavier music are familiar with. Human nature is generally adverse to major change so I don't know if you are doing the band any favours by representing their material in this manner.

The other problem is that your organic space sounds like a rehearsal space..........down the hall.

I am not saying that you shouldn't take the approach you are taking it just needs a lot more development and experimentation if you are going to make it work for this type of music. Good luck and thanks for sharing your music with us.

[jetboatguy]

Well... you guys are the metal fans...I'll split the difference ... I'll see if I can get a less jazzy mix on the go... with a more in your face mix approach.... I have this option, cause I also tracked with close mics on everything... I'm not a total greehorn at this recording game.

[djui5]

I think the drum thing would be cool in the intro, but when the band kicks in it should go. Also, the vox need to be right in your face, and the guitars have too much verb and low end. The top end of the guitars is a little weak also. Not sure if you can fix this.

Easy with the delay and big verb effects. It's ok to use them once in a while if the rest of the mix is pretty dry for what your doing.

What are you mixing this on?

[Almost Human]

It's all good... I was just using other modern albums for a benchmark and comparison. If it's what the band wants, then who cares what others are doing? It's them who have to ultimately be happy with the recording... thumbsup

[jetboatguy]

Originally Posted by djui5

Easy with the delay and big verb effects.

what delay and big verb effects ?

it's all natural room picked up from the tracking space I'm in...?

Originally Posted by djui5

What are you mixing this on?

Sonar 2.2 with a UAD-1 plugin card

[djui5]

Jesus....

Where did you record this, in a warehouse? I heard that delay and though you stuck it on the vox. It pop's out more in places...


Now listening I can hear it everywhere...


Did you close mic anything? Or is it all room mics?

[jetboatguy]

Oooops, yes there's certainly some added verb on the vox... but drums/guitar are all room effect... and yes I do have close mics for the remix I'm workin' on.

Yes part of the studio is off of a warehouse... If I keep one of the doors open at the tracking area, sound bleeds into the warehouse into a alt room mic.

here's a pic of the storage area

[djui5]

That's the problem,

You need less Volvo in the mix!!




haha


look forward to the "remix".

[jetboatguy]

Ohhh I see... too much Volvo and not enough Corvette in the mix

yes the sound tends to change a bit, because of the storage... right now there's:

2 x S class Mercedes
1 x Fiberglass boat
1 x BMW 80's 5 series
1 x Mazda Miata
1 x 92 Golf
1 x Volvo 850 Turbo
1 x 90's Lincoln
1 x 74' Corvette

[jetboatguy]

Well, here's mix 2... take a listen

[djui5]

Chop shop?




That's better sounding. Now there's some boom in the kick, really low bass like 40hz or something.

The guitars could use a cut around 1-2K. They're biting.

Snare is funny sounding. Cut some 800hz-1.3K and boost some 5K. Whatever makes it crack more.

Vox is ok, could come up a db though.

Also, boost some 3K on the bass too, so you can hear it "growl".

OH, pan the guitars hard left and right, and compress them until they "tingle". They should do it when the comps keep them at the same exact volume. You might not need to compress them though, play with the volume until they tingle, and see if they stay that way. If so...they're fine without compression

[jetboatguy]

Thanx for your patience and have another listen... I've taken most of your these suggestions into consideration for the remixes... enjoy.


As far as doing a diservice to the band... I don't think so, this band had came off with an awful experience of recording with someone else at the time... and I didn't charge this band anything... my goal was to test drive the analog recorder I had just purchased and to submit these demos for provincial arts grants so we could do a full length album... but one of the guitarist got a job and moved away and then the band broke up.

[djui5]

Who said you did a dis-service to the band?

Vocals sound better.

No go compare this mix with the original one

[jetboatguy]

Originally Posted by djui5

Who said you did a dis-service to the band?

Vocals sound better.

No go compare this mix with the original one

Thanx djui5,

for mix #3 here is the run down of stuff I did:

I actually did exactly what you asked with the 2k in the guitars, cut (-1.5 db or so, with a wide Q) and some panning etc...
then lowered the BASS DI track a tad... and brought the bass amp mic track up a bit for that growl you describe.
and I also cheated a bit on the snare... I put a sample of a couple of snares with drumagog plugin to compliment the orignal snare track... it's blended low, but still gives that needed bite it lacked.
And the vocals are untouched... all the fixups above brought the vox out more in the mix



And I thank you True North for any suggestions that I implemented into my new mixes,

Originally Posted by True North

Another point to consider is that when people who want to listen to this type of music they will be comparing it to what they know or have heard before. This is a hugely significant departure from what most fans of heavier music are familiar with. Human nature is generally adverse to major change so I don't know if you are doing the band any favours by representing their material in this manner.

I guess when I asked for criticism, that opens up the floor for all sort of comments... and I guess my earlier dis-service comments may be a little misguided... but I just want to set the tone straight that this gig wasn't at all about 'take the money and run' scenario, with a 'my way or the highway' sort of attitude... quite the opposite for this band, and I always seem to learn as much from recording each artists that come through my doors as they do about the processs of recording... anyways, not trying to offend... just setting the record straight on how little was now at stake with me fiddling around with these mixes.

[True North]

Originally Posted by jetboatguy

Thanx djui5,

for mix #3 here is the run down of stuff I did:

I actually did exactly what you asked with the 2k in the guitars, cut (-1.5 db or so, with a wide Q) and some panning etc...
then lowered the BASS DI track a tad... and brought the bass amp mic track up a bit for that growl you describe.
and I also cheated a bit on the snare... I put a sample of a couple of snares with drumagog plugin to compliment the orignal snare track... it's blended low, but still gives that needed bite it lacked.
And the vocals are untouched... all the fixups above brought the vox out more in the mix



And I thank you True North for any suggestions that I implemented into my new mixes,




I guess when I asked for criticism, that opens up the floor for all sort of comments... and I guess my earlier dis-service comments may be a little misguided... but I just want to set the tone straight that this gig wasn't at all about 'take the money and run' scenario, with a 'my way or the highway' sort of attitude... quite the opposite for this band, and I always seem to learn as much from recording each artists that come through my doors as they do about the processs of recording... anyways, not trying to offend... just setting the record straight on how little was now at stake with me fiddling around with these mixes.

Hey, the mix sounds way better. I re-read my initial post and I must offer an apology for treating you like a 5 year old who just got their first home recording kit, I don't what the hell I was thinking when I wrote it Sorry about that, I honestly had good intentions. Come to think of it I don't actually think I offered any suggestions, but your mix sounds better nontheless - so good work and thanks for being a good sport! Cheers!

[jetboatguy]

Originally Posted by djui5

Chop shop?

Dangit !
You're on to me now...
the studio recording was just going to be a front for the shop, but now it seems I'm kinda hooked on mixing.

[jetboatguy]

So, what do you know ?

The new mixes inspired the bass player to redo his bass track over again.... here's mix #4

[Ahellam]

dig the song and the vibe...

couple things, I think the bass couple be compressed and brought up in the mix more. the vocals could be more up front as well.

there is conjestion in the highs... click from the kick, scratchiness of the guitars...
maybe some lowpass filters on those guys.

I think the drum space and roominess fits the genre. Sounds more like post hardcore/indie to me than metal. Doest sound like metal at all to me in fact.

[jetboatguy]

Ahellam

are commenting on mix #4 or mix #1 ?

[Ahellam]

mix 1

[john caldwell]

I'll differ with the concencus view. First the disclaimer: I don't care for metal usually, and I am by no means dialed in to what the artists are doing in this area for sales at this very moment. To that end, I think I might be a descent critic for a more overall perspective on the work as music.

Some of the heavy rock mixes posted here presently ( and in record stores) sound silly, contrived, and peripubescent to me. Your mix (#1 in OP) creates a space that permits the music to assume a believable and real quality. Some of the gutteral characteristics, that these days proudly poke the listener in the eye, take a back seat the band vibe in your mix, as I hear it. To me - again my opinion only - the comments that your mixes are overly wet are derived very much from the momentary mold of what is selling at this instant to metal music purchasers. In no way are such remarks disqualified; on the contrary - they're probably dead on target.

As one respondent put it above, your mixes may not remind buyers of material in the metal genre they're consuming at the moment. Why, then, would you not do well to offer them something different - material familiar in genre but in slightly unfamilair clothing? So I'll register my contrary vote by saying stick to mix #1, and suggest that you take the idea even further.

Best,

John-

[jetboatguy]

Originally Posted by Ahellam

mix 1

I'm a little confused by your comments of this mix... It just seems that you are echo'ing the same comments of problems I've ovbiously rectified along the way of this post

Have you actually listened to the evolution of all the mixes... right up to the present #4 mix ? If not... listen and see if this fixes the problems you mentioned about mix #1.

[Absolute]

I think you have to someway somehow suck the room out of those drums. They are just so boxy..even with the improvements you made..which are very good BTW

[sodiumcycle]

Originally Posted by jetboatguy

So, what do you know ?

The new mixes inspired the bass player to redo his bass track over again.... here's mix #4

I like the production a lot. It is pretty raw and I appreciate that the drums haven't been replaced with samples (much harder to mix metal with *real* drum sounds.)

Good mix! thumbsup

[xtremeparanoia]

Originally Posted by djui5

That's the problem,

You need less Volvo in the mix!!




haha


look forward to the "remix".

Thats about the funniest thing I've heard on this forum yet.

[xtremeparanoia]

I've finally had a chance to listen to mix #4, it's the only one I've heard yet. My first opinion is that this does not sound like a traditional metal mix. Not necessarily a bad thing. Judging from this song only, I really like what has been done on the mix. It has sort of a Saves the Day sort of a production feeling. Now I want to clarify that STD is not a metal band but rather a emo/screamo rock band, but I think that the sound that you got fits the band you recorded and that's what should matter.

My only points of criticism for you to think about. I think the bassist did a pretty good job of nailing his part, but there are a few parts where he gets slightly lost. Depending on how much you've compressed the bass already I would addd just a touch more to get the few wayward notes to come out. The snare sound doesn't sit well with me, I know that traditional metal needs a well compressed snare. This track however I think could do with a little less compression as the snare keeps sucking me away from the rest of the song.

Overall, I really love the job you've done so far. And while the band is not something I've never heard before I would definitely listen to them in the future.

[dimitvel]

Originally Posted by jetboatguy

So, what do you know ?

The new mixes inspired the bass player to redo his bass track over again.... here's mix #4

Hi,jetboatguy!
I've listened to all four tracks and I can say the most important problem (IMHO) is the balance between bass and kick. There is frequency problem there. If you boost some 3-6 kHz on kick and cut around 80, 160 and 400Hz on bass I think you'll get more balanced mix in the bottom. (Don't forget to find the proper level of them after that)
I've mastered #4 just for fun, and I can say that you are very close to the best job you can do with these tracks. So, keep going!

Regards