Check Out This Bass Sound

[numberforty1]

I find the bass the most difficult sound to get right. I can record the exact same bass with the exact same equipment and the same settings, and somehow get stunningly different sounds from day to day. I can't explain it.

What do you think of this sound? Its one of the less muddy ones I've been getting, but some days I just can't seem to get anything decent. This is an Ibanez SR400 recorded direct through a Fishman Bass Pre and an FMR RNP, and that's it. Completely dry as far as processing. Not an expensive bass, but not a piece of junk...but any bass players out there find that an $800 bass really records that much better than a $400? I've played nice basses and they haven't seemed any better. I feel like there is something in the recording or processing that I need to do better.

If this was your raw track, what would you do to it to get a better sound?

Cheers

[dasnub]

The best thing you can do to improve the sound is improve the performance. To be honest, it's not as tight as it needs to be to lock a song together in my opinion. Your tone is not all that bad.

When you go to mix it, be liberal with the high end. It sounds awful soloed that way, but you'll need it to get the bass to cut through the mix. The notes fill out the song, but the picking/finger sounds give it its groove.

[David Watts]

distortion is your friend.

[numberforty1]

Originally Posted by dasnub

The best thing you can do to improve the sound is improve the performance. To be honest, it's not as tight as it needs to be to lock a song together in my opinion. Your tone is not all that bad.

When you go to mix it, be liberal with the high end. It sounds awful soloed that way, but you'll need it to get the bass to cut through the mix. The notes fill out the song, but the picking/finger sounds give it its groove.

Well we weren't going for performance here, the whole issue is the tone. You don't think its that bad? I can punch the highs in it, the difficult thing is that I find myself wanting lows, mids, AND highs from the bass. Its such a difficult thing to get right.

[numberforty1]

Originally Posted by chickenlunch

distortion is your friend.

Got any suggestions?

[Animus]

Originally Posted by numberforty1

I find the bass the most difficult sound to get right. I can record the exact same bass with the exact same equipment and the same settings, and somehow get stunningly different sounds from day to day. I can't explain it.

What do you think of this sound? Its one of the less muddy ones I've been getting, but some days I just can't seem to get anything decent. This is an Ibanez SR400 recorded direct through a Fishman Bass Pre and an FMR RNP, and that's it. Completely dry as far as processing. Not an expensive bass, but not a piece of junk...but any bass players out there find that an $800 bass really records that much better than a $400? I've played nice basses and they haven't seemed any better. I feel like there is something in the recording or processing that I need to do better.

If this was your raw track, what would you do to it to get a better sound?

Cheers

you say that's dry? Something sounds kind of weird. Almost sounds like there's a boxy room tone in there.

[robertshaw]

honestly I don't know how anyone can say anything bad about that bass sound. Sure it may need some eq but it sounds fine . How does it work in the mix?

I think it sounds good. It may not work in the song but that's another story. As a far as the bass being a piece of junk.....
it's made out of the same wood and is a similar construction to other popular bolt on basses. Is this a maple body? maple neck? It will be thinner due to that. But this bass really doesn't sound thin to me

I think it sounds good...... But Id like to hear it in a mix and along with a kick drum before I would say something is wrong with it
or what needs to be changed if anything.. It may need some work in the low mids and a 100hz boost or whatever but without the rest of the song it's just speculation.

[Podgorny]

Originally Posted by numberforty1

Well we weren't going for performance here, the whole issue is the tone.

The two are one and the same.

[numberforty1]

Originally Posted by Animus

you say that's dry? Something sounds kind of weird. Almost sounds like there's a boxy room tone in there.

Nope.

[numberforty1]

Originally Posted by Podgorny

The two are one and the same.

Uh, yea, just like helpful information and nonsense one-liners...

?

[Billy Maddox]

Originally Posted by numberforty1

Uh, yea, just like helpful information and nonsense one-liners...

?

That is helpful information. Your tone quality is directly related to your performance quality. If you play sloppy your tone will sound sloppy. If you play tight your tone will sound tight.

[coyot]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

it's made out of the same wood and is a similar construction to other basses like fenders etc..... any bass or gtr with bolt on neck is going to sound thin.

WHAAAA?!?!
a fender jazz does NOT sound thin !
and woods obviously affect tone, but just because two instruments have the same wood doesn't mean they are in the same ballpark as each other.

[KAB]

Just my $.02, but the basic tone isn't all that bad. As has been said, a cleaner/tighter performance would serve to solidify things as well as subtly dampen overtones. Then, employ tasteful and well-chosen EQ to suit the song and arrangement, (if needed beyond the player's ability to coax tone), and you'd be well on your way.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by coyot

WHAAAA?!?!
a fender jazz does NOT sound thin !

it's all relative............

Originally Posted by coyot

and woods obviously affect tone

that's a given

Originally Posted by coyot

but just because two instruments have the same wood doesn't mean they are in the same ballpark as each other.

agreed, but if they have a similar shape/thickness, construction and similar pickups
they sure will be in the same ballpark. What else would make them differ?


the logo?


nah

[dasnub]

Originally Posted by numberforty1

Uh, yea, just like helpful information and nonsense one-liners...

?

I don't think anyone is trying to insult your playing. Its just that many of us have figured out (as you will) that learning the technique of playing evenly and consistently, as well as in time, will have the biggest impact on your bass tracks. I just hate to watch someone waste time thinking they can "fix it in the mix" when the issue is at the source. Your bass is plenty good enough to achieve good tone with... the distortion advice is good advice, by the way.

[AndyHD]

I think that is a great raw bass track, aside from the obvious timing issues ...

The reason I could see it being a problem to mix is because it has a lot of body; you've got a very broad frequency spectrum there with a lot of information - so your mix could have some masking issues.

If it were my track, as you requested, I'd do the following (if it was for a hard rock mix for example...)


Run it through a Decapitator and dial in a gruesome harmonic buffet, then roll everything back and make sure the sound isn't too wet. I'd probably have the tone bring a lot of the high mids forward.

I like to multiband comp my bass tracks, mostly to control the 180-250Hz area and stop rouge notes causing havoc. I also like to have a fast attack/release and high ratio on the sub 100Hz material. Anything above 1.7Khz-ish will have a slower attack to let the notes get some 'click' definition.

See how it sounds with your mix - you'll probably need to EQ, but make sure that you do this while you can still hear everything else. You'll dial in a tone that works with all of your instrumentation much faster.

Sometimes, if the track has guitars and bass that follow a very similar musical path, I'll send the guitars and bass together and run that through some kind of distortion too, and bring that up in the mix.

It's a hard nut to crack.

[coyot]

when i said wood affects tone, i was agreeing with you. to an extent....

BUT it seems like you were saying because something has the same wood and similar pickups to a great guitar then it is not a piece of junk.

i guarantee there are some guitars out there made out of beautiful pieces of mahogany with a pair of humbuckers that sound like a piece of junk and not like a les paul.

[Sk106]

I think this bass sound is quite good, for a raw natural bass. It all depends on what context it will be fitted into, of course, but this sounds pretty much what I would expect a decent bass to sound like right out of the DI box.

If anything, I might suggest a bit stronger playing (harder) to bring out the attack more. Playing harder might bring out unwanted sounds as well, so it's a balance. An amazing amount of bass players don't always realize that you don't only put your ringht hand finger on the string when you're about to play the note, but also as a damping effect which brings out much more definition from the bass. One might say the finger acts as a noisegate/expander, which increases the silence between the notes. Listening to this playing, you could try playing with a hair more damping with the right hand fingers. Also, try playing in different positions, towards the neck and towards the bridge and see if you can coax a sound out of the bass that you like better. A third option is playing position combined with which mics on the bass to use. Your recording sounds like it's the neck mic to me.

As for EQ I would first try lowering 5-6 db or so, and sweeping the frequency between 90-200 hz and see where it needs some, then half that attenuation @ 400 hz, to see how the bass reacts to changes there, and try pulling up quite a bit over 5000 hz, like 8-10 db, hoping it doesn't hiss to much.

[bkbirge]

As others have said it's the playing. Get it right at the fingers first. That is where the tone in your bass resides. Your playing will make far more difference in tone than any "bolt on" vs "neck through" BS.

Practical playing advice...
I'd say play more toward the neck and work on your fretting technique, too much fret clack and string noise, I can hear your fingers not fretting at the fret and not matching up with the plucking hand attack and release, that makes it sloppy, chokes the note, adds unwanted noise and kills your definition and tone. If you are a guitar player first you might like the sound of using a pick, especially with a P that's a classic sound and can give you better attack to help make up for lack of technique. Get it to where you don't feel a need to use compression unless as an effect. Aside from playing your pickup choices will have the most effect on tone...

Practical gear advice...
This track sounds like you have mostly the P pickup on with rotosounds. Blend in the jazz pickup to help get rid of some of that honk that the P makes, and check the tone within context of the track. A low-mid heavy P only sound may be what you want but you won't be able to tell unless you hear the rest of the instruments and the bridge jazz will give you definition (burp) while at the same time extending the bottom. A PJ such as you have is very versatile, it's what I've been playing for 25+ years and that sound is on countless records. If you are fighting heavy guitars you can make the bass standout with a touch of overdrive, sans amp is great for this or mic up a nice tube amp, even an old Fender Princeton (tube version) can do wonders. But all in all, you've got a very capable bass, the gear ain't the problem.

To whoever said a jazz bass sounds thin I have 2 words... Aston Barret.

[numberforty1]

Originally Posted by Billy Maddox

That is helpful information. Your tone quality is directly related to your performance quality. If you play sloppy your tone will sound sloppy. If you play tight your tone will sound tight.

Yes, but does that mean that you ignore all the settings on your bass and amp before you play? No. You make sure you have the right sound first. You know what I mean.

[numberforty1]

Originally Posted by dasnub

I don't think anyone is trying to insult your playing. Its just that many of us have figured out (as you will) that learning the technique of playing evenly and consistently, as well as in time, will have the biggest impact on your bass tracks. I just hate to watch someone waste time thinking they can "fix it in the mix" when the issue is at the source. Your bass is plenty good enough to achieve good tone with... the distortion advice is good advice, by the way.

Its just a clip done on the fly for the purpose of recording folks, you can insult the playing all you like! If you think the playing is the only thing required for better sound or tone, then that's all I need to know, which is basically that the sound is fine to you. I just don't think it sounds very upfront or clear.

[numberforty1]

Cool! Thanks for that.

Originally Posted by AndyHD

I think that is a great raw bass track, aside from the obvious timing issues ...

The reason I could see it being a problem to mix is because it has a lot of body; you've got a very broad frequency spectrum there with a lot of information - so your mix could have some masking issues.

If it were my track, as you requested, I'd do the following (if it was for a hard rock mix for example...)


Run it through a Decapitator and dial in a gruesome harmonic buffet, then roll everything back and make sure the sound isn't too wet. I'd probably have the tone bring a lot of the high mids forward.

I like to multiband comp my bass tracks, mostly to control the 180-250Hz area and stop rouge notes causing havoc. I also like to have a fast attack/release and high ratio on the sub 100Hz material. Anything above 1.7Khz-ish will have a slower attack to let the notes get some 'click' definition.

See how it sounds with your mix - you'll probably need to EQ, but make sure that you do this while you can still hear everything else. You'll dial in a tone that works with all of your instrumentation much faster.

Sometimes, if the track has guitars and bass that follow a very similar musical path, I'll send the guitars and bass together and run that through some kind of distortion too, and bring that up in the mix.

It's a hard nut to crack.

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by Billy Maddox

That is helpful information.

I can see where the guy would get frustrated with statements like "play better and your sound will improve".
It's like the countless responses such as "use your ears", or "get the sound right at the source".

Yes, those are valid suggestions, but they are also a given most of the time.
There is obviously good timing for those remarks, but time and again around here that's the ONLY response a question will get, and it's not good enough on a forum dedicated to recording gear.

I'm always a little suspect of users with low post counts who constantly spew the "use your ears" comments and make little other contributions to the forum.

It would be like joining a fishing forum and trying to sound like you know what you're talking about by replying "first you're going to want to go to a body of water......."

Sorry, if that's all you have to contribute, I'm not listening......

[funkmyer]

The tone is pretty decent for being unprocessed. It is very true that a lot of the tone comes from the player's fingers, so def keep that in mind. You might also want to blend a DI and mic'd bass amp as the amp can give the sound some more low midrange punch as well as some high frequency attack. Using a nice tube pre/di and not a sterile little DI box will do wonders for the sound too as well as slapping a nice SSL channel/compressor on there. I've gotten insanely chunky bass sounds with the following signal chain:

Fender P ('66 w/LaBella nylon flatwound strings) -> LA610 Mic Pre
-> Thru -> Tube bass combo amp -> AKG D12E -> Apogee Rosetta (Mic track)
-> Apogee Rosetta (DI track)

Good luck!

[Frisbieinstein]

Originally Posted by numberforty1

I find the bass the most difficult sound to get right. I can record the exact same bass with the exact same equipment and the same settings, and somehow get stunningly different sounds from day to day. I can't explain it.

What do you think of this sound? Its one of the less muddy ones I've been getting, but some days I just can't seem to get anything decent. This is an Ibanez SR400 recorded direct through a Fishman Bass Pre and an FMR RNP, and that's it. Completely dry as far as processing. Not an expensive bass, but not a piece of junk...but any bass players out there find that an $800 bass really records that much better than a $400? I've played nice basses and they haven't seemed any better. I feel like there is something in the recording or processing that I need to do better.

If this was your raw track, what would you do to it to get a better sound?

Cheers

I think the bass sounds OK. I don't know why you get different sounds from day to day.

Bass quality is largely unrelated to price. Also, how a bass sounds soloed doesn't have much to do with how it sounds in the mix. I believe that muddy is often good with a band. Clear sounding basses may not have enough guts.

You might try raising the action. I think that setup and strings are the two most important things in a solid body bass. Higher action gives a tight, punchy sound that you might like.

I'm tempted to go down to a store and buy the worst sounding bass there. It might be best for recording.

[numberforty1]

Good man, that's exactly right. The suggestion to "play good" is about as helpful as that to "record good". Especially when I explicitly stated that the playing is not what I'm concerned with here. It was just a convenient clip to use!

Originally Posted by soundrick

I can see where the guy would get frustrated with statements like "play better and your sound will improve".
It's like the countless responses such as "use your ears", or "get the sound right at the source".

Yes, those are valid suggestions, but they are also a given most of the time.
There is obviously good timing for those remarks, but time and again around here that's the ONLY response a question will get, and it's not good enough on a forum dedicated to recording gear.

I'm always a little suspect of users with low post counts who constantly spew the "use your ears" comments and make little other contributions to the forum.

It would be like joining a fishing forum and trying to sound like you know what you're talking about by replying "first you're going to want to go to a body of water......."

Sorry, if that's all you have to contribute, I'm not listening......

[Podgorny]

Originally Posted by soundrick

It would be like joining a fishing forum and trying to sound like you know what you're talking about by replying "first you're going to want to go to a body of water......."

Sorry, if that's all you have to contribute, I'm not listening......

In this case, the playing thing really IS true. And this is expert advice. I'm dead serious.

It can take years to realize just how true it is. A great performance yields great tone.

For example, listen to Motown records. If you ever get a chance to listen to the multitracks, sonically, these are not the best tracks ever recorded by a long shot. They did what they could with what they had - but performance wise, they are unparalleled.

[numberforty1]

Originally Posted by Podgorny

In this case, the playing thing really IS true. And this is expert advice. I'm dead serious.

It can take years to realize just how true it is. A great performance yields great tone.

For example, listen to Motown records. If you ever get a chance to listen to the multitracks, sonically, these are not the best tracks ever recorded by a long shot. They did what they could with what they had - but performance wise, they are unparalleled.

Yes, PERFORMANCE-WISE....which is not what this thread is about. So if MoTown guys had the chance to create tracks of better sonic quality, should they not have? This really isn't a difficult thing we are saying here. Everyone knows performance is more important than tone, you can let it go, we know. We're just not talking about it right now. Most threads on GS are about SOUND, not performance. Everyone knows that performance is more important. We're all just looking for the best recording chains and techniques to CAPTURE those performances. Really, this is pretty obvious. We all know better playing creates a better tone. Duh. We're just interested in what gives a great performance an even better tone.

[Rockshamrover]

That bass sounds good to me.

[Muser]

Any instrument alters tone by the way you play it.. That's the beauty.

I read daniel lanois saying that if he plugs a mike into a preamp on a recording session at any time, and it sounds great, He often records everything he can with that mike and doesn't turn it off. if He turned it off and plugged it all up the same the next day, His experience is, it won't sound the same.

if you want to contest this, please email him at

I'mdaniellanoisbutyou'renot@googlemail.com