help my alt-country mix, what do you hear?

[geizo94]

It's an alt country/sad bastard jam, along the lines of jason isbell/driveby truckers or whiskeytown. Didn't use auto tune so please excuse the pitchiness, but i think it fits the music. I'm pretty happy with this mix, but I know that it could be better. If you have a moment let me know what you think, and what could be better.

Also, and production notes would be greatly appreciated!


Gear:
Drums: 90's DW kit, zildjion platinum 18" crash, A custom 20 ride, new beat hats. AT4047's as over heads, 2 cascade fatheads as rooms, audix i5 and shure sm81 on snare, sennheiser e 602 on toms, shure beta 52 on kick. OH and rooms through focusrite red 1, all else through presonus M80 with ACP88.

Bass and electric guitar DI w/ modelers.

all else either at4050 with UA LA-610 or midi.

[john caldwell]

Really nice track. I really like the vocals. Mix points possibly worth considering:

1) The drums' sonic space is light years away from the vocal space. Probably a very deliberate choice on your part, but the result doesn't seem right for the track to me.

3) Independent of the above, I think you can do much better with your vocal reverb selection. The My Morning Jacket album called "Z" comes to mind as an example of conspicuous period-sounding plates that might work here. You've used enough reverb that I imagine your looking to have the vocal verb make a bit of a statement, so it worth choosing with care.

2) The male lead vocal EQ is scooped in the upper mids. It needs more 1.8K to 3K articulation, and possibly less 6-9k presence, in my mind.

Good work and I do enjoy the sensibility.

John-

[geizo94]

Originally Posted by john caldwell

Really nice track. I really like the vocals. Mix points possibly worth considering:

1) The drums' sonic space is light years away from the vocal space. Probably a very deliberate choice on your part, but the result doesn't seem right for the track to me.

3) Independent of the above, I think you can do much better with your vocal reverb selection. The My Morning Jacket album called "Z" comes to mind as an example of conspicuous period-sounding plates that might work here. You've used enough reverb that I imagine your looking to have the vocal verb make a bit of a statement, so it worth choosing with care.

2) The male lead vocal EQ is scooped in the upper mids. It needs more 1.8K to 3K articulation, and possibly less 6-9k presence, in my mind.

Good work and I do enjoy the sensibility.

John-

Sweet, thanks for the observations! If you don't mind me picking your brain a little; When you say the "drums' sonic space is light years away from the vocal space", are you referring to dry vs. wet reverb wise? If you were in my shoes would you try to make it sound like they're both coming from the same place?

Regarding the reverb, you hit the nail on the head with the "Z" reference. I don't have a huge selection in the way of reverbs (only digi AIR and d-verb), but i'll mess around with some plate settings as well as your eq note.


One of my biggest concerns with this track was the drum overheads. I'm really happy with the way they interact with the snare, but I'm think they might be a little too squashed for the cymbals. I think i might just have tired ears though. Anyone with some first impression-insight on the cymbals?

thanks for the notes, John!

[Bigpuppy]

Great song love the vibe.

The snare seems dominant especially in the low end, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 400hz. I would try to sweep out 4db to 6db and see what you think. It might help clear up the snare a bit and let it set in the mix a little better.

If you're happy with the vocal verb, I would consider mixing it a little less wet.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Sounds great, good mix...

If you would like to listen to one of my songs I would welcome any feedback:
New country song

[Jared1426]

I would make the vocal a little less wet, or at least use some pre-delay to separate the vocal a bit from the verb. Or, perhaps just turn down the late reflection of the verb. It sounds cool, but like someone else mentioned, it clashes with the sonic space of the drums. I also concur about the vocal eq, it could use a little more body. Otherwise, I think the song sounds really cool and has a nice chill vibe. I'd invest in a nice convolution reverb plugin too. I've noticed a HUGE difference in my mixes ever since I started using convolution reverbs.

[Quint]

Originally Posted by geizo94

It's an alt country/sad bastard jam, along the lines of jason isbell/driveby truckers or whiskeytown. Didn't use auto tune so please excuse the pitchiness, but i think it fits the music. I'm pretty happy with this mix, but I know that it could be better. If you have a moment let me know what you think, and what could be better.

Also, and production notes would be greatly appreciated!


Gear:
Drums: 90's DW kit, zildjion platinum 18" crash, A custom 20 ride, new beat hats. AT4047's as over heads, 2 cascade fatheads as rooms, audix i5 and shure sm81 on snare, sennheiser e 602 on toms, shure beta 52 on kick. OH and rooms through focusrite red 1, all else through presonus M80 with ACP88.

Bass and electric guitar DI w/ modelers.

all else either at4050 with UA LA-610 or midi.

I actually think that the production sounds pretty good. It kind of reminds me of "Cold Roses" from Ryan Adams. There's a similar vibe/sound going on in your song.

This is just my opinion so take it for whatever it's worth. The only thing that I might say is that, when they're present, the vocals provide a faux sense of depth/space in the drums and guitar tracks. The problem is that, when the vocals aren't there, everything else automatically appears more upfront (more upfront than I would have placed them anyway). As others have mentioned, I would increase the predelay to bring the vocals a little more upfront. At the same time I would add a little more reverb/delay to the drums and maybe guitars to keep the overall sense of ambience going (maybe bring your room mics up a little in the mix?). That way you don't have a loss of ambience whenever the vocals drop out.

Anyway, I'm only talking about real minor changes here. Maybe 10 to 20 msecs of predelay on the vocals and just a little more space on the drums. I think the the production actually sounds really great and think you did a great job.

By the way, what reverb/delays did you use on the various individual tracks/buses on this song? How high is the ceiling and how big is the room that you recorded this song in? Was this mixed ITB or OTB and what comps did you use?

[geizo94]

Originally Posted by Quint

I actually think that the production sounds pretty good. It kind of reminds me of "Cold Roses" from Ryan Adams. There's a similar vibe/sound going on in your song.

This is just my opinion so take it for whatever it's worth. The only thing that I might say is that, when they're present, the vocals provide a faux sense of depth/space in the drums and guitar tracks. The problem is that, when the vocals aren't there, everything else automatically appears more upfront (more upfront than I would have placed them anyway). As others have mentioned, I would increase the predelay to bring the vocals a little more upfront. At the same time I would add a little more reverb/delay to the drums and maybe guitars to keep the overall sense of ambience going (maybe bring your room mics up a little in the mix?). That way you don't have a loss of ambience whenever the vocals drop out.

Anyway, I'm only talking about real minor changes here. Maybe 10 to 20 msecs of predelay on the vocals and just a little more space on the drums. I think the the production actually sounds really great and think you did a great job.

By the way, what reverb/delays did you use on the various individual tracks/buses on this song? How high is the ceiling and how big is the room that you recorded this song in? Was this mixed ITB or OTB and what comps did you use?

Thank you guys for the great tips, I'm gonna do a remix tomorrow and I'll definitely be trying all of your ideas.

Quint: the room i used had 15' ceilings, and was about 20' by 30'. The one irritating thing about it is that it was designed in the 80's so it is as dead as can be. It has sound panels/bass traps covering 80% of the ceiling, defusers on every wall and carpeted floors, so I just decided to go for the super dead drum sound.

I don't have much in the way of cool plugins, so I ended up just using the Digi- D Verb on all the vocals (comes free with protools). I used the compressor on the ACP 88 very lightly on the drums as I was tracking (i'm very familiar with that comp, otherwise I would not compress during tracking), as well as the comp on my LA6-10 for the vocals. But other than those instances, the mix was completely ITB.
The plugin comps I used were: Massey CT4 for extra compression on vox. the digirack compresson/limiter on snare bottom, OH's, and ac-guitars. joemeek sc2 on kick.
the only delay in the mix was a little bit of the digirack mod delay II.

I also threw the massey tape head on the ac-guitars, kinda gave it a cool texture, real nice mids.

Anyway, thanks again for all the feed back! And by all means, keep it coming!

chris

[binarymilton]

Wow, that’s really beautifully mixed. The drums sound fantastic: exactly my kind of drum sound. Sounds like a Willie Mitchell production!

Just a couple of things:
the drum’s toms can either come down in volume 1dB or lose a bit of boom. One or the other.
the guitar chops on the chorus aren’t very clear to me, don’t stand out enough. They need a tiny bit of work. Either a different EQ (more top?), a bit less reverb, or a different reverb. They ought to stand out the way chops like that stand out on Al Green songs. The soloey bit of guitar right at the end is louder, but still not quite as clear as I’d like it to be (especially bearing in mind it’s single-note soloing, so it ought to be really perceptible)
I’d try seeing what distorting the organ sound sounds like. It sounds like a digital organ plug-in, and I think a bit of distortion might make it more Hammondy. I’d also pan it somewhere else - more towards the right. (Because when it’s playing at the same time as everything else, the centre of the mix sounds too cluttered to me)

But all of the above are tiny, minor details.

The one thing that really needs “fixing” is the lead vocal. A bit less reverb, like everyone else says. But more importantly, bring that vocal up in volume.

Try saving three different lead-vocal mixes, and A/B them over the next few days, all with the vocal up a dB or two: 1 with no reverb on at all, but a bit more compression; 1 using the same reverb, only just a little less; 1 with a short slap-back delay instead of reverb (ie the John Lennon/Marc Bolan vocal sound; you could treat yourself to a tiny lil’ bit of reverb on top of it as well if you wanted).

Hey, don't knock that dry room: it's given you a great sound!

[binarymilton]

oh, you asked specifically about the cymbals: they sound absolutely fine.

[marcreeves]

Do NOT change that snare! Whatever anyone says! It sounds gorgeous! The whole drum sound is brilliant, in fact. Artistically what you've done with the mix is fantastic, the song sounds sublime. There may be a few things mix wise that could be tweaked (in the end it's all subjective anyway), but it's really negligible, the vibe you have created is wonderful as it is, and that's down to the perfections, but more importantly the imperfections. I wouldn't change a thing. At first I thought maybe you could have eased off the reverb ever so slightly, but then I changed my mind. I think the amount is just right. What might be worth doing if you do want to make some adjustments, is just EQ the reverb slightly, taking off the low end and lower mids a little, just to give the reverb more clarity, without losing depth. Other than that, honestly, keep it as it is. You should be proud thumbsup

[chrisjones]

Am I really enjoying this?! Heck yeah! Great song and a beautiful mix! Drum sound is superb for this song... At first I wasn't sure about that vocal sound(reverb)... But leave it like that! The reverb really helps the mood/feeling of the song... Really beautiful...

[Quint]

Originally Posted by geizo94

Thank you guys for the great tips, I'm gonna do a remix tomorrow and I'll definitely be trying all of your ideas.

Quint: the room i used had 15' ceilings, and was about 20' by 30'. The one irritating thing about it is that it was designed in the 80's so it is as dead as can be. It has sound panels/bass traps covering 80% of the ceiling, defusers on every wall and carpeted floors, so I just decided to go for the super dead drum sound.

I don't have much in the way of cool plugins, so I ended up just using the Digi- D Verb on all the vocals (comes free with protools). I used the compressor on the ACP 88 very lightly on the drums as I was tracking (i'm very familiar with that comp, otherwise I would not compress during tracking), as well as the comp on my LA6-10 for the vocals. But other than those instances, the mix was completely ITB.
The plugin comps I used were: Massey CT4 for extra compression on vox. the digirack compresson/limiter on snare bottom, OH's, and ac-guitars. joemeek sc2 on kick.
the only delay in the mix was a little bit of the digirack mod delay II.

I also threw the massey tape head on the ac-guitars, kinda gave it a cool texture, real nice mids.

Anyway, thanks again for all the feed back! And by all means, keep it coming!

chris

Your description of your room explains a lot. Too bad it's that dry but, honestly, whatever artificial reverb you're using is getting the job done admirably. By the way, I agree with a previous posters observation of the MMJ type vocal reverb. I like how your vocal reverb sounds a lot and would only maybe change minor things. Even if left as is, I think this sounds quite good. Like I said, it reminds me a lot of Ryan Adam's "Cold Roses". Great vibe regardless of how it was done, especially now that I've been able to listen to it a few more times. Just for shits and giggles it would be interesting to hear just the naked drum tracks by themselves.

By the way, is this your band or someone you recorded?

[geizo94]

wow, thank you guys. I'm really humbled that you'd all give so much feedback. I think I'm going to mess with the lead vox verb and eq a little and maybe take a look at the organ.

quint: I actually don't have any verb on the drums at all, they're as dry as a bone. I'll do a naked drum mixdown and post it tonight.
it's actually just a solo project for me (hence the bad/boring drumming). I'm in an louder, indie/pop band and I decided that I wanted to do some mellow tracks on my own, hopefully a full ep in the near future.

thanks again to everyone!
chris

[7+1]

i love love love the drums... really great.. song reminds me of Neil Young vibe.. super cool..

maybe try a slap echo in replace of the huge verb... keep that voice up front more.. and maybe a little more bottom on the ac. gtrs... maybe around 80 hz.
they just seem so thin.. maybe just the main ryth gtr needs that..

very ethan john vibe.. or at least it could be..

nice work!!

[u b k]

AWESOME work. Tons of personality in the song, tons of vibe.

Nits? I hate to add to the chorus of folks complaining about the verb, but... it's too much of the wrong kind imo. I have nothing against big wet vocals, but generally that requires a real plate or akg spring to truly marry with the voice and melt into the atmosphere.

This one here, the verb is very artificial, too short, and honestly it distracts me, it prevents me from connecting with the vocals and the vocalist. Me, I wouldn't hesitate to pull them forward right up in my face with that amazing snare drum, because that's where I want her to be. The delivery is comforting and personal, to my thinking the production should match and amplify those qualities. What makes the verb extra out-of-place is that nothing else lives in it; as a result, the vocalist is detached from the music, and the production calls attention to itself rather than simply supporting the mood.

The guitars are lovely too, I'm gonna advocate that you be more assertive in automating them to come and go, and to interplay with the piano which also should come and go more. Be aware of when the song has micro-dynamics, small climaxes in the middle of sections and leading into new sections. Work these moments for all their worth using your automation, they create the kind of oceanic tidal drama that keeps a mix compelling for a lifetime.

It's a stunning piece, really. I wish I heard more work with this much integrity, you've done a good thing. And PLEASE don't wet the drums down or tweak them out, they so deliver the groove as they are. What you call 'boring' I call 'honest', maybe 'perfect'.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[Quint]

Originally Posted by u b k

AWESOME work. Tons of personality in the song, tons of vibe.

Nits? I hate to add to the chorus of folks complaining about the verb, but... it's too much of the wrong kind imo. I have nothing against big wet vocals, but generally that requires a real plate or akg spring to truly marry with the voice and melt into the atmosphere.

This one here, the verb is very artificial, too short, and honestly it distracts me, it prevents me from connecting with the vocals and the vocalist. Me, I wouldn't hesitate to pull them forward right up in my face with that amazing snare drum, because that's where I want her to be. The delivery is comforting and personal, to my thinking the production should match and amplify those qualities. What makes the verb extra out-of-place is that nothing else lives in it; as a result, the vocalist is detached from the music, and the production calls attention to itself rather than simply supporting the mood.

The guitars are lovely too, I'm gonna advocate that you be more assertive in automating them to come and go, and to interplay with the piano which also should come and go more. Be aware of when the song has micro-dynamics, small climaxes in the middle of sections and leading into new sections. Work these moments for all their worth using your automation, they create the kind of oceanic tidal drama that keeps a mix compelling for a lifetime.

It's a stunning piece, really. I wish I heard more work with this much integrity, you've done a good thing. And PLEASE don't wet the drums down or tweak them out, they so deliver the groove as they are. What you call 'boring' I call 'honest', maybe 'perfect'.


Gregory Scott - ubk

I would have added just a touch of extra room mics or short delay to the drums to help marry them to the vocals while also bringing the vocals a little more forward. Kind of a meet in the middle thing. I like the super wet vocals so I hate to see them go all together even if it's not a real plate. I just think there's room to compromise between the two while still maintaining the atmospheric vocals. But then I love MMJ so there's that. But to each their own. I'm a ***** for Ethan Johns production style so I immediately hear how this song would sound in that context. Either way, this song sounds great and is only missing a few minor tweaks. I agree whole heartedly on the vibe and personality aspects.

[geizo94]

so here's the drum track completely dry... well, I used some really slight compression on the way to the converter, but not much.

[marcreeves]

I honestly would really consider not changing a thing. It's never going to be perfect, and it sounds stunning as it is, so ask yourself, do you really think you can go further with it? or are you just looking for more changes to make. If it's the latter, then leave it as it is thumbsup

Regardless, do NOT change the drum sound. They sound absolutely brilliant, making them wet would be an absolute crime

And I wouldn't change the acoustic guitars either, as some are suggesting. In a poppy/country track like this, they don't need any real bottom end, the kick and bass are providing that, all you want from your acoustic guitar is for it to just neatly cut through with the percussive strumming sound, and that slight shimmery hi-mids/top end. Which is exactly what you've done, and it suits the track stylistically, so I wouldn't bother messing around with it.

The only thing I think it's worth you messing around with is the vox verb, but I would still maintain the stylistic choice you've made there. I would keep the same verb too, I think it sounds cool. I would just work on clearing it up a bit with some EQ, and maybe a gate also, to cut off some of the tail at the end of each vocal line might sound quite cool.

Anyway, when the EP's done, if you're going to be selling it, I want a copy! thumbsup

[marcreeves]

Honestly this track is so good, can't stop listening to it thumbsup

One thing I would do is maybe automate those quieter vocal lines, just bringing them up a half/1 db at the quieter points. I would bring the whole vocal track up maybe just 1-2db too, as I like the fact it's far back, but it could be ever so slightly louder. I don't know though, all these things im suggesting is just nitpicking, it really is a great track & mix!

[Alrod]

Just out of curiosity, what are the room dimensions for the the room that you recorded the drums in? What sound treatment (if any)? I love the rawness of the drums!

Overall the song and performances are great! Here is my .02 on the technical side:

- Too much verb on the vocals. Plus the verb you are using doesn't do the vocals justice. If you don't have access to something like the Lexicon Native plug-in, I would try experimenting with delay.

- The snare is a bit boomy. I would cut the bottom 50 hz - 80 hz as a starting point.

- A little more compression on the bass guitar to make it pop out a little bit more. It needs a little punch. Maybe add a dash of distortion?

At any rate, that is what my lame ears tell me. The song is awesome!!!

[wildhoney]

Yes, LOVE the drum sound. esp the snare. Tell us more about the snare sound. drum, mic placement, eq, comp.

[mprewett]

Lovely song.

Can't believe nobody's said anything about how overwhelming the low end is here. Throw an HPF on the bass and drum tracks and see if things don't get better.

I'd bring the snappy electric on the prechorus up a bit to help separate it from snare.

Great, great song.

[geizo94]

alrod: I actually put the dimensions/treatment in a post above, I think it's 7th posts from the top. I'm actually really fond of the boomy-ness of the snare. I like when you can feel the snare in your chest, probably a little too much. haha.
Thats a great idea about adding a touch more compression, and maybe a little distortion to the bass. Thank you for you .02!

wild honey: the snare was one of those 70's ludwig brass snares, it was tuned real low. To the point where it kinda sounds trashy to the ear, but miced up it had a beautiful bottom end, with lots of that lovely snare rattle. Used an audix i5 on the top, and a shure sm 94 (not 81 as I previously mentioned, sorry) on the bottom. The i5 was placed about 1/2" in from the rim, pointed towards the center of the snare. The 94 was about 4" off the bottom head NOT pointed at the snares themselves.
I ran both channels through light compression (slightly heavier for the bottom head) on a presonus ACP88. I tracked the drums around 6 months ago, so I don't remember the exact settings on the ACP88.
In the mixing phase, when I decided to just go for a super dry drum sound, I ended up sidechaining the room mics (two cascade fatheads placed about cymbal level 10 feet away from the kit) to the snare.

I'll post a remix as soon as I have a few minutes. Thanks again for all the kind words. My confidence is growing exponentially!

[marcreeves]

Glad you're not changing the snare sound - anyone who says roll off that bottom end on the snare is just being silly; it's quite obviously an intentional feature piece, and it sounds wonderful & doesn't interfere with anything, so why change it? The whole mood of this track requires that dark drum sound, it really works thumbsup

And you should be confident! You are obviously very talented and creative. I don't know what you plan to do with this track and the album/ep it will be on, but you need to get it out there, as this really deserves to be heard!

[butterfly]

..........lovely sounding track, I'm in two minds about the verb on vox as whilst it makes the atmosphere of the track sometimes it makes the lyric a little indistinct, which is great by the waythumbsup

[chielio72]

Great work and nice recording .. my personal preference mix wise would be:
Vocals more upfront, they are kinda lost in the verb .. perhaps just take the direct leadvocal more upfront. (dry on top in the higher mid region)

The sound of the drums and bass are nice mid low, but the lead verb is also there .. that's the only thing kinda fighting for me.

Perhaps playing with the verb .. the hmmhmmhmmhmms leave it as is .. and the verses lead vocals more dry with a shorter room ambience.

[geizo94]

Originally Posted by butterfly

..........lovely sounding track, I'm in two minds about the verb on vox as whilst it makes the atmosphere of the track sometimes it makes the lyric a little indistinct, which is great by the waythumbsup

thanks for the input! Thats actually something I noticed listening in my car. I really proud of the lyrics, and I really want them to come through in the mix. I think I had a little bit of the "hearing my voice recorded" syndrome, so my first reaction was to kind of bury it in reverb. I've been experimenting with a slap back delay on the lead vox and I'm really liking it. I'll have some new mixes tomorrow.

[marcreeves]

Originally Posted by mprewett

Lovely song.

Can't believe nobody's said anything about how overwhelming the low end is here. Throw an HPF on the bass and drum tracks and see if things don't get better.

I'd bring the snappy electric on the prechorus up a bit to help separate it from snare.

Great, great song.

That's because the amount of low end is a stylistic choice that really works with the music and song. I have heard many mixes of similar music like this before. There's nothing problematic with the low end, eg boominess or resonance, so why does it need to be cut down on?

[binarymilton]

Originally Posted by marcreeves

That's because the amount of low end is a stylistic choice that really works with the music and song. I have heard many mixes of similar music like this before. There's nothing problematic with the low end, eg boominess or resonance, so why does it need to be cut down on?

Yeah, I mean people have already namechecked Ethan Johns in this thread - bass on some of his mixes is pretty big.

Ditto for Robert Carranza.

And those guys are always cited as exemplary. No-one ever says their mixes are bottom-heavy, they say warm, natural, analogue, tape etc etc

[geizo94]

I changed the vocal processing a little bit. I added a real quick stereo slap-back and pulled the verb way down, and changed it to a plate style. It kind of gives the lead a bit of a boxy/roomy sound, but I actually quite like it.
I also automated the lead vox and EQed it a little differently to give it more clarity. Boosted the hi mids around 500-700htz. what do you all think?