Fledgeling engineer would greatly appreciate any opinions on song, sounds and mix

[loosejaw]

Hi all , i am relativley new, and i just love it here...so sweet!

Anyways, this is my new band "Loosejaw"....... we are trying to put out a cool first release that sounds really great with a good vibe.

This was recorded to a otari 7800 1" 8 track with over dubs done thru an ad8000se... 3 good channels of pre an mp2nv and an avalon 737.
The drums were done with 3 mic's.....2 stereo akg tLll's and a d112 kick mic, the only other mic used was a beta 58 for guitars and bass.
This was mixed in the box with some wave plugins out of a dac 1 back to hardrive, the sent for mastering.

To gain every egde we had it mastered by Joao Carvahlo here in canada.

although nothing can be changed at this point, i would love any comments from my fellow engineers and musicians on the song, the sounds and the mix....all critique's and advice to help for better mixes and sounds would be greatly appreciated

thankyou for your time thumbsup

L.J.

[loosejaw]

shoot, i actually lied, i forgot on this tune i mic'd the snare as well with a sm-57 the most overated piece of gear since the beginning of time ;-)

[djui5]

great song!

I love the drum room sound, but feel it's lacking some punch and other things.

I think I'm good with everything else. There's a little smudging around the lower mid range area, but whatever.

[smk]

The harmonies seem loud in some areas and in others it's too soft, I think. Which pre did you use on the lead vocal?

[loosejaw]

hey thanks for your comments, i used the avalon 737 on all vocals for some reason

[Jose Mrochek]

I love the general sound, feel, style.. I think song structure is a mess though, (don´t know if this is for Radio) I think this is a great example of how good parts not put together well can ruin a ¨could be hit song¨.

Beware i´m very pop oriented.

For example (hypnotic robot minds part) should go in :53 .. whatever is there now has no relation with anything else happening elsewhere and totally looses momentum. (I change the dial on my radio station right there) You only have 1 verse that I can recall (melodycaly) very anti-pop. Why not repeat the verse melody again ?? ¨just got back what I have lost¨.. after the chorus, or ¨hypnotic robot minds¨part.

Please don´t get me wrong, you have everything it takes.. but seriously pay more attention to song structure if you want to hit radio or tv.

(i´m not on billboard either so don´t listen to me) but at least give it some thought : )

[Henchman]

Well, I think the mix is just OK. The drums, even though only using limited mics, could sound better.
I also think the song structure could use some work as well.

[loosejaw]

thankyou all for taking the time , i really appreciate all the input, we know the arrangments are "different", but to be honest , thats what we are after, not really writing for the radio, just want to put out something that sounds different and has a good vibe, speaking of the drums, there was a comment that the drums could have been better, i am sure they could of...............i would love some specifics, so that i could maybe try to achieve that next time :-)

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by loosejaw

there was a comment that the drums could have been better, i am sure they could of...............i would love some specifics, so that i could maybe try to achieve that next time :-)

They just sound too washed out.
I've done 3 mic drum recordings, and they can sound better.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by loosejaw

thankyou all for taking the time , i really appreciate all the input, we know the arrangments are "different", but to be honest , thats what we are after, not really writing for the radio, just want to put out something that sounds different and has a good vibe, speaking of the drums, there was a comment that the drums could have been better, i am sure they could of...............i would love some specifics, so that i could maybe try to achieve that next time :-)

By the way arrangements are awesome! The concept, is great.. I personaly dig it very much. It´s just structure that throws me off. Radio or not, Pink Floyd had a great sense of structure even if it was a 30 minute inprov type like echoes.

Everything fell into place very NATURALLY. That is what I don´t feel in this song.

[loosejaw]

Originally Posted by Henchman

They just sound too washed out.
I've done 3 mic drum recordings, and they can sound better.

no doubt, is there anyway for you to tell what washed out my drums, do you think it is a mix thing(eq and Comp) or do u think it was something earlier like mic placement or room, or did i hit tape tooo hard...i really like to push the meters :-)

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by loosejaw

no doubt, is there anyway for you to tell what washed out my drums, do you think it is a mix thing(eq and Comp) or do u think it was something earlier like mic placement or room, or did i hit tape tooo hard...i really like to push the meters :-)

Not without hearing the raw tracks.

[loosejaw]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

By the way arrangements are awesome! The concept, is great.. I personaly dig it very much. It´s just structure that throws me off. Radio or not, Pink Floyd had a great sense of structure even if it was a 30 minute inprov type like echoes.

Everything fell into place very NATURALLY. That is what I don´t feel in this song.

thankyou so much for your comments...i think you are right, we could have structured things differenly so that it would be more appealing to more people, for some reason we are in this head space where for the most part, once we do a part in a song, we dont go back to it, unless we find a way to change how it happens or sounds.... until youn mentioned it, i never really realized that that may throw people off, and will definatley keep it in mind when structuring new songs.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by loosejaw

thankyou so much for your comments...i think you are right, we could have structured things differenly so that it would be more appealing to more people, for some reason we are in this head space where for the most part, once we do a part in a song, we dont go back to it, unless we find a way to change how it happens or sounds.... until youn mentioned it, i never really realized that that may throw people off, and will definatley keep it in mind when structuring new songs.

I´ve gone through so many critics of my own stuff man it´s not even funny. Consequently I have grown a fear of the listener or audience. I always put listener first. Always trying to make songs that move me, but I give the end listener more importance, always. What I have learned is that song structure is more important than melody and lyrics. (ofcourse if the other two are not total crap). But song structure makes it or breaks it man. I don´t know what music you like to listen to, but listen to songs from a structure point of view. Beatles where king. (like in other things) I enjoy discussing these topics because they are far far far more important than getting a better drum sound in my opinion.

And also, I´m telling you all this not only because I like the subject .. but because I think you have a kick ass band with lots of future!

[loosejaw]

And also, I´m telling you all this not only because I like the subject .. but because I think you have a kick ass band with lots of future![/QUOTE]

thanks for the great advice, and thankyou for the compliment on our band, this kinda stuff really fuels the fire

L.J.

[Andreas G]

I like your song and its vibe very much! For me the song transports a kind of special emotion... that's where a lot of high polished "radio ready" mixes often sucks! I'm very curious about your bass sound, it has such a fine ambience around I really like it. Would you like to share how that was done?

So all I can say is: keep your cool vibe up, you are a real band... one can hear that

Andreas

[loosejaw]

I'm very curious about your bass sound, it has such a fine ambience around I really like it. Would you like to share how that was done?


Andreas[/QUOTE]

Thankyou so much for your kind encouraging words...we are really excited about this record :-)

as far as letting you in on my bass path...You bet...i played a 1978 american Fender P-bass, loaded with active emg pickups into a hiwatt custom 100 tube head, with a traynor 15" bass cab...I mic'd the cab in a close mic technique with a shure beta 58, the pre was the avalon 737, i hit tape next..HARD, meters in the red the whole way) an older orari 7800 8 track 1' machine was used for the beds(this machine is really warm full and quiet)
In the mix, i dont think i tovhed it with eq or comprssion, as we liked the source sound, and got udles of tape compression...fwiw, we thought it was a really cool bass vibe too, thats why it is so big it the mix...sounds good, so we turned it up

L.J.

[Andreas G]

Cool, you did it just the old way... thanks for sharing

Andreas

[alnico]

I like this tune very much! When I hear this I don't wanna think about the mix. It's a f'in cool song as it is! Not every song has to be a pop arrangement. These days radio listeners are "trained" to hear and expect certain song formulas which is just annoying and predictable after awhile. HYPNOTIC is the operative word here. The fact that a huge guitar chorus never happens is what leaves me wanting to hear it more. The drums are nice and roomy- maybe just a bit more of the snare mic sizzle in the mix would be nice... Yeah it could be "improved" technically and blah, blah but why... I just realized the song reminds me somewhat of one of my favorite bands: Elefant!!!! Keep up the good work my friend!! "Fledgling" hardly describes the sound your work. Your band is cool!!! thumbsup

[norman_nomad]

I love it.... I think this is a really cool song, and I'm not too inclined to nit pick the production.

Are you guys fans of the band "Failure" by chance?

[alnico]

Failure kicks ass!!!!

[loosejaw]

Hey thanks guys, its really nice to hear things like this from your peers, especially, when you all seem to like the song enough that you dont even care "that" much about the mix, it seems like we are accomplishing just what we set out to do...I have heard a few tunes by Failure, but am not familiar with alot of there stuff.

[pixelhead]

I dig it. sounds great, I would not touch a thing. I like the edgy drum sound and like it was said before the song is so cool I forgot about the mix. Which means it all works. Great job!

[pomoone]

Wow, cool song, one of the best I have heard in here so far. Felt like I was listening to the FALL.

I listened on the laptop so I cant coment to much on the mix but I can hear everything clearly on the smalls :-)

Continue tweaking till you are satisfied, dont over think the mix, you will loose the rawness if you overthink it.

Dont overthink the knobs. Let the music dictate the mix. Listen to Death Cabn for cutie, Bloc Party or Nada Surf. If someone posted a "work in progress" on them people would chime in on some half dB step change on some random eq that was never used.

Its about capturing the moment more then anything else.

[eyesore]

Originally Posted by alnico

Yeah it could be "improved" technically and blah, blah but why..

Because he said he wants to become a better engineer.

_____________________

I first listened to this in mono, probably because I usually mix mostly that way, and I didn't think that intro sounded too good. I couldn't tell what it was supposed to be actually. But then later when I listened in stereo, I found that that is the coolest part of the 'song'. That's usually how it seems to be unfortunately - effects that sound the coolest in stereo usually fall apart in mono. I know that how important mono compatibilty is these days is debatable, but it's an observation I had and something to consider.

The next thing that bugged me was those drum hits that come in as accents. I hear a 'fuzzy' sounding distortion in them. I don't know if this is a result of you hitting tape too hard (since I've never had the opportunity to use tape) or if it occurred in mastering or what. I suggest you ask Henchman if he'd listen to your raw drum tracks and see if he can then tell you more also.

I don't like parts of the vocal at the beginning. It sounds strained like the guy is trying to get below the range he is comfortable with. I like the part and it is probably the most interesting vocal part in the song, but would probably have benefited by being sung by someone with a lower voice. The vocalist almost sounds like he is making fun of his singing ability there. I like the backups that come in there though.

The worst thing in the song in my opinion is the pause at the end of the first section before the little single note thing. This throws the tempo of the song off and breaks things up and makes this seem more like different ideas pasted together. Actually just cutting ~840 ms or so out of there so that you end up with just 1 full measure between sections, seems to do a lot for creating some cohesiveness. I like the single note thing but the way it is now it makes it seem kinda 'goofy'.

The voices in the background at the beginning are cool.

I agree with the posters who were unhappy with the song structure also. A good arrangement is achieved when you find a good balance between the new and the familiar(topic of one my songs). At first you keep introducing part after part without reprising any of them. I know you already discussed that. BUT then when we finally get to the part that contains the hook, then the song basically keeps doing the same thing and things swing the other way. It's a good memorable hook, however. To me this piece seems almost more like a jam where the band was trying out some different ideas, which they would then go back to and hone into a finished song.

I also agree with the people who mentioned getting the drums punchier and cleaning out the lower mids more.

Thanks.

[dreamless]

Sounds fine to me. The bass is the best.