Your Criticism Sought

[john caldwell]

Anything you'd like to offer here. This is a project started some years ago but my collaborator and I are hard at work trying to get this record into some sort of shape for release. Much of this tracked years ago, when when working less experience and less ambitious gear. This is one of the more stripped-down pieces titled In That Field.

Thanks,

John Caldwell

[scruffydog]

Not bad....but

Much too slow..drummer plays like he is about to fall asleep or die!
Pick up the tempo!Drums are too quiet .

Singer is trying to sound like someone but is not good enough to pull it off...so stop straining and just be natural ... it will work better.

Need more snap in those acoustics...sounds so uncertain like no one is sure how the tune goes..
lyrics..well i was not drawn to listen to the end..spent more time writing this than listening! intro was too long and lyrics need more standout moments...never heard a chorus sooo..

I know i am being ultra negative but this is so you have some real things to think on and decide for yourselves..but you are gonna need a tractor to get this one anywhere at all!!
scruffy

[john caldwell]

Thanks for your remarks, Scruffy. The acoustic guitars are too tentative; I agree that they need to be cleaned up and defined. Thanks for the thoughts regarding tempo and lack of interest as well. Great to access to these kinds of perspectives.

Best,

John-

[dim light]

I think it sounds good, the strings are a little 2 dimensional or maybe a cent to high in the mix or two near the middle, it takes some attention away from the vocals.

I like the recording, everything sounds sweet like Cardigans Nina’s face.


What medium was this recorded on and please give some insight on the mics and all the studio goodies, thanks!

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by dim light

...the strings are a little 2 dimensional or maybe a cent to high in the mix or two near the middle, it takes some attention away from the vocals.

Yes, I'm concerned about the cello competing with the voice. I'd like to offer equal billing to the cello on this song as that would be the only example of that on the record, but better separation might be done with a wider pan. Do you think the cello harmony layers should be panned differently from the main cello voice? Is the 2 dimensional quality you refer to something you'd handle with different processing or in some other way?

What medium was this recorded on and please give some insight on the mics and all the studio goodies, thanks!

All recorded directly to Pro Tools. Reverbs are Waves IR on cello, Lexicon PCM 91 on voice. Converters were Lucid 8824 clocked by Nanosyncs. Front end gear used reflected what was available at different stages in my studio - 1998 and now. From memory:

Done around 1998:
Voice Gefell UM92s > Art Pro Channel
Drums
Kick D112 > True Systems Precision 8
Snare Top SM57 > Precison 8
Snare Bottom Oktava MC012 > Precison 8
Toms MD421 > Precison 8
Overheads KM184 > TAB Funkenwerk V72

Nylon Guitar Gefell UM92s > Art Pro Channel
Steel String Guitar Beyer M160 > Art Pro Channel

Recently Recorded:
Cello M149 > Avalon 2022 > Distressor on low right f-hole; KM184 > UA 6176 on mid fingerboard
Upright Bass M149 > Avalon 2022 > Distressor on lower right f-hole; KM184 > Avalon 2022 > Distressor at nut pointing toward body.

I'd like to retrack voice and guitars, but will likely leave song tempo unchanged.

Thanks for your interest.

John-

[dim light]

Thanks for the info!

Is this mixed ITB?

No ideas concerning the strings - Try different pan.

I like the sound from the Gefell UM92s.

Good work!

[john caldwell]

Yes, ITB mix. Will explore pan on the cello.

Thanks,

John

[dim light]

Damn impressive man, I usually hear the ITB sound but this sounds mighty fine.

[Black Dog]

Hi mate, had this on repeat for a while now. I really like it. The vocal thing - first i must stress I dooo like the vocals. My point is - what I pick up on is somebody who is not quite the finished article he is going to become in a couple of years. But that is not a bad thing and a s a singer (loosely) myself I understand the road is always under construction. I am trying to be positive here honest. I think what I'm trying to say is I like what your doing, I like where your coming from and I like where your going to.

Have you listened to any 'Low' albums they use cellos and things quite nicely.

Good work my friend.

Keep it up.

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

... what I pick up on is somebody who is not quite the finished article he is going to become in a couple of years....

Thanks for the comments, Black Dog. When you speak of having not reached what he will become at some future date, do you mean as a singer? Or do you mean in some way evoked by the song lyric, unrelated to singing per se?

Have you listened to any 'Low' albums they use cellos and things quite nice.

Yes, I'm a big believer in the Low band. Alan Sparhawk and partner Mimi put on a great show if you ever have a chance to take one in. Beautiful sense of harmony, texture and space. Mimi's voice is frankly arresting in person.

Best,

John-

[GYMusic]

Hello John.

I like the song. I feel it could use a little kick in the butt at the second verse and at the bridge.

With your permission, I'll provide a link to what I have in mind.

GY

[dim light]

post it man... don't be shy!

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by GYMusic

Hello John.

I like the song. I feel it could use a little kick in the butt at the second verse and at the bridge.

With your permission, I'll provide a link to what I have in mind.

GY

Indeed, post it here unless there's some reason the reworked version can't upload. Let's all benefit from your ideas.

Thanks for the interest, GY.

John-

[GYMusic]

Great. I like the way your mix has the guitar and bass pushing on the "and" and causing some syncopation, but I think a straight playing acoustic down in the mix would help it move along and build at the second verse with a heavier 2 and 4 beat on the snare. I also threw in some slide tracks to give it a little tension. And, a doulbe-time bass at the bridge might help. This could be subtler than how I have it mixed.

I thought it might be interesting to fade in a sound effect of some kids laughing/playing at the very end.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res8dduc/Misc/InThatField.mp3

[john caldwell]

Will download and check this as soon as I get to the studio. Of course I, and hopefully others, will comment on your modifications.

I thank you for your participation here, GY.

John-

[john caldwell]

GY, you've added some very nice ideas here. Your 2nd chorus push, in particular, is appealing. Your slide work, and the transitions between phrases that the slide creates, is also nice. Some of the other elements are a little busier than I had in mind, but I'll keep listening.

Thanks for this contribution, GY.

John-

[GYMusic]

Originally Posted by john caldwell

GY, you've added some very nice ideas here. Your 2nd chorus push, in particular, is appealing. Your slide work, and the transitions between phrases that the slide creates, is also nice. Some of the other elements are a little busier than I had in mind, but I'll keep listening.

Thanks for this contribution, GY.

John-

You're welcome. Just trying to help. I like the song. Something similar to my ideas would make the song more interesting without being distracting. I'd love to hear it when it's final.

Good luck with it.

GY

[balkanboy]

It's easy... but might work!
I don't dislike it - I just think it needs work.
I personaly would change the drums for start. A bit more jazzy groove and things might start happening.
Check the celo tunning - it's out of tune on more than one occasion. Fix the eq on it too! With M 149 you got to do better than that?!
Vocal works for me.

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by balkanboy

With M 149 you got to do better than that?!

Is the cello too dark or woofy for you? What are you hearing specifically? It's pretty close to the sound of the cello in the room, but that doesn't mean much necessarily.

Thanks.

John-

[balkanboy]

Is the cello too dark or woofy for you? What are you hearing specifically? It's pretty close to the sound of the cello in the room, but that doesn't mean much necessarily.

Wouldn't say it's too dark. It lacks of acoustic. Very plastic sounding IMHO. Maybe it's the way it's played, instrument itself - mic. placement or unappropriate eq only.. More mono could work. Did you check the phase corelation?!

Good luck!

[pookyneenee]

Sounds great! Is there more songs from this collaboration? I would like to hear more to get a feel for your sound. The "idea" version has kind of a roy orbison effect for me...which could work BUT again, I have nothing to compare it to. You mentioned that this is the only song with cello...is that right?

Could you post more if you've got them...

I like the tempo of this songs and the drums are subtle and I, personally, think that is the best sound for this tune.

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by balkanboy

Wouldn't say it's too dark. It lacks of acoustic. Very plastic sounding IMHO. Maybe it's the way it's played, instrument itself - mic. placement or unappropriate eq only.. More mono could work. Did you check the phase corelation?!

Good luck!

I'll take another look at the two mics' phase relations. The KM184 at the fingerboard is not prominent in the final mix, so I'm doubtful that mic is at odds with the f-hole M149. I do wonder if the M149 was too close to the cello. Possible addiitonal reverb would bring out the acoustic component you refer to. If you have any other thoughts on cello sound, Balkanboy, let me know.

Thank you.

John-

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by pookyneenee

Sounds great! Is there more songs from this collaboration? I would like to hear more to get a feel for your sound. The "idea" version has kind of a roy orbison effect for me...which could work BUT again, I have nothing to compare it to. You mentioned that this is the only song with cello...is that right?

Could you post more if you've got them...

I like the tempo of this songs and the drums are subtle and I, personally, think that is the best sound for this tune.

I will post addiitonal pieces from this record. The other songs are notably larger, in terms of production value, and I need help with them as well. In comparison to much of the fine contemporary work shown here, this project is very low-key, and may seem lacking in energy.

Thanks for your interest, Pookyneenee.

John-

[R.B.]

John--Im new here--but here is my two cents anyway-----I like the song---in the beginning it sounds just a little too tentative as far as the guitar and the drums---sounds like you are going for that very laid back feel --but you dont quite catch it at the beginning---to me what it really needs as far as drums is that swooshy brush on snare Nora Jones vibe---close mic'd--(you know the sound)----and on vocals--I think that style would fit also---close miked breathy--it would help the vocal sound fuller also---I liked what was added as far as slide guitar----maybe not so bold sounding tho---it would help the song build.....

[klaukholm]

Like the creamy cello sound! I felt the cello was a little far to the left, but then again I kind of liked it. Cello could use a slightly wider and more consistant vibrato.
the upright sound is not so hot. I am thinking it is the player and the intrument, more than anything.
It needs more focus.
I hate to say it, but a pickup in the mix could help a lot. The strings sound old and/or the bassist is not pressing down the string entirely.
Listen to some Ray Brown (Oscar peterson - we get requests) that is a very useful sound for upright and was achieved with one mic only (I think).

I like the general sound of the recording.

good luck

kjetil

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

...I hate to say it, but a pickup in the mix could help a lot...kjetil

Thanks for your insights. What do you mean by pickup here?

John-

[klaukholm]

I was thinking an Underwood pickup if it will fit that bridge.
http://www.underwoodpickups.com/

It leans more towards an electric sound, but it is more focused and tends to solve issues with lesser basses. David Gage also makes a pickup that goes under the foot of the bridge. It is less focused, but gets good results without micing if you want a warmer acoustic sound (sounds good with a bow though given som EQ).
If you are dealing with a great player with a $20k+bass, mics will always sound better IMO, in a studio situation that is.

kjetil

[john caldwell]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

...
If you are dealing with a great player with a $20k+bass, mics will always sound better IMO, in a studio situation that is.

kjetil

I'll have to take credit for the loose bass here, I'm afraid. I have a lot of confidence in the player and his instrument, so I think the sound I got results from my inexperience. The room is nonrectangular but with a 7 foot 9 inch ceiling. The room is dead above 150 hz. His instrument was recorded with:

1) At low right f-hole at about 18": M149 in cardioid > Avalon 2022 > Distressor @ 3:1 medium attack and release, shaving 4db or less.

2) At nut pointing towards body: KM184 > Avalon 2022 > Distressor @ 3:1 medium attack and release, shaving 4db or less.

The mixed sound is made up 2/3 M149 and 1/3 KM184, and the sum is compressed with Ren Comp in Pro Tools, again taking about 4db but with longer release. There is some eq cut at 200Hz, and 3db shelf augmenting 3KHz and up. The raw tracks do not sound great to me as they are pretty loose.

Interestingly, I did also print his bridge piezo but I found it of no use. The piezo was even less tight, and it had less bottom than the 149 so I didn't use it. I had expected the bridge piezo to be the most authoritative of the three sources, with the deepest bottom and so on(but with also the other piezo HF characteristics that are less attractive), so I was surprised to not like it.

Anything you can add about my signal path or processing for bass or cello would be great.

Thanks for your involvement here, Kjetil and others.

John-

[klaukholm]

When you have a chance, try a mic in front of the bass aiming 2 inches above the bridge. You might find this to be more defined. The f hole has boomy characteristics that are hard to deal with.
the clearest signal from a bass is facing the top (the lid).
there is very little information in the sound in the neck to scroll area, and the sound that eminates from there is thin and to some extent boomy.

closing in on the right hand gives more finger sound (like classical gitar) if you need it.

Look up pictures of Ron Carter, Percy Heath, Ray Brown etc in sessions in the 60's. There are a lot of these pictures out there and the sound they got was often very very good. That type of micing went out of use because it lacked the ability to produce a lot of volume on stage and needed some degree of isolation from the band, but it is very useful for studio use.

Ask the LA guys what John Clayton and Mike Valerio do in studio with their basses.

kjetil

[john caldwell]

Excellent. Thank you, Kjetil.

John-