Production Critique: Demo

[awagner08]

Hey friends!

I've just finished tracking and preliminary mixing on the backing tracks of my band's new demo. I am very eager to read your criticisms of the production, hobbyists, semi-professionals, and true pros alike!

First, some background. The band plays Folk-Punk with an aggressive/vintage vibe. I recently heard of the band White Denim and love their sound. Here's a perfect example of the production quality I am aiming for: White Denim - Shake Shake Shake. I also dig that 60s garage sound found on the Nuggets compilations. Something like this: Syndicate of Sound: Hey Little Girl. So, luckily, I think I'm aiming for an attainable sound given my equipment.

Second, I'm open to your harshest critiques. I know I am an amateur using cheap gear, applying shallow skill, and appealing to almost no experience. I am young & ready to learn. I do, however, prefer specific advice. I have been around the gearslutz forums enough to have read most of the blanket advice given to newbs.

Third, I'll give you whatever you want. Want the busses printed & zipped? You got it! Want screen captures of each tracks's EQ curve? It's yours. Want pics of the recording space? You get the idea.

Finally, let's have some fun and help a guy out at the same time.

Okay, on the to meat.

• 8 tracks recorded in 24bit.

Drums

• Overheads: Oktava MK-012 in XY
  Overhead Treatment: EQ only.
• Snare (top): SM57
  Snare Treatment: EQ, gate, transient design, compression.
• Kick (port): Beta52
  Kick treatment: EQ, Transient design, low-level sine wave augmentation, saturation.
  Paralell compression on whole kit.

Bass

• Miked with generic dynamic, center speaker.
  Bass Treatment: Radical EQ, Sidechain compression w/ kick, transient design.

Guitar

• Direct Out of a Marshall JCM900 combo
  Guitar Treatment: Amplitube (cab only convolution), EQ, Send to filtered delay/verb panned hard left.

Here are some pix of my EQ settings:








Now here's the good stuff. The before & after Samples!

Raw tracks, leveled & panned only.
parachute_jouirnalists_raw_demo.mp3

Mixed tracks
parachute_journalists_demo1.mp3

And finally, a peek into my mixer board in Reaper:


Alright. This mix shows up on your doorstep in need of some TLC. What would you YOU do first? And then?

Really guys - I'm dying to learn from your skill. I'll be forever grateful to your generosity. Keep up the great work around here.

-Adam

[awagner08]

No thoughts? I understand, it's a bit daunting and tough to come up with advice for a demo this rough. If someone thinks of something that would help out this mix, please let me know!

[critza]

Originally Posted by awagner08

No thoughts? I understand, it's a bit daunting and tough to come up with advice for a demo this rough. If someone thinks of something that would help out this mix, please let me know!

You seem to have more skill than me, and i thought you did a good job on the mix. Keep it up!

[awagner08]

Hey, thanks crtiza, I really appreciate the reply! I'll do my best to keep up the work, but I hesitate to call it good. Sometime this week I hope to sit down for a fix-er-up session on this mix. More thoughts would definitely help!

[audiphreak]

I noticed from your eq snapshots. Rule of thumb is to never boost, only cut. I was the same when i was first starting out.

If you think about it, cutting is the same as boosting frequencies.

[lfranz5451]

Definitely pay some serious attention to the bass guitar....that came blaring through my speakers at a very irritating frequency..and someone mentioned never boost, only cut..thats half true. Usually you can attain the same effect from cutting a lower frequency which in turn pops out the high mid or high frequency..but when this isn't surgical enough by all means, boost. The only time boosting is NOT allowed is in mastering...what eq are you using on that bass? and what compressor...i'd try and squash it down a bit...something like a DISTRESSOR would hit that bass perfectly.

lfranz5451

[awagner08]

@lfranz5451
Oh no! I know I need to upgrade my monitors, but your comment makes my purchase all the more urgent; of all the frequency swaths, I'm most happy with those occupied by the bass guitar. It's some pretty extreme EQ, but to me it locks in with the drum kit & guitars like a notched key. The irritating frequency you heard was probably the huge boost around 600hz. I chose that boxy midrange to be the bass's powerzone. You've given me some good food for thought - thanks!
-Adam

[kodaz]

I'm not a mixing engineer, but +24 db of boost on that bass guitar seems ludicrousm esp at that freguency range and to my ears it's killing the punch of the kick drum.. Personally I would take all that low end out of bass guitar and make some room for the kick.. in fact I would be doing the opposite, i.e. boosting the kick at 50-60 Hz and carving some out of the bass in the same range

[awagner08]

Thanks Kodaz, I'll try that! The tracked Kick is pretty weak, so I was worried about emphasizing a turd. I'll try this out though, thanks!

[virtualsounds]

Well the song sounds like a nice demo of the 90's rocknroll punk basements.
What you need to change is EQ first of all! The rule is not about only cut or only boost. It depends on what you want to do. The rule is
1) when you want to change the character of your sound you boost
2) when you want to keep the character and just clear the mix you cut

In the first mix I feel that the sources are ok, so you should cut more than boost in this occasion.

If something needs way more fixing you should also think the prospect of triggering a sound..

Also work on the panning of the guitar and finally work more with the reverbs and the space of the song..

So try, more easy eq, best panning for guitar, less boomy bass, maybe trigger the snare or something.. work on the sound in general with small steps..

[awagner08]

@virtualsounds
Thanks for the response! I'm treating the mix I posted above as an experiment in finding frequencies & beginning again from scratch.

Last night I removed all insert EQs and effects and began again, using gentler EQ where I still felt it was necessary. I also made my gates a bit more accurate and aggressive to clear some of the sludge from the snare & kick tracks. I was very hesitant to augment the snare with a sample due to the "raw" attitude of the band, but I'll revisit the subject.

Remember that I'm aiming for a raw, lo-fi sound (compared to the amazing sheen of most work aimed for here) similar to the band White Denim, posted above.

Your help is really... well.. helping! Thanks!

[Sonic Julez]

Sorry. The only thing I could notice is that the bass guitar is out of tune. Which really hurts my ears, so I couldn't really listen any further. Is it intentional?

[lfranz5451]

what eq and compressors do you have available to you? any hardware? and if you're finding the bass pitchy and out of tune, make sure you get a copy of melodyne at this point.

lfranz5451

[awagner08]

I see what you mean about the bass. Will fix.
I've only got software EQ and compression available to me, but I don't see why I can't make it do the work if I ever figure how "what I'm doing".

Thanks for the help fellas. I'll post something new as things progress.

[systematika]

Originally Posted by awagner08

Hey friends!

I've just finished tracking and preliminary mixing on the backing tracks of my band's new demo. I am very eager to read your criticisms of the production, hobbyists, semi-professionals, and true pros alike!

First, some background. The band plays Folk-Punk with an aggressive/vintage vibe. I recently heard of the band White Denim and love their sound. Here's a perfect example of the production quality I am aiming for: White Denim - Shake Shake Shake. I also dig that 60s garage sound found on the Nuggets compilations. Something like this: Syndicate of Sound: Hey Little Girl. So, luckily, I think I'm aiming for an attainable sound given my equipment.

Second, I'm open to your harshest critiques. I know I am an amateur using cheap gear, applying shallow skill, and appealing to almost no experience. I am young & ready to learn. I do, however, prefer specific advice. I have been around the gearslutz forums enough to have read most of the blanket advice given to newbs.

Third, I'll give you whatever you want. Want the busses printed & zipped? You got it! Want screen captures of each tracks's EQ curve? It's yours. Want pics of the recording space? You get the idea.

Finally, let's have some fun and help a guy out at the same time.

Okay, on the to meat.

• 8 tracks recorded in 24bit.

Drums

• Overheads: Oktava MK-012 in XY
  Overhead Treatment: EQ only.
• Snare (top): SM57
  Snare Treatment: EQ, gate, transient design, compression.
• Kick (port): Beta52
  Kick treatment: EQ, Transient design, low-level sine wave augmentation, saturation.
  Paralell compression on whole kit.

Bass

• Miked with generic dynamic, center speaker.
  Bass Treatment: Radical EQ, Sidechain compression w/ kick, transient design.

Guitar

• Direct Out of a Marshall JCM900 combo
  Guitar Treatment: Amplitube (cab only convolution), EQ, Send to filtered delay/verb panned hard left.

Here are some pix of my EQ settings:
Attachment 145522

Attachment 145523

Attachment 145524

Attachment 145525

Now here's the good stuff. The before & after Samples!

Raw tracks, leveled & panned only.
Attachment 145526

Mixed tracks
Attachment 145527

And finally, a peek into my mixer board in Reaper:
Attachment 145528

Alright. This mix shows up on your doorstep in need of some TLC. What would you YOU do first? And then?

Really guys - I'm dying to learn from your skill. I'll be forever grateful to your generosity. Keep up the great work around here.

-Adam

If it was me... I'd turn the bass down just a few decibels, guitar down a few more beyond that. Lower the compression threshold on the kick drum, while not eating away at the sound of it with eq to give it room to breath. Snare sounds really boxy, could use a boost around 15k and get rid of that awful dip in the snare's freq range to give it some snap. Lower threshold on master compression as well. Use a spectrograph to help see frequencies that is normally not heard and hard to pinpoint to get rid of some of the mud and other flaws that you're looking for. Spectrographs really do make eqing easier and more accurate if you place judgement on it and your ears, and there are tons of free good spectrograph plugins out there so it's just something to have on hand along with a good 30 band accurate graphic equalizer. Don't be afraid to keep the 15k+ on the overall mix (also take note of other eq settings) to give it some polish, just don't throw it way up there. It just sounds kind of blanket-y, muddy, and boxy when everything is set like that. From the looks of it you're cutting the wanted stuff and boosting the unwanted stuff for sure. I'm not the type to go in and fix something with a bunch of eq, there's also not much going on to really validate the crazy eq settings. To be honest, I thought the raw track sounded better and more natural, it's just the levels were all off. Some things could've been cut here and there, drums really really need some punch, not squash but get them out there about 3-4 db over the instrumentation then go in with the comp to mess about with the dynamics. Pay more attention to your levels and get everything to good amplitude before going in with compression, and last eq to work out the bugs. Should make things sound a lot better.

[bkbirge]

I like it, sounds like an early 80's Midwest punk band recording in a lot of ways. Way too much compression on the bass though. I like the eq for the bass, especially since the bass is the only instrument doing anything that interesting, it should stand out. Ease off on the compression a bit, you can still make it pump and squish but this is excessive even for this genre. And yeah, though I like the bass a lot it can come down 3db or so. The guitars sound very weak and not trashy enough. All in all though sounds like a demo from the 80's played back on cassette which is very vibey and cool. If you can find them go listen to the Zero Boys, Toxic Reasons, or even early Sloppy Seconds for some of that sound, all produced by Paul Mahern.

[awagner08]

Dude, thanks for the references. I'll definitely check them out. Regarding compression on the bass - that's just how it came out of the amp and into the microphone - squashed! I could see that it didn't need any more compression on the insert level. I suppose it is getting hit pretty hard at the master limiter since it's so high in the mix. Still, you should see the original, dry waveform... it's a sausage. :-)

Thanks for the leveling & "big picture" tips!

[awagner08]

Hey fellas, here's a different song & updated mix. I changed:

Guitars. Double tracked 'em straight into the DAW. Used Vintage Amp room, some extra tube distortion, tape saturation, EQ.

Drums. Used sample replacement on the Kick & snare, but pretty low in the mix. Sent only the sampled snare to reverb.

Bass. Lowered level, eased off sub-bass EQ boost (as advised). Increased release time on sidechain compression with kick to give it a little more room.

Overall, I became less scared of using 10hz +

Very curious to read your thoughts! Myself, I think the guitars are a bit too high in the mix - especially when they first come in during both verses. The intro is unfinished, so that's the reason for the silly fade at the beginning. Writer's Block Demo.mp3

[Tony Ramone]

Just found this thread now.
I like the new song much better. I don't see it mentioned anywhere, so maybe it's just me, but the first 2 mixes seemed to have almost nothing on the left side - it was all centre and right, but the new song has the guitars filled out much better (IMHO), and the bass isn't nearly as distracting
Also, check out This Bike is a Pipe Bomb - good folky stuff

[awagner08]

Hey Tony,
Sorry for the extra late response (I hope that's not against forum etiquette) - but just wanted to thank you for your thoughts. I agree.

To update ya, we completely re-tracked the demo after I got an M-Audio 2626 with better preamps & 16 channels. In the meantime I built 32 4" GOBOs, so the sound was dramatically improved overall at the tracking stage.

I'm a fan of This Bike is Pipe Bomb. OT: Actually, Dave Dondero is headlining an Art Film & Music festival I'm deeply involved in: wmcfest.com - very excited to meet Dave!

[Tony Ramone]

hey, no problem dude I don't come on here that often myself.
sounds interesting - I'd love to hear the new version.
that's cool about the fest, man. hope it all goes well

[Sonic Julez]

Much better indeed! You're a quick study!

[awagner08]

Thanks guys,
I'll post the new version here in the next week. I've been working on other projects instead of our own album.

[jbr101]

It sounds like you're well on your way.

I realize that you're still in the recording/mixing process rather than final product so I'll try too keep it relevant to what you have going on for the first song (not the second one).

Guitars
I see where you're going with it, however, they could be better, the stuff is there, just gotta find it. Judging from the EQ you posted and what I was hearing, the guitars are sounding like cardboard. There's a reason. You've got 1 to 2k boosted pretty heavily, which gives a kind squeakiness and cardboardy sound to the guitars. What you're probably looking for is further down in the 400 to 900 Hz range. You're going to need to some EQ sweeps to figure out where the good stuff is hanging out.

Just so you know, I used to think that simply adding a bit of 3.5k gave clarity and cutting here smoothed things out, (which it does) and WAS ALL I needed to do. I'll tell ya this: I was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The best stuff is in the 400 to 900 range. That's really where you should be spending time. Once you get that worked out, the top end will really fix itself. No lie. Yeah, there's some work you'll need to do, but it won't be nearly as much. Seriously, spend some time in the basement. Basement Cat needs company. Seriously though, the meat of your guitars hang out here and so should you.

Really watch your 6k range (especially when you get to leads). You can wind up in super-headache territory faster than you can say "Holy crispy guitars, Batman!". Since I've done it, you don't need to (not saying you are, just putting up a marker for you)

Bass

You're doing the same thing that I used to do. Cranking up 2-3k and bottom end below 90 Hz. Bass doesn't work that way (or so I've found). The good stuff for bass hangs out between 150 to 800 or 900 Hz. You can really "dig in" into your bass sound and get it to thump or smooth it out with this stuff. Yep, you're going to need to play around with the stuff up top, but seriously though, work out that range and you will find that you get a much better bass sound.

Drums

I didn't hear much of the kick at all so can't really talk about that much. The snare sounds like a 57 at 12 o'clock and is super low in the mix. I'll bet ya that there's some snap in the snare when you're in the room with it. May want to pull it up in the mix a bit and see what's there. The over heads (which seem to be the majority of the drum mix) are pretty solid, you may want to pull them down a bit. Also, flip the phase on one of the and see if that doesn't open up the sound. It might, it might not. Try it and see what happens. Coincidentally, you might want to try flipping phase on the snare and kick (one at a time) and see if the helps bring them out.

To conclude: everything you're going to need for final mix seems to be there (the only caveat here is the drums - again, it seemed to rely heavily on the overheads).

Now that you're done reading all of this, get back to work!!! We want updates with HUGE guitars and drums that will eat entire countries! No, we don't care about the bass, only bass players care about the bass guitar! (j/k but still KINDA true)