Losing perspective - Rock mix

[funkdrmr]

Would love a critique from any of you that has time to take a listen.

This is a new song from my band 'Stillborn Skies'.

http://www.stillbornskies.com/pre_demo/frayed_mix3.mp3

Listening back now, it sounds to me like I need to check my release times on the overhead compression, especially when I'm riding on the crashes (I'm the drummer). Would love some feedback on that.

Sorry the performance isn't extremely tight. We wrote and recorded this song after playing it about 10 times over the course of 3 weeks.......bass player was leaving town and we wanted to lay it down with him.

Sorry...enough rambling. Any feedback on the mix would really be appreciated.

Thanks!

[tazman]

The only comment I have is that the guitar solo at 4:15-4:30 is out of tune. If it is meant that way, it still sounds out of tune.

[beef]

I think it sounds cool, maybe work some on the guitar to get it more in the mix.

[gregohb]

my opinion :

- this arrangement is pretty wild and chaotic
- the slow down part 2/3 of the way is a bit bizarre, but the new arrangement from that point with the more sparse guitars sounds way better and more interesting than the first 2/3
- the snare pokes out too much in the beginning
- can't really hear the bass very well
- guitar tone is nothing to write home about. maybe the guitar could be doubled with another version with more mid's and low's to give it more thickness
- vocal needs to be treated more - same for backups
- i would say the vocals are the best part of this song
- guitar needs to be lowered in volume under the vocals
- song is not very interesting. consider some chord changes or key changes rather than umpteen guitar riffs. 8 run of the mill ideas don't outway 2 good ideas.
- guitar solos not very special either
- i would rethink this whole song and redo it. it needs better ideas, more consistency, and more variety harmonically. maybe try recording it with acoustic guitar and vocal to start. I would use that stacato riff after the "slow down" as a verse riff, then crank it up for the chorus. Try double tracking a vocal harmony or changing the chords in one part or another.

Sorry not to be more positive, but those are my constructive criticisms.

[funkdrmr]

Wow...thanks everyone for the constructive criticism.

I just got to work...going to work on it some more when I get home this afternoon.

I really appreciate the input so far...hope I get more!

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by gregohb

my opinion :

- this arrangement is pretty wild and chaotic
- the slow down part 2/3 of the way is a bit bizarre, but the new arrangement from that point with the more sparse guitars sounds way better and more interesting than the first 2/3
- the snare pokes out too much in the beginning
- can't really hear the bass very well
- guitar tone is nothing to write home about. maybe the guitar could be doubled with another version with more mid's and low's to give it more thickness
- vocal needs to be treated more - same for backups
- i would say the vocals are the best part of this song
- guitar needs to be lowered in volume under the vocals
- song is not very interesting. consider some chord changes or key changes rather than umpteen guitar riffs. 8 run of the mill ideas don't outway 2 good ideas.
- guitar solos not very special either
- i would rethink this whole song and redo it. it needs better ideas, more consistency, and more variety harmonically. maybe try recording it with acoustic guitar and vocal to start. I would use that stacato riff after the "slow down" as a verse riff, then crank it up for the chorus. Try double tracking a vocal harmony or changing the chords in one part or another.

Sorry not to be more positive, but those are my constructive criticisms.

I don't think this is contstructive...you obviously dislike everything about this piece of music.. I agree with the snare sound being a bit pokey....completely disagree with the doubling ideas...very boring....

....rethinking the song? well this is the song and obviously he has done a ton of work on it...this is sounding close to finished for the type of song that it is and where the OP is as an artist. How much more treatment or processing can this mix take. It already sounds a bit too processed to me....

...my suggestions would be a little less of the compressor plug on the snare (or change the attack /release to sound a little more natural), don't be afraid to raise the bass at least 3 db in this mix, ease up on the overheads a bit and don't use too much overall compression...spend another couple of hours on this and move on...you've done a good job. I really can't see how anything more than 4 hours of further work is gonna help this mix. It's done.

I can't stress enough how important it is that we all keep learning how to "finish" things

[funkdrmr]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I don't think this is contstructive...you obviously dislike everything about this piece of music.. I agree with the snare sound being a bit pokey....completely disagree with the doubling ideas...very boring....

....rethinking the song? well this is the song and obviously he has done a ton of work on it...this is sounding close to finished for the type of song that it is and where the OP is as an artist. How much more treatment or processing can this mix take. It already sounds a bit too processed to me....

...my suggestions would be a little less of the compressor plug on the snare (or change the attack /release to sound a little more natural), don't be afraid to raise the bass at least 3 db in this mix, ease up on the overheads a bit and don't use too much overall compression...spend another couple of hours on this and move on...you've done a good job. I really can't see how anything more than 4 hours of further work is gonna help this mix. It's done.

I can't stress enough how important it is that we all keep learning how to "finish" things

Thanks for these comments. I actually revisited the thread right now to address this.

I understand not everyone will like the song...it is fairly "progressive" in how it was written, I suppose. It's actually a little bit of a departure for us, as you can listen at MySpace.com - Stillborn Skies (is recording a new song) - Honolulu, Hawaii - Progressive / Rock / Indie - www.myspace.com/stillbornskies to 2 other songs we have.

We aren't going to re-think the song...in fact, we're quite happy with how it turned out as far as composition goes. I'm sure in 6 months or a year we'll re-record it with all the cool new ideas that come along from rehearsing and performing a song over time but for now the composition is complete.

That doesn't mean it's a hit, that doesn't mean it sucks.

I'll agree I think the guitars are a bit "gainy"...definitely my bad during the tracking phase in not toning that down a bit. If I want to be serious about engineering, I just need to deal with it and fix it at this point if I can. I feel that if I ever want to do this as a profession, I probably won't be so fortunate to have perfectly tracked songs in my hands for each project, so I should probably learn now on how to make it sound good...or at least better than anyone else that I know can.

Thanks for the snare comments. And for confirming the OH problem.

Could I please ask why anything more than 4 more hours won't help this mix? Is it that bad that I should think about pulling all the faders down and starting over? I'm not gonna lie...I've thought about that a few times in the last couple of days.

[funkdrmr]

Spend a little time after work today tweaking on it.

Fixed the OH compression problem. Tweaked the guitars ever so slightly, dialing back some of the higher frequencies.

I think I kept the synth way to loud in this one, so please ignore....I don't have time to bounce another one one 'till later tonight or tomorrow.

http://www.stillbornskies.com/pre_demo/frayed_mix4.mp3

Thanks again for all the input so far.

[gregohb]

I'm sorry if I seemed offensive. I was sincerely trying to help. I find that I have to be very honest with myself about what things work and what don't - because others will be so too. If you are happy with the tune, thats great.

As for the mix, again I would say that the vocals seem to be straining to be heard over the guitar in parts - maybe automate the levels for the guitar down, or duck them by using a side chain compressor plugin to lower the guitar when the vocal comes in.

can you eq that snare? at first I thought it was a high tom in fact. maybe layer a "smack" with it.

[funkdrmr]

No offense was taken.

I think the points being made were that I'm asking for input on the mix, not production or songwriting. I understand a song of this length and of this type of composition isn't for everyone, but it does have a solid place in our repertoir of 3-3:30 rock songs.

I'm not so jaded to think everyone is going to like the song. I'd love it if they did, but I'm really here because I love recording, I love mixing, and I truly appreciate the feedback I get from users on my mixing skills (or lack thereof!).

That being said, thanks for the input on vocal levels. I noticed a few of those spots this evening when listening in the car. My ears are worn out for tonight, so hopefully tomorrow afternoon I can hit that up & see where I'm sitting.

I WOULD like to ask about the snare comment (eq...sounds like a tom). I'm a little confused where that's coming from. I was really trying to go for a thick smacky sort of snare on this one. Sort of Breaking Benjamin type of snare drum, I guess. I'm probably not even close as I didn't use a reference when EQing anything on this song, but I really don't think it sounds like a tom!

The snare was a Ludwig Acrolite, SM57 on top > Chandler LTD-1 > 192i/o. It's augmented with a sample in this mix. Maybe I need to re-think the sample I'm using? I didn't MIND the original snare sound, it just didn't have that nice pop to it that the sample provides. Recording myself doesn't always give me a lot of leeway to get the same sounds as when I'm recording someone else. This was one of those times, unfortunately.

Maybe Steven Slate's library is in order!

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by gregohb

I'm sorry if I seemed offensive. I was sincerely trying to help. I find that I have to be very honest with myself about what things work and what don't - because others will be so too. If you are happy with the tune, thats great.

As for the mix, again I would say that the vocals seem to be straiing to be heard over the guitar in parts - maybe automate the levels for the guitar down, or duck them by using a side chain compressor plugin to lower the guitar when the vocal comes in.

can you eq that snare? at first I thought it was a high tom in fact. maybe layer a "smack" with it.

+1 and definitely constructive. The snare being EQed better would really benefit this mix, and maybe try paralell compressing it (a little "slingshot" effect from an 1176 or SSL on the comp track of at least -15 GR and fast attack and release times would achieve that) for some more pop. The overheads could use some "air". The mix does have a vibe, I like the basic elements of it. Good job!

[funkdrmr]

I'm feeling kind of embarassed, as a drummer, that my snare sound is getting slammed!

I took a listen before coming in to work, and I think I see where you guys are coming from. I'm gonna give it a shot this afternoon when I get back home.

I'm starting to like this parallel compression stuff. This is the first time I've ever used it. I'm parallel compressing the drum bus on the last 2 mixes and I LOVED what it did for the overall drum sound.

Hopefully can post back in about 8 hours with a new mix.

Thanks everyone for the input thus far. I really do appreciate it.

[finlove]

Think the vocals sound well placed,not my type of music...but the drums need lots of work I mean only in the production..the snare sounds awful no offence..maybe layer some drumagog samples over it...guitar needs a different sound...in different places,,,sounds too much modelled guitar amp pedal..hope i dont core across too critical,..

[Audio Hombre]

i liked the guitar tone in the intro but then it just doesn't seem to have enough roundness to hold down the track. sounds a little like a POD to me. more low mids and some gentle carve out of the high mids might be cool, like in the 2k range.

[funkdrmr]

Thanks, guys.

There are actually 2 rhythm tracks playing.

Both were JCM2000 with a Marshall 2x12 cab on a chair up off the floor.

SM57 >Chandler LTD-1 > 192 i/o
Royer121 > Chandler LTD-1 > 192 i/o

Room mic about 8 feet away
U87 omni pattern > Avalon 737 > 192 i/o

I really think we messed up on the guitars by not paying attention to how much gain we were set at. I think the last 2 guitar comments are hitting on that, which is great. I'm glad I already noticed it.

I feel I got the guitars CLOSE initially, then I had problems with them interfering with the vocals in the high-freq's ('cause of too much gain, probably?).

I feel I made some progress on that, but I agree they still aren't "round" or "ballsy" enough.

I'm learning a lot from you all and really appreciate it. I'm also learning that I was more used to my KRK RP8's than the piece of crap Roland monitors that I'm borrowing from a friend now. It's absolutely amazing to see what a difference monitors can make, even in that lower price range. This whole experience has got to be worth something to me, though, and I'm determined to overcome the issues and make it sound good. The entire way, I've felt like I'm fighting to get anywhere near where I want to be with the mix. It's definitely going slower than the last song I did.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by funkdrmr

Thanks, guys.

There are actually 2 rhythm tracks playing.

Both were JCM2000 with a Marshall 2x12 cab on a chair up off the floor.

SM57 >Chandler LTD-1 > 192 i/o
Royer121 > Chandler LTD-1 > 192 i/o

Room mic about 8 feet away
U87 omni pattern > Avalon 737 > 192 i/o

I really think we messed up on the guitars by not paying attention to how much gain we were set at. I think the last 2 guitar comments are hitting on that, which is great. I'm glad I already noticed it.

I feel I got the guitars CLOSE initially, then I had problems with them interfering with the vocals in the high-freq's ('cause of too much gain, probably?).

I feel I made some progress on that, but I agree they still aren't "round" or "ballsy" enough.

I'm learning a lot from you all and really appreciate it. I'm also learning that I was more used to my KRK RP8's than the piece of crap Roland monitors that I'm borrowing from a friend now. It's absolutely amazing to see what a difference monitors can make, even in that lower price range. This whole experience has got to be worth something to me, though, and I'm determined to overcome the issues and make it sound good. The entire way, I've felt like I'm fighting to get anywhere near where I want to be with the mix. It's definitely going slower than the last song I did.

Maybe try turning the master up, and the gain down. The JCM2000 doesn't exactly have the warmest front end. There is beauty and balls to be had by sagging out the trans a bit on a Marshall. It will definitely take out some of the "tin". It will also drive the room for the U87. It's not like you're not using good mics or chain! I almost forgot, monitoring and room acoustics/treatment are everything when you are mixing!!!! Find something you can trust.

[huarez]

I like the idea with bass following the melody harmonic of the rythm guitar and when afterwords it goes into strumming and the drums double the beat. This is a good basis so far. The best of the rest are the Vocals like already remarked by an other poster. The snare sound too bad to pop out so much, and I´m missing crack and air. Miking the bottom would be perhaps an idea. Maybe you can get the guitar more slamming using something like an 1176.

[nickynicknick]

Just for reference, i wasn't suggesting only four more hours mixing because I thought it was crappy...I'm just trying to rely that this song is what it is and you've done a good job...so finish it up and move forward...there does come a point when you start chasing your tail...I'm sure you have other music you want to work on and IMO you should be using your energy to keep moving forward. I was trying to be encouraging.

Nick

[funkdrmr]

Thanks, Nick.

I took it to be encouraging, so no harm done!

Hopefully will have a better mix up this weekend!

[allencollins]

Sounds nice and Punchy. good vocals. Vox a tiny bit too loud maybe tighten the threshold on the comp or whatever. I would beef up the bottom end on the drums. theyre not bad but a tad thin. Overall I think they sound real good.

I like that Iron Maiden part in the middle. That Van Halen slowed down tape thing is cool too

nice job

[gregohb]

As I said before, I think the vocals are the best part of this song, and they should be featured and upfront. I think they need a touch of magic (reverb, chorus, delay, exciter, etc... in tiny amounts).

Regarding the guitars, real Marshalls don't sound like "Marshalls" unless you crank the hell out of them. I too think the guitar should be beefier and thicker. I think you can simply double the guitar part with a lower thicker Creed-like sound. Maybe try a small delay too. You can get a thicker sound by turning the master to full, and preamp to a lower amount ... then use a powerbrake (or aviator jet enginge earmuffs). I did some experiments and the power tubes overcooked give a nicer sound than the preamp tubes you get from using the master volume low.

In a similar way, real drums often dont sound like real drums as we imagine them to be. I am no drummer but cant you tune it tighter a bit? Isn't the drum part a bit lacking in a strong backbeat too?

I do all kinds of styles of music, so its not a matter that I "dont get it" in regards to metal. In fact, I used to make songs somewhat like this in my younger years - a bit like Black Sabbath where a series of unconnected ideas are strung together - which may or may not work. I have come to really appreciate a well crafted series of changes - usually a nice bridge/mid8. From the beatles to mozart you can hear some very tasty songwriting where the parts all work together but also have variety and freshness. In fact, I think this is the most important part of the song in a sense - much more important a particular snare sound or guitar sound.

[funkdrmr]

I really appreciate all the feedback I received on the previous mixes.

Needless to say, I was a bit frustrated with the mix so I stepped away. I didn't realize it had been a month, but it has been.

Instead of mixing at home on my cubase / crappy roland monitors, I took everything to the studio I assist at and mixed there....faders down, fresh start.

Now, it's a small room, not treated very well, but it's PTHD-192i/o-HR824's and a nice assortment of plugins.

I spent 2 or 3 hours a week ago, then opened it up again today and really went at it for 4 more hours. I think I'm a bit happier with the bottom end on this mix compared to my last. Not muddy, but definitely more bottom and lower mids than my last mix had.

Anyways...whether it's good or not, I really appreciate all the input from anyone. Here's the link to the latest.

http://www.stillbornskies.com/pre_demo/frayedmix1.mp3

[Mho]

Much better now, I just didn´t love the harmonics at 0:25. Congrats!

[funkdrmr]

Thanks!

Do you think the harmonics were too loud or is it more that you didn't like the decision to have them in the mix at all?

[Mho]

Yes, I will mute them... Just my opinion but they sound out of place, like a fake coming from nowhere.

The rest is very good now, excellent vocals by the way!

[funkdrmr]

Thanks!

I really appreciate the compliments.

I might try and pull those harmonics down in the mix like the ones later in the mix are. I can see how the first ones sound out of place.

Any more feedback, anyone?!

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by funkdrmr

I think the points being made were that I'm asking for input on the mix, not production or songwriting.

Harsh reality time.

The production and songwriting are intertwined inexorably with the mix. Without good production, performance and songwriting... WHY BOTHER WITH A MIX?

Seriously.

You are NOT going to learn much, or get a good mix without tight performances. Why bother trying to mix an out-of-tune guitar? What's the point (unless you're being paid, even then... there's no real artistic point)?

Here's something I've found true: "fix it in the mix" is the rallying cry of mediocre engineers everywhere. Don't fix it in the mix--FIX IT RIGHT NOW!

In general I've found two types of mixing that are opposites to one another:

1.) REAL mixing--making it sound amazing.
2.) Turd polishing--trying to hide the fact that things suck.

These are NOT the same thing. You mix a properly played and recorded bass guitar differently than one that sucks. Granted, you might polish that turd and make it sound "okay", but let's face it--"okay" in the music biz might as well still be "sucking ass." There isn't much of a prize for second place.

This is real simple: the more of #1 and the less of #2 you have the better your end product is going to sound. Optimally, you don't want any of #2. Do you think the Chris Lord Alge's or Andy Wallace's of the world have to deal with a ton of turd polishing on their mix projects?

So, armed with this real world knowledge, you can do one of two things:

1.) Get to work, put the time in, and raise your standards when it comes to writing and performing.

-or-

2.) Keep trying to delude yourself that less-than-stellar tracks can be magically transformed in mixing to sound amazing. If that doesn't work, there's always the chance to "fix it in the master." Yeah....

Hope this sheds some light and helps you out.

[funkdrmr]

Thanks, James. I really do understand the concept and I try to follow it as much as possible. On this song in particular, it just didn't happen. Tracked in a hurry, bass player had barely learned the song.

We get a great response to this song playing live, so we wanted to put it out for people to have.

I'm using it as an opportunity to further my education and experience with engineering. I've come a long ways in the last 3 years, but I have SO MUCH FARTHER to go.

With advice like yours, it really is a gut check to do things right the first time. I am DEFINITELY a "I can fix that later...let's move on" type of guy with my own projects.

The funny thing is, I'm recording another band right now and I've been hard-core about that. No fixing in the mix...play it tight and play it right. I'll agree with you that the performances and mix are going to sound MUCH better than this song, as the song is performed better. I understand that a good song & performance will trump a well mixed shitty song / performance every time.

I hope you check out some threads with new recordings that I'll post up in the next month or so. We're recording 4 good (hopefully) catchier tunes, and I plan to be VERY strict on the production / timing / sloppiness thing.

For the songwriting...hopefully we've already done our job there with the new ones...I just need to capture it properly.


I'm really just trying to get better at this...and I do really appreciate the feedback.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by funkdrmr

With advice like yours, it really is a gut check to do things right the first time. I am DEFINITELY a "I can fix that later...let's move on" type of guy with my own projects.

Later on, after you've gotten more experience, you *CAN* work like this and get great results. However, when starting out it's best to focus on accuracy/good sound, and when you've figured out how to get that you can work on making yourself FASTER.

A lot of times, especially nowadays, when you hear so many great things coming out of home studios the only difference between a "pro" and an "amateur" is the length of time it took to produce. The home studio guys may take a year, and the pro took 2 weeks, but they both sound equally amazing.

So yeah, moral of the story--accuracy first, speed second.

[Sideshow Studios]

I actually really liked the song, the guitars are quite well recorded but could do with a little bit more gain to make them a bit more fat or bring them closer in the mix.

I can't help but the feel the bass guitar tone is letting down the whole mix. Sometimes that can't be helped, depends on what pre your using, or amp and guitar.

Some people have been saying the overall compression is too much but I quite like it, believe me I've heard tracks like that with 10x more compression so I think this sounds ok.

Maybe because its not mastered it sounds unfinished but it was still quite nice to listen to.

Good melodies, good harmonies, good singing. Overall pretty good thumbsup