Lighter indie rock/be brutial

[johndykstra]

<<<POST #22 CONTAINS THE NEWEST FILES>>>

I'd like some feed back on these two tracks. Anything related to tracking/mix/song suggestions would be appreciated, as it's my group; not just something I'm working on.

I'll answer questions reguarding the mix process as best I can, but I was more involved with tracking, the guitarist is doing the first mixes.

loose threads starts out intentionally roomy/lo-fi, and gets bigger in the 2nd and 3rd sections (watch your volume)

sorry if these files are too large, I hate MP3's

sons vs daughters 1st mix - Putfile.com

loose threads 1st mix - Putfile.com

thanks people

[johndykstra]

21 views and no replies....

must be perfect...or aweful

[audioscience]

First off I wanna say that I like the cool vibe of the vocals on "sons vs. daughters". Aight, I wanna help you out, but I need to know your recording process (aka) mic selection and what instrument that was miked with that microphone. Then I will be able to get a better understanding of where to go from there.

-Matt

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by audioscience

First off I wanna say that I like the cool vibe of the vocals on "sons vs. daughters". Aight, I wanna help you out, but I need to know your recording process (aka) mic selection and what instrument that was miked with that microphone. Then I will be able to get a better understanding of where to go from there.

-Matt

Ok, but what are you listening on?

We track everything to a Presonus Firestudio with a Mackie Onyx 800 extension. All preamps used unless listed were tracked through the Onyx.
Tracked into Logic

Drums:

Kick - ADL600 /Beta 52 live style port
Kick - 414 outter shell (see tips and techniques section for picture of technique)

Snr top - ADL600/ beta 57
Snr bottom - beta 57

Rack - md421
Flr - md421

overheads - sm81's stereo
room stereo - ADL600's/Cascade Fatheads

Bass: (various elements may or may not be used in this mix, but all were tracked)

Fender US Jazz
Mesaboogie 2x10 bass combo (Venture i think?)
Radial passive di
AKG d112
Apex 210 ribbon

Gtr 1 : (again all elements tracked not sure which one(s) are in use)

Gibson ES335
Marshall JCM800 half stack
Senn E609 close
SM57 close
Apex 210 -2'
U87 - room

Gtr 2 : (ditto)

US tele with mini humbucker bridge
Vox AC30
same mics as above

Keys : (again)

Nord stage 76
stereo Radial passive DI
Fender Twin
same mics as above

Vox:

main parts U87
harmonies U87/Apex 210 ribbon/some chinese tube condenser
lo-fi vocals - home made speaker mic.

All elements were done overdubbed (this is the one thing I would definately do over)

As far as mixing, as I've said Nick has taken the reigns on this, mostly because I don't own a Mac.

He's using stock Logic plugs and a good number of PSP plugs.

I know he's been high passing(maybe not enough in some cases)
I know the room mics are parellel compressed (for the most part)
I suspect the guitars should be low passed around 7-10k
I suspect the release times on the drums (comp)aren't where I'd have them
I know he hasn't been checking mono

Overall, I'm happy with the feel, just looking for some feedback.

[johndykstra]

Some folks have requested aac files...

loose threads was too large, but here's sons vs. daughters

[peeder]

The reverbs are wrong and the vocal EQ is very wrong on the one AAC file. Needs better bus compression etc. The tracks are fine enough I think, but there may be bad room resonances I'm hearing as poor reverb. I'm just listening through my little 1029As that aren't set up well. Have someone mix.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by peeder

The reverbs are wrong and the vocal EQ is very wrong on the one AAC file. Needs better bus compression etc. The tracks are fine enough I think, but there may be bad room resonances I'm hearing as poor reverb. I'm just listening through my little 1029As that aren't set up well. Have someone mix.

Thanks peeder,

I was afraid you were going to say that.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

Thanks peeder,

I was afraid you were going to say that.

Trying to figure out how to approach the situation without a band fight.

Well it's survivable as it is I guess. It gives it an early REM gloomy and obscured tone, but that tone was smoother and more analog.

Politics and fragile egos is everything in this business...you said be brutal so I was. I don't think this song is a charting hit so maybe it's better to lose this one and keep the band generating product rather than score a pyrrhic victory.

[audioscience]

Peeder had it right about the efx. Also, instruments need to be cleaned up with EQ...GTRs are spilling into some of the Bass sound, kick gets lost most of the time, and vocal and keys clash. Also, did you check the phase between the overheads and the snare?? I love the vibe of this track.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by peeder

Well it's survivable as it is I guess. It gives it an early REM gloomy and obscured tone, but that tone was smoother and more analog.

Politics and fragile egos is everything in this business...you said be brutal so I was. I don't think this song is a charting hit so maybe it's better to lose this one and keep the band generating product rather than score a pyrrhic victory.

No no the brutality was welcomed, and appreciated.

Funny you should mention REM, I'm a huge fan.

And yeah, charts aren't even a thought in the overall scheme of what we're doing. It's all just for giggles, and having said that, I'd like us to be able to get better at doing this on our own.

Reverb aside, regarding resonance and eq, is it something you're seeing overall across the mix, i.e., our room acoustics aren't too great and it's something that could be cured with a mastering job? No buss eq or comp was used on this, as we plan on having it mastered.

Thanks again Peeder.

[peeder]

Yeah I think your room sound is poor. It does not sound like a studio job at all. This is the first thing I'd fix.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by audioscience

Peeder had it right about the efx. Also, instruments need to be cleaned up with EQ...GTRs are spilling into some of the Bass sound, kick gets lost most of the time, and vocal and keys clash. Also, did you check the phase between the overheads and the snare?? I love the vibe of this track.

thanks for diggin' the groove.

i dislike the kick builds in the breakdown, a battle i fought and lost (I wonder if this part of your assesment of the kick?
i'll have him double check the phase but i think it was better it than out.
i agree guitars need some work (high pass you think?)

we tracked without a control room. we're finishing up setting up a control room in a 2nd floor bedroom, so the next project should benefit from better mic placement. also just obtained a 1" 16 track Otari and a Ramsa board. REALLY looking forward to writing the next batch.

Thanks alot for the input guys.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by peeder

Yeah I think your room sound is poor. It does not sound like a studio job at all. This is the first thing I'd fix.

I realize this may be an unanswerable question...how?

I know right?

My ceilings are low....about 7' (at the highest points covering 60-70% of room. There are pertruding hvac ducts below the 7' height, which have been encased in 2x4's and drywalled, bringing the height in those areas to just over 6'.)

I have bass traps in all corners (crappy foam) 2 corners 8" (because of window restrictions) and the other 2 are 18".

Replace with real bass traps?

There is an abundance of 2" rigidglass wall absobers, all the way around the room with about 1' between each. We have rugs on the floor.

Too many wall traps? (maybe use leftover rigidglass to construct bass traps for the corners?)

Our thinking on all of the wall traps was "since our room sounds like arse, let's just deaden it and add artificle verb when needed.

I'm guessing the answer to be a room analysis test. Anyone have any suggestions on this. I've seen the links to the software, but I'm guessing an RTA mic is needed no?

[Jesse Mangum]

Part of the problem is that you're recording "indie rock" with semi-pro/pro gear! Who ever heard of using a U87 for indie rock vocals?

If you're truly going for indie rock then you need to cut your mic/track count in half... one mic per drum max... and completely un-learn anything you've learned about room treatments and isolation, etc.

These are just my opinions, naturally... but I can't justify calling something "indie rock" if it has been so meticulously tracked... the indie rock legends had no idea what the heck they were doing... nor did they know the difference between a 57 and a U87.... they just recorded to the best of their ability with very limited knowledge and equipment, and that's why those records sound the way they do... if that's not what you're going for, don't call it indie rock!

[peeder]

You want more diffusion. And get rid of that foam crap. That is actually amplifying your bass, not absorbing it.

I have 12 gik traps and two big boxes of auralex diffusors up.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by Jesse Mangum

Part of the problem is that you're recording "indie rock" with semi-pro/pro gear! Who ever heard of using a U87 for indie rock vocals?

If you're truly going for indie rock then you need to cut your mic/track count in half... one mic per drum max... and completely un-learn anything you've learned about room treatments and isolation, etc.

These are just my opinions, naturally... but I can't justify calling something "indie rock" if it has been so meticulously tracked... the indie rock legends had no idea what the heck they were doing... nor did they know the difference between a 57 and a U87.... they just recorded to the best of their ability with very limited knowledge and equipment, and that's why those records sound the way they do... if that's not what you're going for, don't call it indie rock!

I suppose I didn't mean indie rock as the aesthetic. More as the song style. By your regards then, the Shins, Death Cab, Burning Airlines, etc. weren't or aren't indie rock bands, cause I can bet they knew what they were doing. But thanks for the advice. DId you even listen or no?

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by peeder

You want more diffusion. And get rid of that foam crap. That is actually amplifying your bass, not absorbing it.

I have 12 gik traps and two big boxes of auralex diffusors up.

I've seen a few threads regarding diy diffusors, any thoughts or is it more cost effective to just purchase them?

[peeder]

All-in my room treatments were about $3000. It most certainly added $100 to the value of each of my microphones.

If you want a homemade vibe then OK. I don't know much about DIY.

Oh and Death Cab uses Hodas-tuned rooms etc. Choice not chance.

Here's Death Cab's room, fyi:

two sticks audio - seattle washington

[Audio Hombre]

i liked the the vibe of the song and thats most important. fvck the recording to an extent (especially in indie) and long live the song. trust me, your space is probably 10x's better than mitch easter's, so just do it and keep doing it. sure sure, it was tape back then but w-t-f ever.

the drums need work and it even sounds like the drums are part of the problem, not the recording.can't believe nobody's commented on that yet. snare sounds like a budget packing box with very old heads, sounds just horrible. for sure take lots of time checking phase and you'll be in better shape. for indie, i don't like lots of mics and like to really get the oh's happening. problem with relying on oh's for most of your tone, is you're relying on your drummer even more. a sh1tty drummer who smaks everything as hard as he can, or at equal velocity is teh useless noob in the studio imho. studio drumming is nothing remotely close to playing a show in an school gym or elk's hall. so really work with the drummer to be aware of how hard he's hitting his brass especially.

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

I've seen a few threads regarding diy diffusors, any thoughts or is it more cost effective to just purchase them?

don't waste your time on diffusors. good treatment will suffice, again, i'll bet you your 87 that easter didn't have diffusor's, let alone 703 panels on his walls.

lots of math involved with diffusors, so diy is a slippery slope. if you can afford them, great, but i wouldn't sweat it.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by Audio Hombre

i liked the the vibe of the song and thats most important. fvck the recording to an extent (especially in indie) and long live the song. trust me, your space is probably 10x's better than mitch easter's, so just do it and keep doing it. sure sure, it was tape back then but w-t-f ever.

the drums need work and it even sounds like the drums are part of the problem, not the recording.can't believe nobody's commented on that yet. snare sounds like a budget packing box with very old heads, sounds just horrible. for sure take lots of time checking phase and you'll be in better shape. for indie, i don't like lots of mics and like to really get the oh's happening. problem with relying on oh's for most of your tone, is you're relying on your drummer even more. a sh1tty drummer who smaks everything as hard as he can, or at equal velocity is teh useless noob in the studio imho. studio drumming is nothing remotely close to playing a show in an school gym or elk's hall. so really work with the drummer to be aware of how hard he's hitting his brass especially.



don't waste your time on diffusors. good treatment will suffice, again, i'll bet you your 87 that easter didn't have diffusor's, let alone 703 panels on his walls.

lots of math involved with diffusors, so diy is a slippery slope. if you can afford them, great, but i wouldn't sweat it.

well, first off thankyou for youe compliment on the tune. awesome.

i doubt it's the snares fault, it's some crazy $1500 brass recording something or nother. So phase may just be the issue there... but i don't think the snare's that bad. am I crazy?

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by peeder

All-in my room treatments were about $3000. It most certainly added $100 to the value of each of my microphones.

If you want a homemade vibe then OK. I don't know much about DIY.

Oh and Death Cab uses Hodas-tuned rooms etc. Choice not chance.

Here's Death Cab's room, fyi:

two sticks audio - seattle washington

didn't Death Cab track their early stuff at The Halls of Justice? this place must be later.

would you suggest diffusors on the ceiling and keep the wall panels, or a bit of both maybe?

thanks again peeder
{edit} new drummers place, never mind...{edit}

[johndykstra]

Well after a lot of trial and error, and mixing and remixing, here's a few songs that are darn near done. Applied is a "ghetto master" 2 buss treatment of eq, multiband, limiter, etc.....

[johndykstra]

Also, heres a link to the thread containing the work to be done on my room(s), for any who are interested.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-...-included.html

[Elvis]

sons vs daughters sounds good. definitely fixed the snare problem. way to go!

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by Elvis

sons vs daughters sounds good. definitely fixed the snare problem. way to go!

Thank you...thank you very much.

[neverfeather]

early death cab stuff was done by Chris Walla at Hall of Justice which was not actually a space, just his name for all his gear that moved around from house to house. You can hear the fidelity grow with every album, but the early stuff definitely has a great lo-fi thing going. By the photo album things are starting to clean up as the budgets and know how accelerate.

[hereticskeptic]

"Sons and Daughters" is a dope track. Definitely heard a big difference between the initial version posted and the "ghetto master". Downloading that version now. I really like it.

Back to your build thread now...

[johndykstra]

hey thanks man. everything you're hearing was tracked before the cloud and poly diffusors. stay tuned this summer-ish for new stuff with the room "finished" because there's no control room right now, we are tracking all in the one room.

thanks again,

John

[hereticskeptic]

Originally Posted by johndykstra

hey thanks man. everything you're hearing was tracked before the cloud and poly diffusors. stay tuned this summer-ish for new stuff with the room "finished" because there's no control room right now, we are tracking all in the one room.

thanks again,

John

So even that mastered one was done so from a recording in the semi-treated room? That's impressive man. It sounded clean. I have such a long way to go, but it'll be worth the hard work and diligence in the end. Keep crankin out those songs man. Peace