Grand Piano Recording - comments please.

[anguswoodhead]

Greetings again Slutz.
I recently acquired a 40 year old 6 foot Kawai Grand Piano.
Did some recording the other day.

Close Mic'ed spaced pair with Giles Audio modded Mann M11's (JLM Dual 99v & TG500 500 series Mic Pre's).
Room Mics - a Mid-Side pair using JLM Audio Modded U87 copy (Cardioid) and C12 copy (Fig 8) (Yamaha PM1800a Desk Mic Pre's).

I noticed a fair bit of sustain pedal clunk - are my spaced pair to close to the sound board / strings?
Any constructive comments on my recording (sound) and piano would be appreciated.
Cheers

[ninjaneer]

overall i found the sound 'boxy' and certain tones seemed to excite this more than others,
seems as if the louder the dynamic the stronger the effect -
have you had it fully checked out and tuned?

for my taste the bass end needs more clarity and and overall the piano could have
more ambience. which is more of a mix thing if you have recorded 4 channels or more.

alot will also depend on your room acoustics as to how far you can go with the tone,
there should be a period of experimenting with your mic / pre / room combination.


i found this article from sound on sound hope it's useful for you:

Piano principles

[anguswoodhead]

Thanks for your comments.
I have had the piano serviced and tuned since I bought it a month ago.
I have applied no EQ and only a little compression at the mix stage.
I can certainly add more of the MS mics to create more ambience or room sound however the room is not perfect.

[ninjaneer]

do you have a sound in mind that you are shooting for?

i found the tones on the herbie hancock album river - the joni letters superb

not sure how much of that is the room, reverbs or sublime playing.

tc electronics reverb 6000 has some interesting halls if you have access to one.

might be worth experimenting with reverbs if the room doesn't bring anything to your vision.

and if you get time i would record every tone on the piano and check for resonances
it might help to add some extra treatment on certain notes.

[anguswoodhead]

Anyone else care to comment - I thought it sounded okay for my first go ????

[seanmccoy]

The piano sounds a little tweaky to me—almost like an old upright—especially in the bass. (I think Chris Martin would love it!) As it's an older piano, it may need some more work to get it really singing. I had a 6'3" Kawai in the 90's, which I bought brand new, and absolutely couldn't get that piano to record well. I upgraded it to a 7' and have been in heaven since. OTOH, we had a 5'9" in our old studio, and though it didn't rock like the seven, it recorded very well.

That said, I'm not sure there's anything bad about the recorded sound of your piano. As was recommended, you need to experiment with every possible layout and combination to see what works with that instrument in that room, and this will be dependent on what sound you need for each project. This piano won't likely ever be great for classical work because of its size and nature (Kawai tends to be on the bright side), but should be fine for jazz & rock once you work out the kinks.

[anguswoodhead]

Cool - ultimately I bought this piano to do my own album - contemporary pop gospel, not classical.

[seanmccoy]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

Cool - ultimately I bought this piano to do my own album - contemporary pop gospel, not classical.

Great. Have the best piano tech you can find go over the piano thoroughly. Don't rule out replacing some of the strings if they're seriously worn. It's a bit of a pain and requires some breaking in time to get the piano to sound even, but well worth it.

[Ken Walker]

I'd have to hear it again since you had it tuned. The bass section needs work. Specifically, in the Beethoven piece, you can hear intonation issues in the lower register or hammers in the mid register that are not striking as they should in measures 6, 12, 18, 21, 25, and 26. Check the C and E stings in the lower register. Dynamics do not come off well on this piano, and I don't want to say it's a function of the player. I will assume that anyone trying these pieces is more than competant on the instrument.

It really doesn't sound like a grand piano at this stage. Have your tech go over it with the proverbial fine-tooth comb.

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by kpaw

It really doesn't sound like a grand piano at this stage. Have your tech go over it with the proverbial fine-tooth comb.

Ouch - there is a small issue with the sound board he said.
Anyone got a good classical piano piece they could upload for me to use a reference?

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

Anyone got a good classical piano piece they could upload for me to use a reference?

Download anything by Glenn Gould or Murray Perahia.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

Ouch - there is a small issue with the sound board he said.
Anyone got a good classical piano piece they could upload for me to use a reference?

Here are a few top quality modern recordings and performances recorded on Steinway concert grands:

Evgeny Kissin performing Franz Liszt's La Campanella

Pierre Laurant Aimard performing Messian's L'Echange



There are also Five recordings of my own piano works you can listen to. Professionally recorded and mastered. They were all stereo miced from the third row in an expensive modern hall. Performed on a Steinway concert grand worth more than my life.

Listen to Dans La Maison De Scriabine and Four Premonitions if you like.