Anyone interested in hearing hit songs that never existed?

[imnickb]

somewhat off topic...

i checked out your website...

do you have a score to Dans la maison de Scriabine? just curious, i would like to see it.

thanks,
nick

[Mr. Liszt]

Hey Nick,

Thanks for your interest in that piece. The work, as the title implies, owes heavily in terms of harmony and stylistic vein to Alexander Scriabin who I absolutely adored at the time and still very much do today. It is one of my first pieces written and performed at university. It has been performed several times since by other pianists. I feel it to be a very strong piece but due to it's derivative nature I have never been interested in pushing it out there so much.

I wrote that piece before I had Finale so i don't have an e-score. It is a hand score at the moment. I have never scanned it into a computer. The score too is oversized (tabloid) so I would have to go to a copy center to get it done. Depending on the degree of your interest I can mail you a copy of the score. Are you a pianist or a composer somewhere?

[Chucho]

I can't see why you are doing this? As an academic exercise it's interesting but are you trying to make money / hits out of this ?
they sound like comedy pastiches without jokes. Have you heard of the ruttles?
No offence meant - really.

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by Chucho

I can't see why you are doing this? As an academic exercise it's interesting but are you trying to make money / hits out of this ?
they sound like comedy pastiches without jokes. Have you heard of the ruttles?
No offence meant - really.

I may not be going down the road that most people do when learning/mastering songwriting. Is that ok with you though? Maybe I should sign up for some songwriting lessons with ya and you can enlighten me as to the best way to do things. Deal?

And if you would have read my entire posts you would know that I am not trying to make money on these tunes and that I am doing it for academic study of basic songwriting/arranging.

Yes I have heard of the Ruttles. My tunes are better than that.

[RusRant]

I am correct in thinking you are not trying to make a career out of these songs? You are just trying to develop your writing chops? If thats the case, good job for what it is. Hate to use this cliche, but you have to imitate before you can inovate. As Dylan once said, "it helps to know the road before you ride down it'.

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by RusRant

I am correct in thinking you are not trying to make a career out of these songs? You are just trying to develop your writing chops? If thats the case, good job for what it is. Hate to use this cliche, but you have to imitate before you can inovate. As Dylan once said, "it helps to know the road before you ride down it'.

Hey,

You are exactly correct. I write a lot of music and these are just studies of past popular music. I am not trying to make any money from or market these songs. Thanks for checking it out.

[Diablo]

First: Congrats on being brave enough (I was going to say confident, but you have that down ) to post these tracks. I like them, it shows promise. Promise on both the engineering fronts and the songwriting fronts.

So why not skip these exercises and start trying to emulate modern pop music? I can surely understand the obsession with the "past masters" and I only ask this since I'm assuming you wish to become a viable current commercial producer, a la Max Martin or Toby Gad.

I'm going out on a limb here, and I admit that I'm no musicologist, but I kind of feel that modern songwriting is fully evolved. The Beatles showed us what fully evolved songwriting is (and how wide and deep it can be) and that "style" is still in use today. Gone from the charts are the 50's songs based on fixed chord progressions, gone are the overly used 60's 7th chords. To my ears, stripping away the production clutter, the last Fergie hit, "Big Girls Don't Cry" is from that the very same school. There are only production differences to differentiate much of each era's hits since the Beatles. Toby Gad, himself, said that "Big Girls" is a classic piece of songwriting since the quality of the song can be imparted with just an acoustic guitar.

If you have any more tracks, please post, I am enjoying these.

[hanuman]

If an A&R manager would here this, what would be the difference in his perception from an unknown artist redoing an old famous song. These songs work back further, we all remember the success of 'O brother where art thou'.

It is like seeing a re-introduction of the spencer. You know you don't want it but there will be enough people who will.

(And it does have that feel of 'no worries', here's a nice song..)

[Chucho]

Originally Posted by Mr. Liszt

I may not be going down the road that most people do when learning/mastering songwriting. Is that ok with you though? Maybe I should sign up for some songwriting lessons with ya and you can enlighten me as to the best way to do things. Deal?

And if you would have read my entire posts you would know that I am not trying to make money on these tunes and that I am doing it for academic study of basic songwriting/arranging.

Yes I have heard of the Ruttles. My tunes are better than that.

I don't think they are better than the ruttles actually and the kinks song is a mess. again no offence meant but I am trying to be honest.

So if this a road to the mastery of songwriting why don't you go for timbaland/dianne warren/whoever and you could make a few million while you are at it ? I still can't see the point of doing very dated 'covers' in order become a songwriter in the year 2008.

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by Chucho

I don't think they are better than the ruttles actually and the kinks song is a mess. again no offence meant but I am trying to be honest.

So if this a road to the mastery of songwriting why don't you go for timbaland/dianne warren/whoever and you could make a few million while you are at it ? I still can't see the point of doing very dated 'covers' in order become a songwriter in the year 2008.

Hi again Chucho,

Well, I convinced myself that I had to write oldies hits before writing modern hits. I'm not saying that the ones I have posted would have been hits back then, that'd be pretty hard to ascertain. But I was trying to write oldies hits. I also have a lot of fun doing it.

About my Kinks tune...

Do you think it is a mess like in terms of performance or in terms of strong songwriting? The performance I wanted to sound sloppy actually but maybe I went overboard? The guitar solo was supposed to be really bad. I wanted the vocals to sound real loose with regard to staying in the key, lol. At any rate I'd love to hear what you think about it in a little more detail if you have some time. That's why I posted these here ITFP.

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by Diablo

First: Congrats on being brave enough (I was going to say confident, but you have that down ) to post these tracks. I like them, it shows promise. Promise on both the engineering fronts and the songwriting fronts.

So why not skip these exercises and start trying to emulate modern pop music? I can surely understand the obsession with the "past masters" and I only ask this since I'm assuming you wish to become a viable current commercial producer, a la Max Martin or Toby Gad.

I'm going out on a limb here, and I admit that I'm no musicologist, but I kind of feel that modern songwriting is fully evolved. The Beatles showed us what fully evolved songwriting is (and how wide and deep it can be) and that "style" is still in use today. Gone from the charts are the 50's songs based on fixed chord progressions, gone are the overly used 60's 7th chords. To my ears, stripping away the production clutter, the last Fergie hit, "Big Girls Don't Cry" is from that the very same school. There are only production differences to differentiate much of each era's hits since the Beatles. Toby Gad, himself, said that "Big Girls" is a classic piece of songwriting since the quality of the song can be imparted with just an acoustic guitar.

If you have any more tracks, please post, I am enjoying these.

Thanks for your post Diablo!

Yeah, I have more! I have 5 more produced and I have probably a dozen or so that I haven't been able to get to yet then I have like a hundred or so 90% of the way finished.

I'll put some more on tonight if I can get around to uploading them to my site. Thanks for your post again!

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Seifer

yes

all the guys here are jealous jaded assholes with impossible dreams they will never achieve

I just show up every once in a while to mess with them

*loud fart noise*

my butthole speaks

Firstly, great post. Seriously.
Second, I don't get the point or intent of the OP's post.

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by emkay

Second, I don't get the point or intent of the OP's post.

What do you mean? Seriously.

[Mr. Liszt]

And again, thanks for all the posts from everyone. I knew that I would get slammed and will get slammed many times in the future for what I do wether it's trying to imitate oldies songs or produce modern songs. And I'm prepared for that. All the posts, negative and positive and in the middle, on this thread, to a greater or lesser degree, represent what people out there in the real world would think about what I'm doing. If I ever get rich (lol) I'll send each of you a dollar in the mail

Thanks dudes.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Mr. Liszt

What do you mean? Seriously.

Second, I SERIOUSLY don't get the point or intent of the OP's post.

[Chucho]

I do admire (and envy) your confidence. It does indeed take guts to put yourself out there like you did.
I was serious about going straight to the year 2008 in terms of your songwriting efforts. You do have an ear for authenticity and you might end up with a solid gold hit if you get it right. (Unless you don't need the money of course )

[Mr. Liszt]

Here's another that I did while I was still just plugging an sm58 straight into my notebook. It's about a girl named Daphne who you might have found on the T.V. in the 80's. I think that I put way too much reverb on the tambourines. Pretty simple production on this one. Bridge is kinda cool.

Daphne

If it was hunreds of miles,
I would’ve walked it all.
‘Cause of the dressing gown,
And orange colored locks.

I was a fool in love.
I was a fool…
Was a fool for Daphne.

If it was 5 to 10,
Years I’d have to wait,
I would’ve of been just fine.
With her love got it made.

I was a fool in love.
I was a fool…
Was a fool for Daphne.

Daphne, girl, you had the way to make them,
All of them slaves.
All of them said, “Oo, oo, oo, oo, oo, oo, oo.”

If it was hunreds of miles,
I would’ve walked it all.
‘Cause of the dressing gown,
And orange colored locks.

I was a fool in love.
I was a fool…
Was a fool for Daphne.

http://www.jeromeperry.com/Daphne.mp3

[Chucho]

Re: daphne. Fabulous.
now you are on to something. this is pure syd barrett.
I found this (googled) and you might see what I'm on about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtXVrANEhU
I like this a lot.
Ignore everything I said about modern music and making money. Go you freak go !

[diatonic]

...

[The Listener]

There is something creepy in those retro reconstructions that seem like the real thing, but only copy the apperance - yes it can be a nice technique for practising songwriting - but I quess just analyzing and transcribing the old hits would also do for practise... Then you put your soul and craftsmanship into producing something original and meaningful...
Those excercises sound like zombies without soul to me... Artificial constructions without meaning - and that is creepy - like a soulless human clone would be...

What I hear from you is good for some television work - when there is a need for a retro mimicking soundtrack and not enough budget to get the real thing... or using some real vintage hit and remaking it into a whole soundtrack - there you could apply your technique directly.

Otherwise I don't understand your intentions about posting this either - you also seem to get angry at any criticism...?

We can't only praise your attempts as good excercises... Yes, you manage to mimick the old styles, but those songs are nothing special in any way... And also for that time - you just mimicked some general vibe, but the real hits have some additional quality - something that makes them special - I am afraid that can't be learned or exercised.


I think if marketing and other non-musical elements in pop business are not present - that kind of thinking about composing hits is not very useful.

Business searches for some originality - something special - some strange charisma in perfomers, some special sound and message in music - or they just hire technically skilled producers, mash-up or even directly remake some old hits and train a performer in public apperance, speaking, singing, dancing, etc. Whatever makes money.

I am afraid you cannot learn how to write hits - yes, there is some form, that can be copied, but the substance is elsewhere...

You can learn how to mimick, but it sounds funny and even bad when not taking into account that it is supposed to be just practise.

Write an original tune with your own language and post it here and ask -could that be a hit? We will understand that...

But posting excercises and asking - exatly - what are you asking?
Could those be hits if written 30, 40, 50 years ago?
Well, I don't know - they are similar to those styles, but they lack "certain something" that constitutes a hit (just my opinion) - and I can't tell you what it is... maybe someone else can.

And don't forget - 90% of the time - A HIT is a song that is promoted enough, had enough repeated airplay, nowadays - a good video, etc.

There are millions of great songs that were never hits or never will be... As importance of factors goes: marketing & promotion comes first, some special "hook" (special melodic line, interesting lyrics, sexy or unusual voice, interesting and fresh production techniques, etc.) in songs second and the overall musical quality (in regard to "hits") comes last...

[Mr. Liszt]

Hey The Listener,

Thank you for, well, listening and taking the time to offer your thoughts.

Well, I'd agree that the term "hit" is a piece of pop music that has reached a certain level of notoriety that achieved through marketing. But such a piece of music would be ill-fit to reach that level without also having a hit quality or exceptional ingenious craftsmanship to it.

I agree with your statement regarding what a potential "hit" needs musically:

"... some special "hook" (special melodic line, interesting lyrics, sexy or unusual voice, interesting and fresh production techniques, etc..."

Knowing that is important. I tried to implant those concepts into these songs and all of the modern work that I do in various ways and apparently, reading some of the posts in this thread, mostly in vein.

Can one learn to write hits?

I don't know. One can know these things:

1 - what is weak
2 - what is strong but of that WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE OR IS TOO DERIVATIVE
3 - what is strong and of that WHAT IS UNIQUE IN THE REPERTOIRE

Identifying those things is a big component. Without a clear understanding of these 3 things one has little hope of ever writing distinct music. I do not think that those things can be taught so much. A strong ear and a thoughtful mind and an existing musical intuition would have to be present. And an ability to process all these things quickly and efficiently enough to allow a productive workflow. Everything but #3 has to be removed.

This is all a learning process. In all the writers out there you have:

- Some will never be able to discern those 3 attributes in their work.
- Some will but will not have the courage to remove #2.
- Some may know these things but will not work hard enough to make it count

And maybe the secret is that everyone creates say:

- 95% of #1,
- 4% of #2
- 1% of #3

but material must be molded until it conforms to a large percentage of #3. That takes a lot of work and a clear mind.

[Mr. Liszt]

Since this thread is still not dead I will post another tune. I am learning so much through the feedback given by everyone here that I simply can't help it. So bring on more thoughts or bashing or whatever.

This one was also recorded low fi with an SM58 direct to my notebook. I tried to write loosely from The Kinks (Davies) occasional sarcastic and less than optimistic point of view. There are some production weaknesses. It's about Jackson Square in New Orleans. If you've been there you know where I'm coming from. Later, I found out that Ray Davies had been wounded in the French Quarter so it was kind of strange coincidence. The most fun part was getting all my friends to come over and scream Jackson Square for me.


Jackson Square!

If you take a walk in Jackson Square,
You will see all kinds and colors there.
We are the magicians and the fine musicians of Jackson Square.
You’ll find us there.

Come and take a walk in Jackson Square.
Bring your sons and daugthers and their fare.
You can see the highs and all the lows of Jackson Square.
We’ll all be there.

Ah!
In Jackson Square.
Ah!
We’ll all be there.
Ah!
Come see the life in Jackson Square!
Jackson Square!

Let us read your palm in Jackson Square.
While you watch the Purple colored mares.
We watch your eye sockets for we love your pockets in Jackson Square.
You’ll find us there.

Let me lead soon to Jackson Square.
Sounds of trumpets, sounding of the snares.
Follow me as we are headed down to Jackson Square.
We’re waiting there.

Ah!
In Jackson Square.
Ah!
We’re waiting there.
Ah!
Come give us life in Jackson Square!
Jackson Square!

Ah!
In Jackson Square.
Ah!
We’ll all be there.
Ah!
Come, give your life to Jackson Square!
Jackson Square!

http://www.jeromeperry.com/Jackson%20Square!.mp3

[NeoVXR]

I like these two
They Say That Love Is A Wonderful Thing.mp3
Once I'd Love To Kiss You Twice.mp3

Jackson square is also fine.

I can see what it is.
if one wants to take it serious, a song needs a serious performer. there are many "empty" compositions in the charts, but the performers are able to fill in some truth and emotion of their own.

so for example if jackson square were performed by max raabe, it might become a little hit.
MySpace.com - Max Raabe & Palast Orchester - www.myspace.com/palastorchesterberlin
YouTube - Max Raabe & The Palast Orchester - Let's Talk About Sex
MySpace.com - Max Raabe - Aachen - Other / Other - www.myspace.com/maxrabbe
there are countless live entries of raabe at youtube.

naturally the best hits come when writers are as fresh as the style and feel the idea in the very moment.


i see some value in the work, when a good idea comes up, perhaps from a client or by mr.liszt himself.
then the skills can be of help to get quickly together a good arrangement, plus remixes. it is easy to fulfill the demand of the A&R who tells to do it in a certain style.

i see a disadvantage if the knowledge can't be switched off.
fresh writing of contemporary music, at least for some of the styles, needs to get rid of any historical load. the mind needs to be empty. there would be a drag felt by the listener, that comes from older stuff in the back package. footprint is too heavy then.

[Kookaberry]

Great, it is just great when people are actually doing something really constructive. There are some great songs around here but, oh wow, I'm completely goggle eyed at the analysis gone into writing these pieces... oh i wish i could do that.... i must have corks for ears.

Wrt beatle-iness, I vaguely remember that the beatles 'demo' for their first 'sigh'-ning reputedly covered pretty much every style of the day. Furthermore, its pretty well known that at least the merseybeat groups 'copied' each other mercilessly in Hamburg times etc. In fact i think their (beatles) ability to do this made producers somewhat hesitant at first. Ok then they had the man - Epstein ...

Ok the songs: well i too smiled - liked the first two the best, then i got stuck listening to Max Raabe as that was great too. Mr Listener seems to be right about the soul, but then again the whole thing is an academic exercise....it does all seem to be on the 'cool' side of warm music, but then again its better than just working out the cheeks on the leather padded exec chair. Can't agree with going out for a smoke though....

But i'll stop now. Sorry can't criticise much, besides with all this 'greatness' around i might get indigestion from all this humble pie i'd be eating.

Inspirational to say the least

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by Kookaberry

Wrt beatle-iness, I vaguely remember that the beatles 'demo' for their first 'sigh'-ning reputedly covered pretty much every style of the day. Furthermore, its pretty well known that at least the merseybeat groups 'copied' each other mercilessly in Hamburg times etc. In fact i think their (beatles) ability to do this made producers somewhat hesitant at first. Ok then they had the man - Epstein ...


Inspirational to say the least

Hey Kook,

Now that is some seriously interesting information regarding The Beatles early days. I'd LOVE to hear more about this if you have anything!!!!!

Glad to inspire as well. Try at writing an old school hit and show it to me if you get a chance. I'd to hear how others approach this concept.