Who Here Masters Major Release RAP Stuff?

[dbbubba]

I need to talk to someone who masters Rap stuff.

I am providing a big P.A. rig for playback in a large club for semi big time rap artists on a regular basis.
I have done years of rock-n-roll and everything else in live venues, but I am wondering a few things about the low end on rap records.

Specifically:

The CDs the artists provide are probebly produced in their own studio or their producers facility and are not mastered. The low end varies from artist to artist. They all have lot's of boom and sub stuff, but when you are running a 10Kw rig in a club with people shouting on mics the rig is going to have compression going on for protection. It doesn't take a lot of low end "boom" to make a compressor clamp down pretty hard.

Some artists have so much low end that the vocals are being squashed to the point that they can't be heard over the boom!

I'd just like to know the process used in REAL rap releases.
In otherwords, how do the mastering houses that master major release CDs do it?

Danny Brown

[dbbubba]

Whoops. I forgot that there is a mastering forum as well.
I'll re-post this there, too.

Danny Brown

[AlexLakis]

What are some of your favorite-sounding rap albums, and who mastered them?

Why don't you book some time with one of those people and witness the magic firsthand?

[dbbubba]

I don't want to know how to do it.
I want to know what the standard is.

I have questions about what "proper" low end is.

I am having problems with the low end being "correct" with some artists.
In other words. WAYYYYYY to much low eend on their CDs.

I don't even LIKE rap music, but I am being paid rediculous cash to make these shows sound good. I need to know a few things that will help me.

I have recorded and mixed everything else in audio for thirty years, so I know the process in making it sound really good live as well. It all dovetails together. I just don't work in rap so I don't know the mastering protocol.

Imagine the monitor rig in your studio having 10Kw of power and you need to put in a CD and have it sound fantastic at the instant you hit PLAY.
Evidently there is no such thing as a sound check in rap.
I get the CD about 1 minute before show time.

Also, realize that any of our rigs are VERY balanced.
I am fortunate in that I have engineered for quite a while in the studio and live.
Just not in rap.

Danny Brown

[nathanvacha]

maybe i misunderstood your post, but it sounds to me like the problem you have is rap-bass effectively "ducking" the vocals...

to that i say... compress the track so it sees different dynamic control than than the vox (you mentioned compression as i recall) so try to keep the "beat" from triggering your mains limiter? this methinks...

[inlinenl]

well the standard is what you hear, I run the last stevie wonder album as ref. for the low-end in mastering ... it's so great ... the major rap can take a lesson from that production "I" think .....

I did some really amazing Alica Keys, 2Pac remixes made by a french producer .. but the vocals where not really legal .... damm !!

listen to the rapstyle .. like 2pac, NAS, Jay-z etc. etc. get a hang of it ..... it's all about the old "black" blues getting to the cities ..... black cotton ...

europe style has a much more low-end then USA stuff ... but again that's not always true .... depends on the production .. when you have a kick with center freq 125 or a sub low kick in the 60 Hz range ....

I guess the only thing that will make you survive in a traight way of working should be some decent eq roll-off and multiband compression kicking anything down under 100-200Hz .... mayby only on the beats group ... than on the masterbus ... ( I never have done real live PA work . so ignore my ignorance)

get some good eq/comp/mike on the vocal which will cut thrue but also blend into the music .....

I don't think that there is that much magic on mastering RAP .. just EQ/COMpression basicly ...
but for sure more than one comp and eq ....

I'm not a major .. but most of the time working on rap and hip-hop this is the chain ...digital eq WEISS .. cutting the low < 55/60 Hz and cutting around 300Hz and some d'sss ... multiband comp (tubetech multiband ) cutting the low and killing to loud digital hi-hats .. analog eq for color nseq-2 in solid-state .. even compensation on the low-cut in the digital EQ .... last but not least slightly through a manley vari-mu with slow attack and slow/medium release .. last through my cranesong hedd ...

hope to be of some help ... regards

Man, I can see you swet/smile in that club .... would be nice to watch ...

p.s. are those girls hot like in the videos .. you lucky b.

well there was/is a lot off killing in this message .. but for sure i'm a peacefull guy .. and nobody got really hurt by typing this message :-)

wim www.inlinemastering.com

[dbbubba]

Thanks for the info.
I think that I'll get a CD of a major release rap artist and play it.
I just need a correct standard to go by.

Yeah... the low end is ducking the vocals in the mains.
The monitors do not have a master compressor and they are not ducking.
I have a pair of dBx 900 racks (one with comps and the other with gates) and I do have medium compression on all of the mics (handheld Beta 58 wireless) but no gates.
The console is a Midas Venice 320 (plenty of extra real estate, but it looks impressive!)
I have an Ashely stereo 31 band EQ that feeds a pair of dBx 106x in the drive rack.
This feeds the dBx DriveRack that is emulating a Renkus Heinz Smart System crossover.

My partner Jim did some tweaking on the DriveRack before we went to the gig and there is a possibilty that there is some compression going on in the global section of it.
We spent considerable time analyzing the Renkus Heinz crossovers looking at their EQ slopes and crossover points. We used a scope to determine the delay time between freq. bands as well. The problem is that the dBx DriveRacks can do a lot and it is hard to see everything going on since things are buried in sub menus.
This is my complaint with using "do-all" boxes when it gets hot-n-heavy!

The environment?
Me and my crew of two guys are three of the maybe six white people in a crowd of 1000 plus black people. It is a cultural difference on a massive scale! There are some hotties, I guess, but when the have those "grilles" on their teeth when they smile, well... like I said, cultural difference.

I just like the $$$ and want to provide a good sounding suystem.
Of the nine acts we have done only last Sunday night's main artist had a CD that caused the ducking.

If someone complains I want to be able to say, "Here's (insert big name artist's) CD and it sounds good. Your's has excessive sub stuff going on."

I'm no dummy with sound systems or audio at all because I have mixed on massive rigs many times (we have a 25Kw Nexo rig.) I can walk right up to F.O.H. and get things going on any well designed and balanced rig no matter what the size with most any style. I just don't do a lot of rap and the artist is giving me a CD with the tracks I am at the mercy of his production to a degree.

Truthfully, in a live situation with four cats rapping on four wirelss mics in a club with 1000 people jammin' the last thing I need is to have to deal with a jacked-up playback CD! It is pretty hot-n-heavy and "emotions" are running very high. I don't want anyone to be dissapointed!

Thanks for the answers,

Danny Brown

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I don't want to know how to do it.
I want to know what the standard is.

I have questions about what "proper" low end is.

I am having problems with the low end being "correct" with some artists.
In other words. WAYYYYYY to much low eend on their CDs.

Low end is a REAL problem, you said it!

I haven't mastered any "major" hip hop artists but I've mastered a couple of dozen in my career for local groups, some of whom have gotten airplay throughout the southeast. I find the "major" hip hop records translate well through most club systems. Underline "most", as there are some terribly-aligned club systems, purposely set up so the bottom end is up several dB, and it's real hard to make a record that sounds good on home and on the radio and in the car also sound good on those club systems.

As for the magic, I simply master the disc in my calibrated (and known) control room! When it comes out, the bottom end sounds good (or at least "translates") to the car, the boom box, and home systems. We then cross our fingers and the artist reports back how it sounds at the club. If it's not a go at the club, we MAY make adjustments, or we MAY make a special club version if it's going to compromise playback everywhere else. Clubs are often truly off the scale bass-wise. And, yes, many amateurly-produced rap and hip hop albums are also off the scale bass-wise, so there's no definitive answer.

If you play a bunch of "major" rap and hip hop CDs on your large PA system and they sound well balanced, then blame the poorly-produced discs. Otherwise your system may need some work. David Banner, Emimem, Jill Scott play well everywhere, including MOST of the clubs. I'm not current with all the names, so those are the ones that come to the tip of my tongue.

BK

[RhOdEz]

I'd probably try to sneak in some multiband limiter just to be safe in that situation - like tc finalizer or something

[dbbubba]

I have a Finalizer and even thought about trying it out, BUT....

The Finalizer has to have a sample of the material first to compute the optimized settings.
Thre is no chance to do this without a soundcheck.
It just takes too much fiddling around to get the Finalizer set up.
By saying too much fiddling around I mean the :30 seconds or so required just don't exist.
If I had the CDs first I could make the Finalizer work, but I could also EQ the front end (the mixer, 31 band EQ) in a way that worked with the particular CD.

Come to think of it, the dBx 260 DriveRack HAS multiband compression!
Again, it is really fiddly to use as quickly as things need to happen.

This isn't really an issue of "how do I set up the rig."
What I really want to know is what is a standard in order to know what it should sound like.
In truth we have done arena size (25Kw) rigs for rap artists, but their CDs were fine.
I guess the Dr. Dre 2001 CD should work as a benchmark.

For you guys that don't do p.a. work it might seem like playback gigs would be easier because the music is there ready for you.
In practice, you are at the mercy of the quality of the track!
With a band you are in control of much more of the individual components.

I have time to play with the rig before the club opens each time zi set it up, so I guess I'll be buying a Dr. Dre CD.

Thanks for the ideas.

Danny Brown

[inlinenl]

the tubetech can be fast ... just one big knob ... for compensating the low band ...
less or more ......

just set it to compress a little bit on an average hip-hop cd ..... mayby then in a live you'll see it doing about 15 or -20 dB ( a tubetech will do that nicely ) ... just compensate to the amount you want to hear ......

but not a cheap solution ..... but you said it was good $$$$

greetings wim ....

www.inlinemastering.com

[Paul Gold]

In a past life I mixed rap shows in NYC. It is chaotic by nature. That you are even trying to make it sound good is a testament to your patience and good will. Even on rap records the low end is all over the place depending on the sound of the kick and bass. There is no standard. I think the finalizer is a good idea. Just have it set to "0" and keep your finger on the low end threshold adjustment. I'm sure it will be close enough.

[Paul Gold]

Another thing you could do with the finalizer is use it as a pre crossover. Set the low crossover at 200Hz and ride the gain to taste. Or if you want to get really fancy set the low band at 80hz and the mid band at 200-300hz and adjust to taste. It could be roughed out in less than 5 seconds. It would probably sound better than compression. I always found that unless you have setup time and someone or thing that is consistant, compression doesn't work very well.

[dbbubba]

CHAOTIC is an understatement!!!!

There are so many extra people (their posse?) that look just like the "artist(s)" that it is pretty loose show to say the least.
It just starts and then the last trcak ends and they stop.
The live show only goes from 1:30 am until 2:00 am which is when the club closes.
At 2 a.m. the big white lights come on and it all over.
It ain't like ANY live show I've ever done!

I am toying with the idea of the Finalizer.
Either that or building a special "RAP" pre-set on the dBx260 DriveRack unit.

My other thought is to cross the lows (15"s) low enough to carry the vocals and body of the track and have the subs fed via an AUX. I'd only have the track feeding the subs, so the low stuff wouldn't react with the vocals at all. The only problem is that this requires another crossover (which I have plenty of) and a special re-configuration of the rig for this club. Then again, this rig will only be used for this venue between now and next May.

I am actually comforted by Paul Gold's comment that he experienced the same "phenomena" and that the low end is "all over the place."
There is just no standard, I guess!

Yes, I do want it right.
I don't go to gigs to do it half-assed.
I always strive for the best possible sound even if I don't like the music.
I have made a lot of money over the years by treating people who played certian styles the same respect as anyone else.
I have recorded a LOT od speed metal and death metal bands over the years and even produced a few releases for MetalBlade and Roadrunner.
I found the music humorous sounding, but never told that to the bands.

Live rap sound is like going into a combat zone!

I don't want anyone "dissapointed" with my sound either.
#1) I want to keep getting the C A S H
#2) These guys take this stuff VERY seriously and I have their respect so far.

I WANT TO KEEP IT THIS WAY!

We are doing this gig because we want to fill in our calender while it's slow (we are EXTREMELY busy between late October and May) and the money talks loudly! We also have a good rig sitting that isn't working. I'll have another guy do this gig after I get busy in a month. I want it set in stone as far as our part goes.

Danny Brown

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Paul Gold

It is chaotic by nature. That you are even trying to make it sound good is a testament to your patience and good will.

I was thinking this too.

How about listening to Dre's 'The Chronic' and getting it to have as much of that 'character' (instead of freq. response) as possible considering the room, source, etc.?

[Paul Gold]

Just remember that rap is raw. It started with whatever boxes could be scrounged up jumped into the street light near the playground. It of course has evolved and there are plenty of well recorded examples. If someone is screaming into the mic than distortion is part of the vibe. It's not a beautiful murder ballad.

[RhOdEz]

Maybe there's another "set and forget" device besides Finalizer that could help ? What's actually being used at radio stations these days for limiting and whatnot ?
Eventides? or even Waves MaxxBCL hardware boxes ?
Yeap i know that serious multiband limiting can compromise overall soundquality in controlled studio/audiophile listening enviroment but in case of really different unmastered recordings it looks like the only way ...
It also needs to be simple to use - i guess someone could recommend some "radio/live friendly " gear chain ?

[dbbubba]

I have often thought about what would happen if you used a radio or TV processor like a an Orban Optimod in a live p.a. situation.

I am fairly familiar with radio processing because I used to do live mixes of label rock bands (Metallica, Ratt, etc...) and I used to have fun switching between the monitor mix off of the console and off of the radio. Whheeeeewwwww!!!!! PROCESSING out the AZZ!

Then again. I don't know how "on the fly" they are.

Danny Brown

[balanceman]

embrace the bass.
havin a shelf handy for everything below 200hz can be handy.

As I was told 10 years ago mixing some Oakland rap:

"It don matter where you put the bass- a motherf--ker turn it up anyway!"

the above comment mostly applies to car stereos.

in the end - too much subs is too much subs.

good bass is dependent on the source.
they need good production, or you will just be making a bunch of mud really loud.

I've found a compressor w/ a side chain ( I use the API2500 in med thrust mode) can really be useful.
jsut roll the bass out of the sidechain and your good.

also:

you are probably the ONLY GUY IN THE ROOM who thinks there might be too much bass!!!

but then again. . . .

[RhOdEz]

Originally Posted by balanceman

also:

you are probably the ONLY GUY IN THE ROOM who thinks there might be too much bass!!!

but then again. . . .

LOL

[lucey]

Multiband comp/lim (although I dont master with them)

If you dont have the patience for 0:30 with a Finalizer then maybe the Drawmer or Tube Tech multibands will get you there in 0:15

[busytbp]

Originally Posted by lucey

Multiband comp/lim (although I dont master with them)

If you dont have the patience for 0:30 with a Finalizer then maybe the Drawmer or Tube Tech multibands will get you there in 0:15

I go with the Drawmer S3

[dbbubba]

It isn't a case of too much bass/boom going to the subs, but a case of the low end causing the pair of dBx 160x to compress to much. This causes the high end stuff to "duck" and the top end disappears while the "kick" is sounding. It is just huge pumping!

I am sorta' against using something like the Finalizer because I can't have a :30 second (or any gap) in the show. In fact, if the program (the track in this case) has too much low end the Finalizer is going to be have to be tailored to process it or things could be crazy.

I don't get a sound check although it would help! The acts seems to be more concerned about getting to hang out in the V.I.P. section of the club. They don't materialize on the stage until they are ready to perform. I am just handed a CD and I hand them the mics... off we go! I can dial it in pretty quick, but I am set up on the side of the stage and hearing the main array is hard to do. Just fighting the crowd to get out front is hard enough!

When you are popping 10Kw into a speaker array you don't want any surprises!
The general rule is to have twice the wattage provided by the amps than your drivers will accept. This is for ample headroom. This is common practice in sound reinforcement and it is how we have this rig set up. In other words, the Crown 3600 is feeding four 500W 18" drivers per side, so it can blow them really quickly. Compound this with the fact that I am running the rig hard and the material is bass heavy by nature.

The dBx DriveRack will work as a multiband compressor, but everything is buried in submenus, so setting things on the fly is out of the question. In fact, the protection provided by limiters (as oppssed to compression) on each of the output bands is seriously compromised by excessive low end. In otherwords, you have to have stuff close on the front end or things downstream get crazy!

I am going to set the rig up in our warehouse and run some CDs and crank the low end. I'll just have to build in a contingency factor.

The real delima is that I will soon start sending a freelance engineer out to do these shows because I'll be too busy. With this much low end and at the SPL levels that they expect (this is why I'm there in the first place!) it is a recipe for blown drivers if you don't watch what you are doing! Re-conning eight subs will eat up the money the show generates in one night. It makes the gig not worthwhile! REALLY QUICKLY, YOO!

Thnaks for the ideas guys.

Danny Brown

[Samc]

In this life I mix rap, both in the studio and live, and yes, the problems you are having stem from the way the system is set-up and the way you are mixing the live vocals with the prerecorded tracks.

I'll get into more details about the above but there are a couple of things I wanted to point out first.

First of all PA systems, or any reproduction system for that matter must be set up to sound good in the space they are in period. They should not be set-up based on the type of music that will be played! and it doesn't matter if the system is 10 or 10,000 Watts. Think about it, do mastering engineers reset their systems based on the genre of the music they're mastering.

Also, When PA guys start messing around with the speaker processor, it makes me very nervous. They were already set-up by the very engineers who designed the systems in controlled environments and using very sophisticated tools, why the heck they allow anyone to mess around with these things is beyond me. Making willy-nilly adjustments to crossover points etc is always a disaster waiting to happen.

Is there a standard for bass content in rock, pop, jazz or classical music....NO. Bass, or the low frequency content of rap music is not any more "all over the place", or devoid of standards than rock or any other type of music, there is just more of it.......lots more of it, that's all.

No soundcheck on a playback gig should not be a problem, especially if you know the rig and the room well. Reggae bands (the kings of big bass) are notorious for not sound checking and that's mostly what I do live. A full band (sometimes with multiple vocalists), in a different venue every night, on a different PA everynight and never a sound check.

Here are some simple and general steps to coping with the problem you described.


Please set the system processor back to the factory default and then set-up the F.O.H. and monitors to sound good in the club before the doors open.

Be careful how you set the system comps., from your description of the problem it seems that your system comps may not be set properly. Either the threshold is set too low, or the attack is set too fast, or a combination of both. The comp should just be compressing the peaks, this takes seconds if you know what you're doing. If you need more compression, use the ratio, and don't forget that the more you want to dig in with the compressor is the more the settings will depend on the song itself.

To be really "stylin" I would insert a stereo comp on the LR of the music, and another mono comp on the live vox. This allows a lot more dynamic control without one affecting the other. The inserted comp and the channel EQ (if it's any good), can go a long way in bringing even the biggest bottom ends into line. The mix ratio between the live vox and the recorded music might also need some revision. We're talking just mere seconds here.


And last but not least, please make sure you have enough subs and amplification for the necessary "OOMPH" factor. If your system is running close to the limit, you do not have enough subs and power. 10,000Watts of power might seem like a lot, but depending on the size/capacity of the club and the type of clientele, that could get swallowed up easily. I've seen this problem before when PA guys who don't understand, or underestimate what levels they need to get to before the "OOMPH" kicks in, try to compensate by boosting the lows, which can in turn lead to the problem you described.

Just as a reference, I've done gigs that had 30,000Watts just in the side-fills alone.

[dbbubba]

I have been building and operating p.a. rigs for over thirty years Sam.
I know how to configure every part of a p.a.
I was looking for some standards in how CDs SHOULD sound.
Of the six acts I have done at this club, five were fine.
The sixth's CD had a giant amount of low end.

The dBx DriveRack doesn't come preset for my amp/speaker configuration.
It is designed to be configured to your particular set up.
I got with Renkus Heinz and we researched the parameters of their Smart Crossovers.
I know how to set up sound systems.
I don't make willy nilly adjustments.
The fact that you don't think anyone can set up a dBx Driverack tells me that you don't have much experience yourself.

Thanks for the "help."

By the way... are you the guy who blew THIRTY 18" drivers TWICE on Usher's monitor rig within two weeks back about two years ago?
That guy was an expert, too.
His A S S got fired pretty quick.

Danny Brown

[ramjet]

hi

i will add my 2cents worth if you don't mind.

if it was me i think that my "quick fix would be to put the subs on an aux.

i personally don't do this and i don't enjoy the way it sounds BUT it might get you out of trouble

cheers ramjet

[Samc]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I have been building and operating p.a. rigs for over thirty years Sam.
I know how to configure every part of a p.a.

I'm sure you know everything there is to know about PA's Danny.

I was looking for some standards in how CDs SHOULD sound.

There is no such thing as a standard CD sound. Every CD I have sounds different, even two CD's from the same band will sound different, and it doesn't matter what type/genre of music it is.

The dBx DriveRack doesn't come preset for my amp/speaker configuration.
It is designed to be configured to your particular set up.
I got with Renkus Heinz and we researched the parameters of their Smart Crossovers.

My point was that once it has been dialled in properly, there should be no reason to re-adjust ctrossover points. Especially under the notion that different types of music require a different set-up.

By the way... are you the guy who blew THIRTY 18" drivers TWICE on Usher's monitor rig within two weeks back about two years ago?
That guy was an expert, too.
His A S S got fired pretty quick.

I have no idea how this is going to help you but NO, I'm not that guy. We do agree on one thing though, I'm pretty sure he's an "I don't need any advise I know everything there is to know about PA's type of guy".

I do invite you to try all the advice that was given (including those I gave) and see what works for you. But I can promise you this strapping a multi-ban