Looking for mastering?.... Really? Looking to sucker....

[RedTuxedo]

As a mastering engineer and full time music engineer of over 20 years, I live the hustle it takes to make a living in this crazy industry. I still have faith in it despite what many claim to be a dying cause...

But what really irks me is the feeling that there are people asking for their tracks to be mastered, offer "trial trax"/"examples" to be returned after mastering, and when the we master them and send back snippets, poof, no communication, nada...!!!

It makes me feel like they were hoping that someone would master their tracks, send full tracks back, and they could relish in the fact that they got a professional service for free.

Am I alone here?

I rarely send back full songs, unless I get great communication from an artist/client, faded in - faded out snippets...

Why would any professional do anything else than that?

I bet 95% of the time newbies are looking for some free services.

I would recommend that a sticky be put on this topic area that helps the seekers of services and the service providers the understanding that your efforts are worth something, even if they are cheap or free... that should be stated in the request, and at least communicated between the potential artist/client relationship that is being developed.

I'll confess to doing things for free in hopes of gaining a new client. Many times it's ended up being a fantastic relationship.

[ALS]

I second the motion for a sticky.

[jaglesis]

while i dont master i do feel like alot of people try get the most for there money, if that is taking your work and not paying for it..

i also second a sticky, nice place where masters/mixers can post there website/services on offer, people can discuess great relationships formed with these amazing artists and hopefully us gearsluts can find new contacts within the community

[CJ Mastering]

I 3rd that motion. I never have jumped to master someone looking for a free sample in here, yet (a little busy now) but I did learn my lesson with giving a full version. You'll only fool me once. When it happened to me, I felt really used..
Now, I only give 30 to 50 samples to new clients. If your known to me, then thats another story.

I can see the potential for abuse with this and thats why I like what your purposing Red Tux.

I would even go a step further and say we are only allowed to give 30 second mastering samples..
CJ

[JustinW]

Good idea on the sticky, I know a few people who would love a resource like that.

About the other part of your post:

I am not in the mastering field, but with game audio, when bidding for a contract, composers are not always compensated for speculative demos. And I am talking about well established game companies.

Seems to happen quite often that clients want to sample the goods, even when there are a ton of demos on one's site.

In your case if someone non established asked this, I would probably say no, or supply them with a snippet that played through a flash player on my site, so they couldn't even have that for free.

[diogo_c]

Couldn't agree more with all you guys. Make it a sticky. thumbsup

[leftright]

Yes it's a good idea to setup a standard form for this "where to" section!

1. It start here from the request.. often (if ever) no answer!!
My opinion is that a link to the desired mastered track (or sample of it) should be established from scratch...

2. Samples or full song delivery? I mean the work and time spent is practically the same!! So I think that the minimum of respect to our work, is to receive feedbacks and answers... Even negative or positive..

I know it's a bit work to setup this, but most of us professional will become tired at the end...

[therealbigd]

I send back full songs to people, but once a minute I put a jingle that I made over the song. This just makes it unusable but they can still hear the song in full.

Just a thought.

[MASSIVE Master]

I don't want to sound negative, but I just wish they (potential clients) would do a little R&D and then maybe *request* samples from the ones they're interested in working with.

These "cattle calls" are pretty ridiculous... Find a few people that you like and go.

[Red Mastering]

Originally Posted by RedTuxedo

As a mastering engineer and full time music engineer of over 20 years, I live the hustle it takes to make a living in this crazy industry. I still have faith in it despite what many claim to be a dying cause...

But what really irks me is the feeling that there are people asking for their tracks to be mastered, offer "trial trax"/"examples" to be returned after mastering, and when the we master them and send back snippets, poof, no communication, nada...!!!

It makes me feel like they were hoping that someone would master their tracks, send full tracks back, and they could relish in the fact that they got a professional service for free.

Am I alone here?

I rarely send back full songs, unless I get great communication from an artist/client, faded in - faded out snippets...

Why would any professional do anything else than that?

I bet 95% of the time newbies are looking for some free services.

I would recommend that a sticky be put on this topic area that helps the seekers of services and the service providers the understanding that your efforts are worth something, even if they are cheap or free... that should be stated in the request, and at least communicated between the potential artist/client relationship that is being developed.

I'll confess to doing things for free in hopes of gaining a new client. Many times it's ended up being a fantastic relationship.

You are not alone!
I agree with you 100%,
I don't give people whole song, 90 sec is enough to make up your mind, but what really annoys me, is fact that there's no even 'thank you', or, 'kiss my a$$'....
and I tell you what, those lads are looking for a 'free lunch',
what is worst they don't even give rat about time you spent on it,
don't bother to thank you, even if they decide to go somewhere else....
reason is simply - in most cases they want have pro service for free,
tutt
shame .....

[Sunbreak Music]

You teach people how to treat you. Since my time is worth something, I don't give it away. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Jesse Graffam]

So basically what's being proposed is a rule against people posting complete tracks for mastering in here.

I'm all for that, as well as making a LOCKED sticky explaining why it should be this way, and also the other "usual" stuff like what a post should consist of - optional audio file, what your goals of mastering are, style of music, etc, etc - and that people should wait a week or so for submissions, and how to properly review the masters in multiple locations, what impact a difference in loudness makes for comparisons, etc, etc...

I don't partake in "where-to" much (3 weeks since i've had a spare second this time around), but it seems like a good idea.

[Darwin James]

Originally Posted by RedTuxedo

I bet 95% of the time newbies don't understand mastering.

Fixed.

[spicemix]

An engineer's policies are schooled by hard knocks.

Ergo, no audio goes out without cleared payment.

End of story.

[dave-G]

Really?

So ... you're saying if you do a test-master, you're willing to lose the work you've done by their choice to work with someone else, but you're not willing to lose the work you've done by them "stealing" it and secretly using it without paying?

I mean ... don't get me wrong, the notion that someone would disingenuously milk 'free' test masters and release the results is not cool, but your time is spent and gone regardless.

I do test-masters for prospective clients when asked, and always deliver the full song exactly as I'd ship it if it was paid. This is what I would want if I were in their shoes, shows confidence and the kind of trust you'd want reciprocated, and has led to far more good clients and good work than disappointments or shenanigans.

-dave

[spicemix]

I used to have this idea that offering guarantees showed confidence...like it does in retail.

But this ain't retail, it's artisan services. And a client I trust the judgment of shocked me when he insisted that offering a guarantee actually showed a lack of self-confidence.

I have come around to agreeing fully. The ultimate self-confidence is the requirement that you always be compensated for your time. That if something's unsatisfactory with the result it must not be your fault (most likely it is the client's bad taste, though it could be they hired someone better, in which case, why did they waste your time?). That your prior body of work is all the assurance you need to supply.

Do any of the top ten (unit sales) ME's offer unpaid demos of their services? It seems desperate to even suggest it. I know most of the marginal ME's are desperate.

[Ben F]

Your client list and past work should be enough for the client to make a decision. I have done the rare 'shoot out' with other MEs but that was generally to secure labels work, not a one off track.

[dave-G]

Peter,

Though you make a good point towards a general business and billing philosophy, I'd have to disagree with painting the whole concept of test-tracks as "desperate". IME, there's good reason it's common in the profession as a new-client courtesy among mastering engineers/studios whose client-base includes independents and smaller labels.

I don't do a ton of them myself; prior body of work or word of mouth are indeed the starting point for most clients. However, I don't rule it out. On those occasions I do a song for someone, it almost always bears out to be a good investment, and good business for me. That track can be a key tangible thing that allows a prospective client to feel a justification for changing from (or paying more than) their usual choice for mastering.

As long as it's good business, it's good business. I just don't see treating the outgoing tracks with such overt paranoia, if you're going to do it at all.

Cheers,
-dave

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by dave-G

As long as it's good business, it's good business.

I agree... if your building your client base by doing a test master here and there, how is that bad or desperate? If you have some time in your schedule it's no harm , no foul. No ones keeping score...

[MusicMasterer]

I like the idea of putting rediculous jingles in the samples, you can't give a venue a sample of your music that makes you look/sound like an idiot or post it on the myspace type sites either.

[ed littman]

Originally Posted by SafeandSound

I did a "where to" test master recently and I did not get the job (and others I did), but the guy mentioned that I was pipped at the post, which for me is fine, positive and nice to know I was close, it's how it goes.


cheers

He He,
I got the same response by the same guy. I did however ask for comments on what was the deciding factor with no response.

Ed

[trmchenry]

Originally Posted by MusicMasterer

I like the idea of putting rediculous jingles in the samples, you can't give a venue a sample of your music that makes you look/sound like an idiot or post it on the myspace type sites either.

thumbsup I think I'm going to steal this idea. Now all I have to track down is a copy of the Meow Mix audio.

[WBM]

How is possible since you guy's are so smart (Me's) you followed this stupid section posts? where all this dummy musicians try to take an advantage out of Me's, give me a break with this mastering business is not business.

No money, and to many doing it at home, not need of something sound better than a mix, when people in the industry are deaf, starting for any ceo for a mayor or indie labels today.
Dude move on, go get a job that they pay you for what you real worth.