Picture Editing Facility?

[Whitecat]

In answer to your first question, yes, picture editing is still 'post-production.' Anything after the picture is finished being acquired by the camera up to and including making the masters, whether it be striking 35mm release prints or encoding for mobile phones, is post.

In answer to your second question: in my experience, yes, sometimes, moreso in the 'midrange' but at the low end of things usually not correctly if at all (read: untreated room, poor monitoring, sometimes the picture editor actually has to do the mix, etc). Usually that's because of budgets, and for simple things, it can work out fine. Sometimes when a low-end place has to do things for broadcast though they can be bitten in the a** for skimping on their audio post capabilities.

[woods]

But in general - are film post houses and audio post production houses operated as separate entities?

[Whitecat]

I'm not sure there is an 'in general.' I've seen facilities that do both and I've seen facilities that focus on just one or the other. My day job is as a cameraman, mainly, although I've worked as a picture editor and a composer in the recent past. I have four "main" production company clients who tend to fill my schedule - of those, one has in-house good picture facilities and very poor, limited audio capability. Another has in-house sound only but farms out all their picture editing. The other two farm out everything, sometimes to 'seperate' picture/sound facilities, sometimes to the same one depending on the project.

The days of having big, dedicated facilities are declining as well - editors [and sound mixers] who have their own kit and suite are often hired, unattached to any company other than their own freelance status, because they can do the job.

Edit: forgot to mention that audio post for picture (esp. mixing) is often done at recording studios - some well-known studios are outfitted for mid-to-high-end audio post. Abbey Road & Alchemy Soho in London would be about the first two in the phone book. But of course no picture post is done at those places.

[woods]

The reason I inquire on "Film Post vs Audio Post" is because I come strictly from recording studio background. You may have seen another thread that I am investigating a Post Production scenario.

Is a Picture Editing Facility the same as a Film Post Production House?

What are the differences in equipment requirements between a facility that is mainly a Film Post House and one that is mainly an Audio Post House?

W

[minister]

Originally Posted by woods

But in general - are film post houses and audio post production houses operated as separate entities?

hard to answer this, really... but in general, kind of, yeah....

most high-end video and commerical video post houses have audio post edit suites. though, some do not.

here, some things are separate. some are not. some audio places start in video places and move out.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by woods

Is a Picture Editing Facility the same as a Film Post Production House?

Yes, essentially. That Film Post Production house may or may not have proper audio post capabilities, and if they do, the scale of which may vary.

Originally Posted by woods

What are the differences in equipment requirements between a facility that is mainly a Film Post House and one that is mainly an Audio Post House?

A film post house needs kit for cutting picture and ingest/output of the variety of formats they intend to work with. This could range from a Macbook Pro with a DV camcorder and Final Cut Pro to a multi-room facility with Avid Symphonies, network RAID storage (you need a sickening amount of disk space if you're onlining HD) - and decks for everything from HDV to HDCAM SR. They need excellent video monitoring (just as with sound you need excellent audio monitoring) - brodcast-accurate monitors. The computers often need specialised hardware to handle the variety of high-bandwidth codecs they may have to deal with - outside of Avid systems, Blackmagic and Kona make video hardware that process the information.

In some cases they will also have specialized grading/colouring facilities - this can be done within Avid or Final Cut Pro, or it might be Final Touch, or it might be Da Vinci or Flame. Film post can also involve VFX, so they need workstations for doing graphics. In some cases this is simple - I've seen one place that for a while was doing it on After Effects on an iMac, as it was simple titles and FX. This might, instead, at a higher-end place be a Maya or a Shake system (or systems), or at very high-end places, all proprietary software.

Finally, these places need good screening facilities for clients - I've seen 'screening theatre' type setups with HD projectors, and I've seen it as simple as a big, big plasma screen in a room with a couple comfortable sofas.

Audio post needs good audio hardware - see other threads for more info on this - and good rooms. How much/what level of stuff is needed will depend on the type of work - high-end feature films need power, power, power as they run a dizzying number of tracks. Corporate spots or web vids, not so much. I won't elaborate on that as it's covered, but I will note that you will need some ingest and output facilities in a proper commercial audio post facility - you'll need a good monitor for the picture (big-screen TV is fine, as long as it's in sync!) - and you'll need a way to intake all the video formats and ideally do layback as well. So you'll need to see what kinds of work you'll do to figure out what kind of decks you need - digibeta is still quite common, but there's more and more HD coming up, and those decks are NOT cheap.

Hope that helps...

[introvert]

You will find some post houses that do both, others that only do certain things. I've found that in TV commercial work, it's often beneficial for a post shop to do both in the same house. It makes it easier for the ad producer to get things done (he doesn't have to drive to another place to do the audio, then come back to check picture cuts, and back again, etc). Not sure if this is different for those doing TV shows instead of commercials. Someone else would have to chime in.

As far as equipment, the unifying thing between edit and audio post are the decks and sync issues involved. Generally shops operate with DigiBeta, D5 or some similar format, and both edit and audio need to have the capability to capture footage from the tape and then lay back video or audio (respectively) to the tape.

In audio terms, this means that you need to have some sort of video capture device so that you can capture the footage and play it back without wearing out the tape, you need to have a box that will allow you to sync with and control the deck in question (some audio systems will do this easily, others will require some creativity), and you will need to configure your wiring so that you can lay off to the deck (generally four audio tracks, two for the stereo mix and two for splits if requested).

Keep in mind, though, that all of what I'm saying comes from a background in advertising. I've heard of indie film work being done quite differently. I know people that have been given quicktimes with timecode burn-ins, and been told to simply send back WAV stems of their mix when completed (I've done this once or twice). I know of one facility that does a similar thing with adverts... the editor will spit out a quicktime, the audio guy will pick it up from the server and do his mix, then he will ship the WAVs back to the editor who will lay it off for him.

There are many ways to skin this cat. Hopefully someone else can offer a bit more than I have here. But I think that you need to identify what your typical client will be, define a workflow that will meet their needs and make your life relatively un-hellish, and examine what you need to purchase/configure in order to prepare yourself for it.

[introvert]

terminal3 - thanks for the good stuff too. I didn't want to get into all that, and now you've saved me from having to do it.

And on the subject of big screen in an audio room for the client, be careful of those lovely big-screen plasmas. You will almost certainly have to set up some sort of frame delay to lock them up.

[philper]

Where I live post facilities tend to specialize in either picture editorial or sound, unless the facility is owned by a company that acting as the producer of the programming they work on. Lots of smaller jobs have their audio finished in the Avid or FCP system, for better or worse. Usually the video edit houses don't want to bother with the investment in the personnel and floor space to add audio to their capabilities (there have actually been some places that had audio rooms and tore them out to make room for another picture edit suite). There is a lot more work around for picture editorial than for audio post.

Philip Perkins

[Henchman]

The big problem here Wood, is that you essentially have some folks doing Indy films, with about 100k to spend, thinking they can save money on their Audio/Video needs by buying gear and doing it in-house.

The big problem with alot of these film makers, is they have the idea that they are getting basically overcharged for their audio and video needs, since, in their minds, the gear has becaome so much cheaper.

What they don't understand is that a PT's LE and a FCP set-up does not a post facility make.

A fullblown PT's set-up to do a proper film mix on is going to run you $100k.
That would be a single Icon set-up.
You still don't have a room to put it on, or any speakers, projector or screen.
And we're not even talkign about ADR and Foley rooms.

Video is even more expensive.

You say you coem form a music studio background.
How ar couold you go with $100k, no gear, and no room, towards building a mid-range tracking/mixing studio for mid to high end clients?
Not ar.
$100k will get you a nice built studio in a 2 car garage.

But Muut lang won't be working there.

They're better off finding good, cheaper facilities to do their work in.
But it sounds to me like they want a Bentley on a KIA budget.

[woods]

I understand. Here's the variables you would not know. I have some gear already that would contribute to the budget. 4 Genelecs. Protools HD and all the mics and pres ever need. The other variable is these folks wondered what 100k would do for them? They didn't say it was a ceiling.
w

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by woods

I understand. Here's the variables you would not know. I have some gear already that would contribute to the budget. 4 Genelecs. Protools HD and all the mics and pres ever need. The other variable is these folks wondered what 100k would do for them? They didn't say it was a ceiling.
w

The actual PT's HD is a very small part of the budget.
You'll need a proper control surface, and i you want to be in the range of a decent midrange facility, you'll want an Icon set-up.
And again, everything pales into comparison when you start looking at the cost of building a decent sized Mix theatre, ADR rooms and foley rooms.
Ask DR. Sound how much his room cost.


I don't know anyone that uses Genelcs for Film/TV mixing.

[georgia]

FWIW ( and it's probably not worth much)

here's a real world example:

I wanted to open a post facility...I had $20,000 USD... So I started with a protool rig in my living room and a couple friends...We did sound editing, bought a couple libraries, and recorded ADR/Foley in the bathroom and closet. We got a few films done that way and they came out ok, considering...

We starting getting asked to do bigger projects and more of them. So we found a friend that would give us a space in their studio for free in return for maintenance support.. We moved in and bought 2 more protool rigs, and built a booth... We started doing more films and better films... We added some more gear...

More films started to drop in now people wanted us to mix their features, even if we didn't sound desgin them.. So we spent a lot of our income renting other peoples dub stages.. SO.. we built our own. We converted the 1 room that was a our space into a dub stage / editing room / office / everything still in one room ( we were climbing all over each other)... But it worked for us for 3 years...

Word of mouth grew, and business grew... people would bring in films that were badly edited... We offered to fix them as part of the deal.. I started editing films... A friend loaded us an AVID... We started playing with FCP... We got better, our gear got better, I got better, and our clients got bigger and more started to drop by... We even had this guy from Minnesota come to us to mix! Go figure, of all the places and all the gin joints in the world Minister came to mix with us! ( I was floored actually, but don't tell him that! )

We moved again...added a big-ass console and built a real ( but modest ) dub stage.. Set up a picture editing room, a Real Foley pit/ADR space... added editing space, added an AVID of our own, added a real FCP HD editing rig, grew our libraries, and added video decks and all the assorted gear that goes with them.

So today, i'm both a picture editor and sound editor. I own my place so when you hire me, you get my toys and team as part of the whole deal. We offer picture and sound services for film and broadcast... I've edited a bunch of indie shorts and features and i'm currently editing B films destined to limited threatrical and/or DVD release. I've been asked to edit a few films ( both sound and picture ) in the next 2 years that are finally A Films, ones that i'm willing to beat you will actually get to watch!.... It's taken me 10 years of painful work and living on hotdogs, mac & cheese and toast...doing low and no budget work, dodging the landlord and working 15 hours a day to make ends meet... But it's been worth it.
My small place has a modest capability, and what I consider required, to offer low cost but, professional level services...There is no way i could ahve done this with $100k

I have a bunch of toys including...
2 FCP HD rigs on MacPros
4 LE protool rigs
2 Protool TDM rigs
a huge mixing desk in a dub stage of moderate size with DOLBY and DTS approvals
a small Foley pit/ADR room
and a bunch of misc sound gear and sound libraries
I also have unlimited access to 2 SONY XPRI HD uncompressed editing stations
I have an HDCAM deck, DVcam, deck, 2 beta decks, a DVCpro50 deck, and some misc video gear..

I need all this stuff to deliver films fast and cost effectivly while maintining quality at the level I strive for...and, This is all in my apartment in NYC... ( except the SONY XPRI stations, they belong to a friend who lets me use them in return for editing & shooting support)

This stuff cost a lot of money, and if I had to just go out a buy it today, there is no way I could build a place like this for less than $1m USD, NOT to mention putting a team together and gaining valuable experience along the way. I put this place together project by project... I would throw almost 90% or my project budget back into my business... so in the beginning there was NO chance of a paycheck...Even today it's tight due to smaller and smaller budgets and people doing stuff at home.

I guess what i'm trying to offer, is that it's kinda hard to just "open" a post place, unless you have amazingly deep pockets to purchase gear, hire staff, do marketing & sales, and manage the burn rate... It's not about building it, it's about building it well enough to get people to come and running it the day after.

We build design & studios on the side for the rich and famous and even with these guys its tough to explain how much it's going to cost to maintain and manage the studio once its built...and these are private facilities that are not dealing with "the public"....

I won't say don't do it. But I will say take some time and work up a real business plan and figure out what it is you really want to do and just how much it's really going to cost to build and operate.

Also don't forget $100K can get you close to $1,000,000 in equipment if you lease stuff. And leasing stuff for a business in generally better than buying it. The bottom line is cash flow and the cost of money.


cheers
geo

[minister]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I don't know anyone that uses Genelcs for Film/TV mixing.

yes you do. you just don't know THAT you do.

mark is right.

just having a PT HD rig, some mics, and pre's and then throwing in $100k will not land you really good film mixing gigs. not only do you need a big control surface, you need someone who knows how to run it and someone who knows how to mix dialogue for the film, some one who knows how to mix FX and Music, and cut backgrounds and do foley and design and all that stuff... and, it takes years to learn how to do that well.

i realize that you are on a fact finding mission, and it may be that the investors have modest ambitions... but don't under estimate what it might take. (i also realize that you are asking the question so you can find out). no one is chastising you for finding out or trying. and heck, go for it. people do it. we are just giving you a strong dose of reality. for instance : who is going to design the room? the HVAC? pour floors? install the walls correctly? who is going to install and calibrate the system? who will maintain it? will you be running film? just digital? if it is a picture facility, can you afford the D5 and HD CAM decks? s copes, etc? who will manage the machine room? a chief engineer?

if you come from a music background, are you the mixer/engineer? do you know all the deliverables? will you be doing Dolby Printmastering? do you know what that is? will you also offer DTS? if not, then you will have to recommend that the film be finished at another facility -- so, what good is that? have you ever mixed a film? do you know the broadcast specs? all these things can be learned, we are not born with this knowledge. but, who will teach you? will you learn on your own, as i did? are you prepared for years pf poverty, then? are the facility owners?...while you learn on their dime?

i know you said 100k is not a ceiling and they want to know what they will get with that. well...you could build out for 100k and not have anything left over for gear. or you could spend 100k on gear and not have anything left over for a build out. maybe you do the work yourself.

if you can find a good picture editor who can bring in clients...then maybe it is a viable option. if not, well... if you do a mix facility, you will need a good mixer who can bring in clients. if not, well... then you have to advertise. prove yourself. so you have spent your 100K. where are the clients? how will you make the monthly nut? corporate work? commercial? radio? bands? magazine ads? direct mail?

let's say you land one good gig. great. your busy for a few months. and then....nothing. tumbleweeds. phone call inquiries. nothing. investors get restless. the highly paid engineer gets a better off from another facility. a few months after he leaves you get another gig : damn! how did he setup this room? how did he make these dupes?

all these things can be dealt with... for sure. and they do get dealt with. everyday. but they are the reality. and sometimes the dark reality. i am not saying you won't be successful. it just won't be easy or smooth or steady.

[minister]

Originally Posted by georgia

We got better, our gear got better, I got better, and our clients got bigger and more started to drop by... We even had this guy from Minnesota come to us to mix! Go figure, of all the places and all the gin joints in the world Minister came to mix with us! ( I was floored actually, but don't tell him that! )

Well, Dolby Print Master. We don't have that here. ... and, you were the only one who responded ...he he.. well, someone did after i already talked to you... and LA seemed so far...

what i did was design and mix the film at my place and then take it there to get the stuff necessary for a 35MM surround print.

it was fun and Georgia made it easy and was more than willing to help!

so, yes, you can call Georgia if you need help with a Dolby or DTS printmaster, or you just need a bigger stage on the East Coast. you can mix/pre-mix at your place and then send it or travel to her for finalizing.

then hire me to write the music and do the sound design.

[introvert]

One of my favorite things to say is "I'd take Bob Clearmountain on a Mackie 1202 over a Full Sail grad on a Neve." The point? The engineer behind the gear is a significant portion of the result.

I wouldn't expect to land a lot of gigs working in a little room with a PT LE setup. But you might be surprised at what you can do. The game industry has proven that to me... they give us minimal budget and expect Hollywood-level results, and while we don't always quite make it, we've learned how to push our gear far harder than it was ever intended to go.

Geo's got it right... start small and work your way up. For $100k you should be able to equip yourself to work on low budget stuff. As you make money, you grow, and then you start bagging the bigger clients. It all depends on what you're doing.

I've got about $100k worth of gear in my room, and I'm working on two big budget Xbox 360 games. I'm part of a team, but the other two guys and girl are not working with much more than I have. But I can tell you that the game is sounding absolutely wicked.

Oh, and don't think you HAVE to have a large control surface. It's helpful, yes, but you can work without one if you can keep things straight in your head and you get quick with your mouse. It's not easy, but it can be done. It won't wow the clients though. I get away with it because no one's watching over my shoulder while I work.

[1150post]

Originally Posted by minister

so, yes, you can call Georgia if you need help with a Dolby or DTS printmaster, or you just need a bigger stage on the East Coast. you can mix/pre-mix at your place and then send it or travel to her for finalizing.

then hire me to write the music and do the sound design.

Sounds good to me! With spring peeking its head up, I'm happy to sit on the roof and drink beer by the grill! Who wants to sit around and watch their own work all day anyway?



Cheers!

Brad Mc.

[davebl@dircon.c]

Originally Posted by woods

But in general - are film post houses and audio post production houses operated as separate entities?

Increasingly as time moves forward these facilites are combined. Most pot haousis offer a one stop shop aproach as it is difficult to seperate out the tasks in had to complete a production.

Video and Audio are seperate dicilpines, but so are seperate tasks with in those areas, that may be the following, but is not complete of definitive list.

Audio

Tracklay, Sound design, Foley, Dub.

Video

Creative edit, Conform, Special effects, compositing, Color Grade, Picture Finish.

Due to superb software such as Final Cut Studio of which the majority of television (and may be Features) are now cut. Much of the media is handled uncompressed, obviously including audio. As the tools become better and more intecgrated great creative value can be leveraged from such integration with in the tools available. in other words the combined skills to drive edit systems such as FCS are still emerging.

This in no way undermines the skills of a sound specialist but does offer a new breed of person who can have skills in both pictures and sound.

An interesting facet of handling media at it native resolution earlier in the creative process is that the finished product looks or can look quite different.

So to answer your question Post is and should be integrated and will become more so as time moves forward. There are some legacy specialist houses that still handle one or other specialist area. Im not sure what the buisness make up is in the US.

Im not sure if this helps but it is whats happening on the ground right now.

Dave

[minister]

Originally Posted by 1150post

Sounds good to me! With spring peeking its head up, I'm happy to sit on the roof and drink beer by the grill! Who wants to sit around and watch their own work all day anyway?



Cheers!

Brad Mc.

OKay, new plan:

Brad and I will either show with the elements or you guys will deliver the elements to Georgia. then Brad and I will sit on the deck and grill steaks and drink beer. Occasionally we'll lean back and shout, "Turn it Up!!" or, "More Bass!". ... "No, seriously, dude : flip the steak it's done. No, I am not being a wimp, i don't want it burned. Flip it!... THAT'S GREAT GEORGIA, MAYBE MORE HIGH END! ..no, really, dude, gimme that Grill Fork. Gimme the Grill Fork!! ..ah great, you spilled my beer!. just , great, Brad-uh! GEORGIA CAN YOU HAVE ONE OF YOUR INTERNS BRING OUT MORE BEER? .. seriously, dude, gimme the Fork! OW! what is wrong with you? that hurt! GEORGIA DO HAVE ANY BANDAGES? ..."

[georgia]

Sounds good to me... oh, sorry is this better? ( as I hit the remote control producer button while sitting on the deck drinking a beer... )

Don't forget AES is in NY this year so the WWAI AES POST BBQ is scheduled for that week!


cheers
geo

[1150post]

Originally Posted by minister

OKay, new plan:

Brad and I will either show with the elements or you guys will deliver the elements to Georgia. then Brad and I will sit on the deck and grill steaks and drink beer. Occasionally we'll lean back and shout, "Turn it Up!!" or, "More Bass!". ... "No, seriously, dude : flip the steak it's done. No, I am not being a wimp, i don't want it burned. Flip it!... THAT'S GREAT GEORGIA, MAYBE MORE HIGH END! ..no, really, dude, gimme that Grill Fork. Gimme the Grill Fork!! ..ah great, you spilled my beer!. just , great, Brad-uh! GEORGIA CAN YOU HAVE ONE OF YOUR INTERNS BRING OUT MORE BEER? .. seriously, dude, gimme the Fork! OW! what is wrong with you? that hurt! GEORGIA DO HAVE ANY BANDAGES? ..."

Tom,

You are hilarious! But I am quite certain that if it's my design work, then the only thing the mix will need will be more yellow. Georgia will need to keep that in mind and adjust accordingly.

Georgia,

I hope to make it to AES this year, but since I'm doing NAB/Vegas, I may have to let someone else do NYC.

For the record, Georgia throws a great party... rain or or shine! I'll regret not being able to attend if I don't make it up this year.

Brad Mc.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by introvert

Keep in mind, though, that all of what I'm saying comes from a background in advertising. I've heard of indie film work being done quite differently. I know people that have been given quicktimes with timecode burn-ins, and been told to simply send back WAV stems of their mix when completed (I've done this once or twice). I know of one facility that does a similar thing with adverts... the editor will spit out a quicktime, the audio guy will pick it up from the server and do his mix, then he will ship the WAVs back to the editor who will lay it off for him.

FWIW,

This is the way I've been doing it for years: editor sends a QT file w timecode burn, and individual audio stems (dialog/walla/music) and I assemble/edit/mix at this end.

When the mix is complete, I send stems back (via FTP) to insert into the timeline.

Real guerilla, but has never sunk one project, or posed any difficulties, 'cept for not having the decision makers in the same room at the same time.

That minor inconvenience can be resolved via phone/iChat etc...

cheers,