Finally did it. Switched to block/hourly from per song.

[RARStudios]

You all were right, hourly/block gets a better product.

Me = dumb for attempting per song. It makes it so hard to schedule things right when the band comes unprepared.

[Rick Sutton]

You = Learning

[therecordinghous]

i would never track on a "per song" basis. always been hourly. however, i do mix per song, but not without hearing the tracks first, or having tracked them myself. price is always based on what i hear.

[T_R_S]

You lawyer charges by the hour ....
and your mechanic....

[drBill]

Congrats. It's a good feeling to place a respectable value on what you do. Good for you, and good for your clients. Now.....if more people would wake up.

[Louderock]

There's a "Big Name" mixer who changed to a 'Rater Per Week' structure in the 90's. He did very well. Suddenly, it didn't matter that the band took 2 days to get back to him with the mix notes.

[mattg082]

I'm mostly mixing(no tracking) and charging per song. Problem with that is it takes the band a bit to get back to me and things can be at a stand still. Not fun when you depend on it. Do you guys charge hourly when mixing? How do you keep things in line in a situation like that? I keep just having problems with a few bands here and there. Very frustrating and nerve racking at times!

[88fingerz]

Originally Posted by mattg082

I keep just having problems with a few bands here and there. Very frustrating and nerve racking at times!

Dump those bands.

[RARStudios]

That is why I switched. I can't afford to do 30,000 edits. The customers were feeling like I was cheating them, even though I was up front about me doing "demo" quality. Even after I politely let them know that I was working for $8/hr, and that was slowly dwindling.

I let them know to get a song good, it will take 8 hours tracking and producing (at my level). Not tracking 8 songs in 20 hours. It costs more though.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by mattg082

Do you guys charge hourly when mixing? How do you keep things in line in a situation like that?

Yes.

Keep close track of your billable hours.

[in the red]

i guess you have to be in the position to charge hourly, meaning have a lot of client traffic!? although that would surprise me, as every studio/engineer is struggling these days...
me, i charge on a PER PROJECT basis! crazy? maybe. but i try to work to the highest standards, demo-quality my a**...
you see, every record i finish i consider to be my businesscard! and my baby, not only the bands baby.

[britdick]

Originally Posted by in the red

i guess you have to be in the position to charge hourly, meaning have a lot of client traffic!? although that would surprise me, as every studio/engineer is struggling these days...
me, i charge on a PER PROJECT basis! crazy? maybe. but i try to work to the highest standards, demo-quality my a**...
you see, every record i finish i consider to be my businesscard! and my baby, not only the bands baby.

i just finished a record that took 3 years. It's awesome. Paid me per song. Worth it.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by RARStudios

You all were right, hourly/block gets a better product.

Me = dumb for attempting per song. It makes it so hard to schedule things right when the band comes unprepared.

Per Project or Per Song always works in the artist's favor. Per Hour works in the engineer's...unless your hourly rate is paltry. But that's a different sort of dumb.

[ofie]

Originally Posted by in the red

as every studio/engineer is struggling these days...
.

not entirely true.

[woodnote]

Originally Posted by in the red

you see, every record i finish i consider to be my businesscard! and my baby, not only the bands baby.

You would assume this should go without saying. Which is kind of what makes it sad that it needs to be said.

[in the red]

i mostly do stuff i love. i don´t necessarily consider producing records to be a business, although i have to make money for sure! what matters to me more then the money is that i want to be proud of what i´m doing, i want the bands to be proud of the records we did together, and furthermore, that it pushes their carreer! you know, i have a kinda selfish approach to making records: i not only make them for the bands, but also for me. i want to get a hard-on when i listen to my records, i wanna dance and feel the emotion!

i don´t care about producing demos. been there, couldn´t be proud of the outcome, so it didn´t satisfy me. the little money i made with those demos didn´t help either.

[mattg082]

Yeah it really is in the bands favor charging by song or project. The thing is say you are just mixing. I've found some bands just show up when they want,take as long as they want with tons of excuses, ask for some type of demo they will analyze to hell and back even though it's not finished and things can get stuck. I'd be fine with it all if said band showed up on the agreed scheduling and no demos went out to the very final stage and things are 95% the way there with 1 revision a song to get that last 10% they want. I will never give early demos out again because I find all the time bands lock onto those as if they are the final mixes and ask for a billion revisions and months. When you put tardiness and revisions together it's no wonder it could take forever and drive anyone crazy... This band now gave me some decent music but low grade recordings. Took the time to sum everything through High end pres/conversion and do drum replacment and editing mistakes. It sounds night and day better, but these guys act like they expect a top 10 record or something. They have little money and i had no work this month so I took on their 5 diy home recorded songs for $550. They are really late on any payment as I did one song for them only already...really thinking of cutting these guys. They did leave their gear here so thought they wouldn't do that if they were serious...oh well.

I usually charge 1 day work per song, but you never know...I just say when it's done it's done.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RARStudios

It makes it so hard to schedule things right when the band comes unprepared.

Agreed, hourly is the way to go as in my experience the bands almost always come unprepared. I will usually let them give it their best shot for awhile but then tell them, "its cheaper for you you to practice at home".

[in the red]

one of my rules is: no demos, no ruffmixes before actual mix, unless their is a solid reason to do so! giving away ruff mixes just clouds the artists judgement, which in some cases isn´t that good anyway, lets face it! if you give away ruffs, it´s no wonder you have trouble during mixing, because the artist will have listened to the ruff over and over and they can no longer judge...

and if you decide to work on a per song or project basis, you better ask for a rate you feel comfortable with!!! if not, you have to drow a line! like joe barresi said in an interview: "you want me to make a testmix, you want me to work for free? FU** YOU!!". i love this phrase!

[Jules]

Hat off to the OP - I could never manage hourly if I was the producer..

[RARStudios]

I just contacted my 7 clients booked over the next 3 months to let them know my policy change. They all agreed it is smarter and were excited, only ONE got upset and backed out, everyone else wad totally cool with it!

Thank god. Haha, I thought they were going to back out and I'd have to rebook.

[feck]

I still do per song. Works very well for me. To each their own.

[telejustin]

I do a hybrid of this stuff. Generally speaking my basic rundown is:

Engineering = Hourly or day rate: I'm not in charge and it's not my decision when the project is done. You want more editing? No problem. You want a demo and to keep the costs down? Cool. Of course I encourage people to do it right and am honest about what I think it will take to reach their goals, but if it goes longer or they aren't prepared it's not my issue.

Producing = Project/song rate: I'm in charge. As a producer it's my responsibility to make sure they're prepared and/or to know how to get the best performance out of them. If it goes longer it's probably my fault. I explain up front, however, that if they suddenly decide they want an orchestra or to add significantly more work that's beyond our original scope, we have to renegotiate. This happened to me recently and I found myself even doing one of the string arrangements. It was fun and I'm proud of the project and the artist is thrilled. You don't get that result hourly. Plus, are you going to charge someone hourly for things like preproduction and rehearsals? The time you spend on the phone hiring session players and booking studios and dealing with mastering? Lawyers do that, but I don't think most musicians want to pay for 15 minute phone calls.

Mixing = Per song or project rate for a whole ep/record: Since I spend probably 60-70% of my days mixing this is a no-brainer. I mix unattended, stop for breaks frequently, sometimes start early or start late, and sometimes end early or late. I just mix until it's happening. If it's not happening it's my problem. How can I charge hourly if my first mix didn't hit the mark and I need to throw the faders down and start over? I'm proud of the fact that I rarely do recalls and this only started happening when I switched to song rates.

This stuff is so hard and if you're working with beginner bands or people with unpleasant personalities then work hourly or don't take them on. When you only put your name on stuff that you're proud of a lot changes. For me that's the most important thing. Have I screwed myself by working this way? Big time. Do I sometimes have down time or funky schedules? Totally. But it's worth it. This would all be a lot easier if I were a big name with a six-figure producer fee or four-figure mix fee, but at least I get to make music all day and not work at Jack In the Box (apologies to anyone who works there and does or doesn't love it).

[drBill]

Originally Posted by telejustin

It was fun and I'm proud of the project and the artist is thrilled. You don't get that result hourly.

Why?

I have a lot more fun hourly. My clients have been coming back....and back.....and back. Some for over 20 years. I'd guess that they are thrilled. I don't take on any project that I can't be proud of.

So it seems like I've met the criteria and I charge hourly. I get paid fairly. Client doesn't get overcharged.

It's all good.

In 99.99% of all "flat rate" deals, SOMEONE is being taken advantage of, or being overcharged, or shorted (whatever you want to call it). Either the client, or the engineer/studio. Prelim budgets never work out perfectly.

[Tony Shepperd]

Kudo's to those of you who can charge an hourly for a mix. I can't do it. Flat fee mixes work MUCH better for me.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

You lawyer charges by the hour ....
and your mechanic....

In Canada (and the UK & Oz, not sure about the US) lawyers charge by the six-minute increment... (the "unit")...

Would get to be a bit of a fiddle if the studio biz billed that way! "Hey, we're almost out of budget, but I can do six more minutes on this auto-tune pass if you want?"

[telejustin]

Originally Posted by drBill

Why?

I have a lot more fun hourly. My clients have been coming back....and back.....and back. Some for over 20 years. I'd guess that they are thrilled. I don't take on any project that I can't be proud of.

So it seems like I've met the criteria and I charge hourly. I get paid fairly. Client doesn't get overcharged.

It's all good.

In 99.99% of all "flat rate" deals, SOMEONE is being taken advantage of, or being overcharged, or shorted (whatever you want to call it). Either the client, or the engineer/studio. Prelim budgets never work out perfectly.

Cool. Yeah, I probably should have said "I" don't get that result hourly. As with everything here and with music, YMMV. Maybe we make different kinds of records or you've figured out a better way to work with clients on this stuff than I have. At the end of the day, however, I see a lot of local and indie bands with low budgets releasing really under-produced material where it's clear they weren't willing to spend a little extra time and money to do a better job and be more creative.

[RARStudios]

Originally Posted by telejustin

Cool. Yeah, I probably should have said "I" don't get that result hourly. As with everything here and with music, YMMV. Maybe we make different kinds of records or you've figured out a better way to work with clients on this stuff than I have. At the end of the day, however, I see a lot of local and indie bands with low budgets releasing really under-produced material where it's clear they weren't willing to spend a little extra time and money to do a better job and be more creative.

Exactly...that's the issue and after to explaining that to my clients, they were all more than happy to pay a little bit more. One band got unruly and started name calling. I found out they also weren't planning on paying unless they were completely satisfied, so I just did myself a HUGE favor by implementing this.

If a band doesn't want to spend a little bit on recording, they probably don't want to go anywhere with their music anyways. It costs a lot of money to make it in music, so why work with someone who wants to cut corners? Especially in the producers role. That person will record, a week later the band will break up, that's it, waste of your time (even if you got paid). Most independent and aspiring producers do it not for the money, but for a chance to work with a great up and coming artist. Money is a secondary thing that just so happens to come hand in hand with the job. Atleast that's why I do it. I know I'll do this the rest of my life, even if I have a day job. I love it, and now with hourly/block scheduling, I can make the songs brought to me THAT much better, I can work with more quality people, and I can be happy with work.


Just my 2 cents on the reason I switched.

Evan

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Kudo's to those of you who can charge an hourly for a mix. I can't do it. Flat fee mixes work MUCH better for me.

well tony, high end mixing is perhaps the ONE area where I would consider it. You're probably on your own during a mix, and then have to just please a couple of people. If you're working with long time clients, you have a good chance. If you have "limits" set on remixes within the flat price, even better.

Whatever works.....

But my experience with waiting for bands to show up, hoping they are well rehearsed, waiting for singers to "get in the mood", etc., etc.....I'm going to be on an hourly clock.

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by whitecat

In Canada (and the UK & Oz, not sure about the US) lawyers charge by the six-minute increment... (the "unit")...

Would get to be a bit of a fiddle if the studio biz billed that way! "Hey, we're almost out of budget, but I can do six more minutes on this auto-tune pass if you want?"

billing is to the next tenth of an hour for many people
workign on a govt contract requires you do it
lawyers do it
most hourly billing uses it

the fun comes when every fraction is billed up to the next tenth
funny how no time sheets show any coffee breaks or other interruptions - all time always gets billed to somebody
especially when lawyers are trying to get 2500-3000 hours a year total in billing (2000 is a normal 5 day & 8hr/day total)