How long are labels taking to pay invoices lately?

[Trakworx]

7 weeks after invoicing a pretty big Metal label (not "major", but not what I'd call "indie" either) and no word. I emailed 5 days ago but no answer yet. Work is still ongoing on this album. It's going to add up to a lot of $ in the end. I do not have a written contract with the label, but I have a long history with the band and took it on good faith.

Should I be worried?

Thanks!

J~

P.S. Sorry about the typo in the title! How do I fix that??

.

[evangelista]

No PO#'s, EVER. Universal pays the bill before anything leaves the studio, just like Joe Schmo does. It ain't 1998 no mo'.

[gogar]

Stop sending out ref mixes.

[Trakworx]

We're still in tracking. 'Have only sent one batch of refs so far. Final product is scheduled to be finished on July 14th. I'm considering invoicing them now for all the rest of the time booked so I can be paid before delivering the masters. I don't want to spoil the relationship, but I don't want to be a push-over either. 'Wondering how long is considered reasonable to wait these days before making a pest of myself...

J~

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Trakworx

Should I be worried?

I would be. But that's me. Personally, I'd tell the band what's going on, and let them know I need some cash, so we're not working for a week or two while I booked other cash paying sessions. That should get the wheels rolling....

Running a studio is not a charity. It's not a hobby. It's a business. If the company can't return a call or an email, and has not started payment......then, end of sessions here. After a stunt like that, I'd bill for the entire amount and wait to be paid before starting up again. Again, that's just me.

good luck!

Oh, to answer your original question - it can take 90+ days. But I wouldn't be going DEEP into sessions like you are without a contract, PO, and an agreement with payment schedules in place with the person who's writing checks.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by evangelista

No PO#'s, EVER. Universal pays the bill before anything leaves the studio, just like Joe Schmo does. It ain't 1998 no mo'.

So what happens if you are sending the work onto someone else like a mixer for a mix tomorrow?
No-go til the bill's paid?

Wish I could work like that....

Some things take 60 days or so, most is settled within 30.

Talk to the A&R guy, they can usually put a bit of pressure on accounts payable.

[toneguru]

Sony seemed to always take the longest. Sometimes over four months.

But they always paid... eventually.

If I recall correctly Arista and Interscope were relatively quick compared to Sony.

I have been out of the game since I moved up here to San Fran back in 2008 so I imagine things have changed a little.

Accts payable is a bitch in the best of times but in a recession you really have to be skeptical of the solvency of all clients and remain relentless in collections.

Good luck to you.

[Trakworx]

Another idea I have is to leave off the last note on every reference mix until the bill is paid in full. A "no bank note, no last note" policy. I hate to be like that though... Making the band deal with that because of the label would be a shame. I'll keep that as a last resort.

J~

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by toneguru

Sony seemed to always take the longest. Sometimes over four months.

But they always paid... eventually.

If I recall correctly Arista and Interscope were relatively quick compared to Sony.

I have been out of the game since I moved up here to San Fran back in 2008 so I imagine things have changed a little.

Accts payable is a bitch in the best of times but in a recession you really have to be skeptical of the solvency of all clients and remain relentless in collections.

Good luck to you.

I had the same experience with Sony, they paid but it was always 90 days. I was even working with someone in A&R on the projects I did for them. It didn't help much. To the op I'd talk to the label and get a timetable for when you get paid. Doing these other funny things like clipping the last note make you look like a schmuck.

[CJ Mastering]

For major labels, it takes between 1 month to 5 months

For indie labels, I dont give them the final master or mix until Im paid in full.

[evangelista]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

So what happens if you are sending the work onto someone else like a mixer for a mix tomorrow?
No-go til the bill's paid?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. I've had an exec pay me with their own credit card more than once. My policies are made known to them before any work begins. If they can't get it together, tough shit.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by evangelista

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. I've had an exec pay me with their own credit card more than once. My policies are made known to them before any work begins. If they can't get it together, tough shit.

Like I said "Wish I could work like that". That'd be the end of my career if I pulled that on a major over here. I'm sure they would pay but they'd never call again.
Indies are different of course. You never know if they are going to still be around in 30 days, so yeah, no money no tracks.

[Trakworx]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

To the op I'd talk to the label and get a timetable for when you get paid. Doing these other funny things like clipping the last note make you look like a schmuck.

Yes, I'm talking to the label, asking exactly that, but they're not talking back.

'Definitely hoping things don't get bad enough for me to have to make myself look like a schmuck. I'm saving that for this year's Halloween costume.

J~

[Trakworx]

Originally Posted by CJ Mastering

For major labels, it takes between 1 month to 5 months

For indie labels, I dont give them the final master or mix until Im paid in full.

Agreed. This is a case where the label is somewhere between indie and major. I don't think they're going to disappear (29 years in business), but this silent treatment is not encouraging...

5 months? Yikes, that won't fly!

J~

[CJ Mastering]

no, the silent treatment is very scary. You know they read your emails and they know they owe you money. The only reason for not answering is because they dont want to pay you or they cant pay you..

I would mail them a trusty certified letter from the USPS as your next step. If you have phone numbers. I would call them hourly and bug the shit out of them.

[evangelista]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Like I said "Wish I could work like that". That'd be the end of my career if I pulled that on a major over here. I'm sure they would pay but they'd never call again.
Indies are different of course. You never know if they are going to still be around in 30 days, so yeah, no money no tracks.

Well, I never miss a deadline. I'm never late. Generally over-deliver. Those who see value in that don't mess with me, the others I don't have time for anyway.

[work2do]

Majors on the 30 day accounting system: usually 45-60 days.

Indy: sometimes never. they are the worst. get your $ at end before anything is turned over.

[the_sonic]

Most majors, around 60 days. There are some lately that hit me in 30 days, but that has become rare as of late. Some have hit the 90 day mark, but rarely past that.

Indie labels... it's here, there, and everywhere. Some of the bigger indie's will hit me 30-45 days or so. Sometimes, they actually hit me sooner within days of the session end. Some have gone 120 days. That's when I hit them with a nasty letter, pay or get sued.

[kromagnon]

they r shiesty because more millions in the bank equals more interest equals better quarter sales equals more investors equals more money.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Gearslutz.com App

[ITJ]

I get 50% up front and the back 50 on the speculated last day.

There are some I'll not begin without 100% up front.

[paultools]

As I mentioned in another thread...

It can be argued that engineers are co-owners of the copyright to the sound recording that we help create.
If you take on a project, get the terms in writing (COD, PO-60, etc), and then the caveat that you reserve all rights until paid as agreed.

I had a company stiff me, and then shipped the album to the stores. I had my lawyer send a letter to their business affairs dep't suggesting copyright infringement, and they were very eager to "work things out".

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by paultools

It can be argued that engineers are co-owners of the copyright to the sound recording that we help create.

If the track was recorded on your gear by your (so far unpaid) work and sits on your hard-drive then technically you are the copyright holder. As it is your copy and you have to grant usage which you pretty much relinquish upon submission of the track.
So it is a tricky area.

I've never been stiffed by any labels in nearly 20 years though. Some bills have taken longer than others (over a year in a few cases), but that's the nature of this thing. It's the one offs that know they will never have to deal with you again that you have to watch.

[DJamesGoody]

Well you're lucky. I'm out over a year on TWO MAJOR PROJECTS. One for Ryko, one for Warner. OVER A YEAR on EACH! Of course, in retrospect, I shouldn't have handed over media, but one was a tracking project in which I had no choice but to hand it over.

The other was a mix project, where I got a deposit, but no back end. And of course, I brought the mixes to mastering under the premise that a check would greet me at the session. The check didn't greet me, but the record was mastered anyway, and here I am. My fault naturally, but none the more acceptable.

I will never extend ANY grace toward anyone anymore. I'm used to Warner taking 3 months, but over a year? Insanity.

This is getting ridiculous beyond acceptability. No longer should we have to live like this. It's been going on far too long, and it's the worst it has ever been.

The grand irony is that the broke indie bands, paying out of pocket, will pay me the day OF, and these are the people that really need a break.

[jkchuma]

Originally Posted by DJamesGoody

Well you're lucky. I'm out over a year on TWO MAJOR PROJECTS. One for Ryko, one for Warner. OVER A YEAR on EACH! Of course, in retrospect, I shouldn't have handed over media, but one was a tracking project in which I had no choice but to hand it over.

The other was a mix project, where I got a deposit, but no back end. And of course, I brought the mixes to mastering under the premise that a check would greet me at the session. The check didn't greet me, but the record was mastered anyway, and here I am. My fault naturally, but none the more acceptable.

I will never extend ANY grace toward anyone anymore. I'm used to Warner taking 3 months, but over a year? Insanity.

This is getting ridiculous beyond acceptability. No longer should we have to live like this. It's been going on far too long, and it's the worst it has ever been.

The grand irony is that the broke indie bands, paying out of pocket, will pay me the day OF, and these are the people that really need a break.

Your right but suing a poor indie band for your money won't get you anywhere.

At the same time, suing a label won't get you future work.

Sent from my Eris using Gearslutz.com App

[PopularDemand]

Originally Posted by paultools

It can be argued that engineers are co-owners of the copyright to the sound recording that we help create..

The engineer side of me says nice idea. The producer/writer side of me says the engineer is work for hire only; not a copyright holder. Which is the way it has always been. What if the song was recorded at home studio and then copyrighted before they went to your studio to clean up and redo parts or just come in to do a mix.

Originally Posted by MarkRB

If the track was recorded on your gear by your (so far unpaid) work and sits on your hard-drive then technically you are the copyright holder.

And if the song is already registered before they show up at your studio how can the engineer claim ownership when he did not write anything?

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by PopularDemand

And if the song is already registered before they show up at your studio how can the engineer claim ownership when he did not write anything?

Copyright relates to a specific recording or work. As in "I give you the right to copy this..."

An unpaid engineer/studio couldn't claim to have written the song and ask for publishing royalties for it, but they could claim to own the copyright of the recording.
Hence all the crappy "sound-a likes" that plague spotify etc...

I wouldn't like to contest it in court though, because it is such a grey area.

[paultools]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

If the track was recorded on your gear by your (so far unpaid) work and sits on your hard-drive then technically you are the copyright holder. As it is your copy and you have to grant usage which you pretty much relinquish upon submission of the track.
So it is a tricky area.

.

Whether you used your gear or it's on your hard drive or not does not matter (at least for a U.S. copyright claim)... if you wrote a song using a friend's guitar, your friend is not a co-owner of the work. If you book Electric Lady to mix a song, the owners of the studio are not entitled to a share of the copyright of the resulting Sound Recording.

What matters is that you had a meaningful contribution to the creation of the work, and that you were uncompensated for releasing your right to any exploitation of the recording. The argument to be made is the extent of your contribution, but the record company would not want to take a chance on this if they are releasing the recording. "Cease and desist" are 3 powerful words if you can afford to use them.

[-TheFrog-]

Contracts man, contracts.

Once, an accounts clerk had the balls to tell me that they had a 90 payment policy to avoid working with financially weak suppliers and that if we were in a position of not being able to get a loan for the amount of the contract for cash-flow than they should be worried. He then, candidly, proceeded to ask me: "should we be worried?"

****er!

Contracts man. Diplomacy and contracts.

A great book written by one of my teachers has been serving me well for years now.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/055380...910184-4449120

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by paultools

Whether you used your gear or it's on your hard drive or not does not matter (at least for a U.S. copyright claim)... if you wrote a song using a friend's guitar, your friend is not a co-owner of the work. If you book Electric Lady to mix a song, the owners of the studio are not entitled to a share of the copyright of the resulting Sound Recording.

What matters is that you had a meaningful contribution to the creation of the work, and that you were uncompensated for releasing your right to any exploitation of the recording. The argument to be made is the extent of your contribution, but the record company would not want to take a chance on this if they are releasing the recording. "Cease and desist" are 3 powerful words if you can afford to use them.

Isn't "Cease And Desist" posh words for Stop? Stop what exactly?

I would suggest contributing to the work and owning the materials the work is recorded on would be grounds.

Try not paying Electric Ladyland and see how far your claim for the recordings they made goes. Like I said it's awkward. If you still own the copy and haven't been paid you have rights over that copy. You almost certainly don't have rights over the musical content and couldn't use it for your own gain.


Edit: I know it's NOT Ladyland really...

[Ace_TX]

how this go from getting paid to copyright

if you didn't write and/or produce the music you dont have any copyright claim

your paperwork should state that you will retain the recordings until your paid in full

net 7 the small labels

harass the majors until you get paid, folks dont like to pay even if they have the money...and why would they if your not going to do anything about it