contract with a devil:)

[Red Mastering]

hello lads,
I need a template or a contract between producer/sound engineer/mixer/studio owner vs artist.
I made a deal (verbal and short email) with a musician/artists to make EP at my studio, I record, edit and mix all material, he does not pay a penny. We agreed to do it, and share any profit 50/50.
I am honest person, and I offered him my service ( i think music is great) for free, even considering this recording would not bring any profit. Call me stupid but I do this for music...
Now after initial recording (we agree to make record together, only 2 of us, he plays on several instruments), he brought me his contract (it's not really contract, just a piece of paper saying that he got rights to everything, all music and tracks is his, and basically all i get from it - is to credit my work)
It was a sign for me that it's not really a fair deal for me, plus he started to extend my amount of work by adding 'new instruments' and musicians.
I feel really bad, my approach was honest, but now I see a deal with a devil
i want to finish this, but obviously I need to create a contract with him (it's really urgent, I have few days - it must be done by Wednesday)

I did some research, but couldn't find anything which suits me,
I live in UK,

any help - really appreciate


thank you

[Black Seal]

Do you have those copies of the emails that you made those agreements? If so, show him those, and hand your contract that you both initially agreed upon and have him sign it. If not, do not proceed with any more recordings or hand him over any until he does sign the agreement. Done.

[Red Mastering]

yes i do have those emails...
facebook comes handy sometimes

anyway I did wrote myself a sort of contract, when I pointed the scopes and pledges also detailed info what we gonna do (in sense of my studio involvement)

He phoned me some 2h ago, not very happy that I don't want to be his 'camel'

but now I am awaiting for his asnwer,

anyway a bitter taste of reality, when you want to do sth. non profit, and other human beings want to sit on your back and ride on your back for a couple of weeks, not even feeding or giving the water,
seriously I wanted to do it for music only, now I think it was a big mistake and I rather want to secure my way out, without any damage for myself

the funny thing is he already told me I can't withdraw from this agreement until we finish it, even when i am not happy to carry on))
and told me to pay him...

[drBill]

I guess I don't have to tell you that going into these types of partnerships (yes, that's what it is) without a contract firmly in place BEFORE RECORDING A SINGLE NOTE is insanity.

At this stage, he owns the copyrights. The writers share and the publishers share of the music. Unless he decides to give you some, that is unapproachable IMO. What YOU own is the recordings as you basically "paid" for the recordings. What you both have is a "stalemate". You cannot do anything with the music without him, and he cannot get his product without you releasing the recordings. That's the good news,,,,,

Now.....

Quit recording until you work out the contract. Do NOT give him any rough mixes or anything else until you guys work out a solid deal. At this stage, I'd suggest you both get attorney's, but at least YOU should get one. If you negotiate this with him on your own without a middleman (attorney or management, etc.), it will sour your working relationship. There was a chance to not do that, but that was long before you started recording. At this stage, unless you let attorney's work it out, you'll ruin your relationship with him as it's obvious you don't see eye to eye.

It sounds like you realize that there's little chance of this making any money, so perhaps you might just want to bend over and take it. The most valuable aspect of music (IMO) is the copyright. And without any publishing, you own 0% of that.

Also, it's BS that you have to continue. Without a valid contract, you have no commitment to him at all. That is the only leverage you have. Do not finish until you both sign.

Although we do these things for the love of music, if you open your eyes, look around and take the advice and experience of those who have gone before you, you will find that that "love" quickly dies when one of the parties is out for their own benefit at the expense of the other. And that almost certainly happens without a contract to keep people in place during the project.

Anyway, good luck with your situation.

[therealbigd]

If I were you, I'd tell him to keep what he's got from you but he's getting nothing else.

Let it go and take it on board as a lesson for next time.

[narcoman]

sounds like the sort of guy to stop working with.

options:


1. if he is not a client and you made the initial movement towards doing this recording - the recordings are yours. Don't give him them. Of course, they may still be his songs. This is a "production deal". Normally all recording work lies with the client.

2. submit an invoice.

3. refuse to sign anything other than 50/50. This is a bit tricky though - if they are his songs really you only have entitlement to the recording part of the project. A recording is NOT the whole story.

4. Give him what you have with no edit/mix work done. No plugins etc and et him get on with it. Wash your hands of the project.

[Space Station]

This happened to me years ago. Stupidly ended with nothing being released because as stated, you own the 'recordings' so there is nothing he can do..apart from re-record.

After 2 years on and off of free studio hire, production, engineering, part writing, playing, hospitality and board..as soon as money was on the table i was being asked to sign everything off as a session player...HOHO..

Bastard publishers tried to sell my 'recordings' to Universal whilst trying to write me out..

Somehow I was the bad guy too...er...soooo how'd that happen?

[narcoman]

I have a very similar story with two well known acts who owe me money from the early days! Productions deals done on a hand shake..... ah well....

[AcoosticZoo]

Originally Posted by tresperros

the funny thing is he already told me I can't withdraw from this agreement until we finish it, even when i am not happy to carry on))
and told me to pay him...

If he takes u to court, i don't think he will, but if he does.... u think he can win?

Also, you're a nice guy mate, this isn't the first Time I've heard/seen something similar.

Take a deep breath and learn from this. Don't worry about his threats. Be calm and professional as you are doing this for the music.

Better luck next time.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

[narcoman]

I agree with the above. There's nothing to "take to court". As for him telling you you cannot "walk out" - you can do whatever you like. There is no signed agreement in place and no financial transaction has taken place. To be honest I'd only approach this in one of two ways:


A) Reason with him and come to a friendly agreement. You'll have to do this by being in charge and taking that face/foot kicking and get your own way without him knowing. Something along the lines of "okay {happy smily nice email} - we've reached a bit of an impasse. Let's meet up and try and figure out what to do, we're working together and it needs to be mutually beneficial and equally as low risk to each side".

B) {and this is if A doesn't work at all}. Walk off the project, give him the bare recordings and learn a hard lesson. People can be dicks...

Either way - be professional, don't vent your spleen at him, and I'd even consider wiping all your posts of GS on this matter - just in case. The professional response always involves courtesy and simple responses. Don't fight, just get out of it!

[Red Mastering]

Originally Posted by drBill

I guess I don't have to tell you that going into these types of partnerships (yes, that's what it is) without a contract firmly in place BEFORE RECORDING A SINGLE NOTE is insanity.

At this stage, he owns the copyrights. The writers share and the publishers share of the music. Unless he decides to give you some, that is unapproachable IMO. What YOU own is the recordings as you basically "paid" for the recordings. What you both have is a "stalemate". You cannot do anything with the music without him, and he cannot get his product without you releasing the recordings. That's the good news,,,,,

Now.....

Quit recording until you work out the contract. Do NOT give him any rough mixes or anything else until you guys work out a solid deal. At this stage, I'd suggest you both get attorney's, but at least YOU should get one. If you negotiate this with him on your own without a middleman (attorney or management, etc.), it will sour your working relationship. There was a chance to not do that, but that was long before you started recording. At this stage, unless you let attorney's work it out, you'll ruin your relationship with him as it's obvious you don't see eye to eye.

It sounds like you realize that there's little chance of this making any money, so perhaps you might just want to bend over and take it. The most valuable aspect of music (IMO) is the copyright. And without any publishing, you own 0% of that.

Also, it's BS that you have to continue. Without a valid contract, you have no commitment to him at all. That is the only leverage you have. Do not finish until you both sign.

Although we do these things for the love of music, if you open your eyes, look around and take the advice and experience of those who have gone before you, you will find that that "love" quickly dies when one of the parties is out for their own benefit at the expense of the other. And that almost certainly happens without a contract to keep people in place during the project.

Anyway, good luck with your situation.

really appreciate your input,
great thanks;

project was terminated, i've lost 2 days for recordings, not so much lost...
but a big lesson for future, that 'love' to music could have ugly faces..

again big thanks
and have a nice day!

[Red Mastering]

Originally Posted by narcoman

I agree with the above. There's nothing to "take to court". As for him telling you you cannot "walk out" - you can do whatever you like. There is no signed agreement in place and no financial transaction has taken place. To be honest I'd only approach this in one of two ways:


A) Reason with him and come to a friendly agreement. You'll have to do this by being in charge and taking that face/foot kicking and get your own way without him knowing. Something along the lines of "okay {happy smily nice email} - we've reached a bit of an impasse. Let's meet up and try and figure out what to do, we're working together and it needs to be mutually beneficial and equally as low risk to each side".

B) {and this is if A doesn't work at all}. Walk off the project, give him the bare recordings and learn a hard lesson. People can be dicks...

Either way - be professional, don't vent your spleen at him, and I'd even consider wiping all your posts of GS on this matter - just in case. The professional response always involves courtesy and simple responses. Don't fight, just get out of it!

Thanks for help gents!
I needed it....

things get nasty during easter though;
my fellow musician did not like my offer/contract and became very unpleasant
claiming i took advantage on him, and took sth from him (stolen)...
even considering i gave him all tracks, and he didn't pay
i then tell him to do not call me again and simply to do not bother me...
he became very aggressive, shouting and threatening me
so i just ask him to respect my privacy and go away...
2 h. later he text me :
i didn't got a coffee this morning and i didn't sleep well)))))
mr. you are great technician, peace and love



so from hate and threats to love and peace within 2 h time

as you all said gents -
hard lesson for me - to never start anything without contract

again many thanx and have a lovely day

[narcoman]

don't worry. Sounds like he was just throwing his toys out of the pram because he couldn't get everything his way. Resolved and lesson learned.... at least he knows he was out-a-line earlier. ... so many don't!!

[solo-bration]

Originally Posted by narcoman

sounds like the sort of guy to stop working with.

sometimes it IS that simple thumbsup

[taturana]

i had one guy who did not pay me once threaten to bring a gun to make me give him his masters...

i calmly explained to him that in that case the gun would probably end up stuck in his behind and that's why we have armed security in the building.

i still have the masters 10 years later.. no gun came up at all... still if they pay me what they owe, i'll be happy to give him the tracks.

[Trev@Circle]

Originally Posted by narcoman

I agree with the above. There's nothing to "take to court". As for him telling you you cannot "walk out" - you can do whatever you like. There is no signed agreement in place and no financial transaction has taken place. To be honest I'd only approach this in one of two ways:


A) Reason with him and come to a friendly agreement. You'll have to do this by being in charge and taking that face/foot kicking and get your own way without him knowing. Something along the lines of "okay {happy smily nice email} - we've reached a bit of an impasse. Let's meet up and try and figure out what to do, we're working together and it needs to be mutually beneficial and equally as low risk to each side".

B) {and this is if A doesn't work at all}. Walk off the project, give him the bare recordings and learn a hard lesson. People can be dicks...

Either way - be professional, don't vent your spleen at him, and I'd even consider wiping all your posts of GS on this matter - just in case. The professional response always involves courtesy and simple responses. Don't fight, just get out of it!

I'd agree with this other than B. If he hasnt paid you for your work or stuck to the verbal agreement while the songs are his, the recordings of them are not. While you may not use them you are entirely free to press the delete button if you want. You may choose not to or to leave them on your hard drive without using them but there is nothing he can do to get them other than fulfil the agreed consideration. I'd send him an email reminding him of the initial agreement. Ask him if he will fulfil it. See what he says. If he replies that he will not tell him that he is not entitled to any of the recordings and what you will do with them. He may threaten you with legal proceedings. It's very unlikely that he would issue them. He may even say that you must 'disclose' the material to him prior to him issuing legal proceedings. He'd be wrong on that too.

Good luck!

[sundial]

in the U.K it might be a good thing to sign up to loss prevention and then send him an invoice if he doesnt pay they take all the hassle out taking people to civil court.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Trev@Circle

I'd agree with this other than B. If he hasnt paid you for your work or stuck to the verbal agreement while the songs are his, the recordings of them are not. While you may not use them you are entirely free to press the delete button if you want.

I understand why you'd think that - but I can tell you from a legal standpoint, if your client could prove contract and EVEN if he hadn't paid - you'd be liable for full damages... and who knows what they'd be.

Never delete anything unless your client fully understands this! The recordings are his whether paid for or not....... you can't delete stuff you don't own unless it's under your initial terms. i.e. "work will be deleted 30 days after the completion of the last recording date"...

be careful out there folks - like landlords, the law ain't as much on your side as you think.

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by tresperros

hello lads,
I need a template or a contract between producer/sound engineer/mixer/studio owner vs artist.
I made a deal (verbal and short email) with a musician/artists to make EP at my studio, I record, edit and mix all material, he does not pay a penny. We agreed to do it, and share any profit 50/50.
I am honest person, and I offered him my service ( i think music is great) for free, even considering this recording would not bring any profit. Call me stupid but I do this for music...
Now after initial recording (we agree to make record together, only 2 of us, he plays on several instruments), he brought me his contract (it's not really contract, just a piece of paper saying that he got rights to everything, all music and tracks is his, and basically all i get from it - is to credit my work)
It was a sign for me that it's not really a fair deal for me, plus he started to extend my amount of work by adding 'new instruments' and musicians.
I feel really bad, my approach was honest, but now I see a deal with a devil
i want to finish this, but obviously I need to create a contract with him (it's really urgent, I have few days - it must be done by Wednesday)

I did some research, but couldn't find anything which suits me,
I live in UK,

any help - really appreciate


thank you

if you did not sign anything
tell him to bug off
and do no more work for/with him

if you have tapes (files) tell him to pay for your time
or you will erase them

GET A CONTRACT SIGNED FIRST BEFORE DOING ANYTHING
TRUST NOBODY in this biz
(Trust everybody BUT VERIFY)
(Trust gramma but still cut the cards)