Flat Rate Mixing?

[rcb4t2]

K - so this isn't a "what should I charge" thread, per se...

I've normally treated all of my studio services (pre-production, tracking, mixing, mastering) as time - ie I charge the same hourly rate and however long it takes is what it costs. This covers my butt in terms of endless projects, unrehearsed musicians, etc, but I'm sensing my clients are more and more expecting a flat "what will it cost" program. And as I've become more settled into my ways and gained more experience I am more comfortable with this approach.

For tracking I will keep it hourly (or half-days, days, etc), but I'm trying to develop a rate system for mixing and mastering.

So, specifically for mixing, how are you guys handling flat rate jobs? For example, if a full band hands me a session with 30-some-odd tracks (or more?) that need to be edited, bussed, eq'd/comp'd, automated etc etc that is a totally different scope of work than the rapper that comes in with a 2-track beat and lays 5-8 vocal tracks, or the singer-songwriter with an acoustic guitar and a couple of vocal tracks.

Do you guys treat this on a per-project basis or do you have a simple mix and a complex mix rate - ideally I'd like to develop maybe two rates that reflect a simple (10 tracks or so) mix from a complex (40+) track mix. But where to draw the line in the sand? I fear the full-band that will want to track with 10 tracks to squeak under the line to get the simple rate lol....

Thoughts? Thanks!

[rcb4t2]

Semi-related...

I like the idea of putting together packages. Rapper package, 10 songs recording vocals over 2-track beats incl. mix and master for $xx...... songwriter package similar...... quick demo package for full band including 1 full tracking day plus mix/master...... etc

Have others implemented this approach with success? The pitfalls of the endless project seem obvious, but again, I get the sense that people like turnkey, set-price packages. When I seek non-audio services from other companies, indeed I like the same thing! I think the idea of the running clock puts people off and I'd like to steer away from it a little. (not only from a business perspective, but also creatively - for them and me!)

Thanks folks!

[therecordinghous]

i do flat rate mixing. i charge much less for tracks that are recorded at my place. it is much more predictable, and encourages clients to track with me. plus, i will have things comped and edited, ready to actually mix.

it is amazing what bands think "mixing" is now days. "can you edit this", "can you pitch correct that"?

for tracks recorded elsewhere, i do not quote until i see the sessions.

[rcb4t2]

Originally Posted by therecordinghous

i do flat rate mixing. i charge much less for tracks that are recorded at my place. it is much more predictable, and encourages clients to track with me. plus, i will have things comped and edited, ready to actually mix.

it is amazing what bands think "mixing" is now days. "can you edit this", "can you pitch correct that"?

for tracks recorded elsewhere, i do not quote until i see the sessions.

Thanks for the reply! If I may ask, how much is "much less" for tracks recorded at your place. % is fine, no need for dollar figures if you prefer.

Although you provide quotes after seeing the sessions, do you have ballpark figures that you use during the initial communication with the potential client? (again not interested in the actual numbers unless you want to share them....)

(just checked your site - nice space!)

[drBill]

Hourly. Honestly, I'm really not sure how you can go any other way. It's really the only fair way unless you are so hungry you'll take any job or are in the stratosphere $$,$$$ range for mixing a song. IMO of course. There are too many variables completely out of my control for me to lock down to a flat rate. Exceptions are clients I've worked for for many years, but even then.......SURPRISE!!! Just finished a job today that I was told would only take a day and a half. Ended up at 3.5 days due to - new parts needing to be recorded, assembly "required" (from 3 different sessions to "build" each mix session), lots of editing needed, tuning needed, clients's client wanted changes but wasn't in attendance to tell us, etc. etc. How can you second guess all that and deliver a fair price?

[psycho_monkey]

Per track - but on a case by case basis.

I have a "label" rate and and an "unsigned" rate.

Label rate - well enough compensated that if I have to do any editing etc, I'm not going to be left out of pocket.

Unsigned rate - is generally a quote rather than a fixed fee, but I won't commit to it until I've heard the rough mix.

I also factor in at least a bit of tuning/editing into both rates - I almost always have to do something, even if it's just cleaning up things.

[Musiclab]

hourly is more honest and fair to both parties. If you're going to do a flat, I'd only do it on a quote basis. And I'd add on extra to cover revisions, because when they're not paying for them, they want them.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

hourly is more honest and fair to both parties.

To overstate the obvious, I agree 100%. With a flat rate, the situation is going to be unfair to ONE of the parties 99% of the time. Someone is getting either overcharged or shorted.

Personally, I don't want my clients to feel like I might be overcharging them. And on the other hand, I don't want to end up eating it because of unforeseen "issues" on their end.

If I need to discount the mix to fit their budget, I want to look them in the eye and show that I'm doing them a favor - ie: the mix DIDN'T take 5 hours Joe, it took 10 because of "XYZ on your end" and since I know your budget is tight, I'm only going to charge you 7.5 hours and we'll split the difference.

[rcb4t2]

Thanks - you guys bring up a lot of good points and reminded me why I work hourly already lol! It's just frustrating that the last few people that came through seemed really set on having a known figure before they got started. "Gosh, it really depends" just isn't a good answer - I guess I have to refine the way I evaluate and estimate project costs. Well, actually, I'm quite good at estimating they just usually don't like the answer!!

Geez I had this guy the other day who was flabbergasted that I might spend a *whole* hour mixing a song for him. (This was after I had to back-pedal from 2-3 hours - not a full stemmed out situation just a 2-track plus some vocals). I explained that there were plenty of folks in their bedrooms with an mBox that'd be happy to take his project. I guess that one guy set me off on this tangent. dfegad

"C'mon, be real bro, how you gonna spend a whole hour mixing one song?!?"

fuuck

[narcoman]

Used to do project rates - but i'll only agree to that after having a look at what's there. Generally a daily rate (down to half days) with my estimate on how long each mix will take.

It's all up for negotiation though.

[czarthp]

I charge a flat rate, but I mostly mix hip-hop, not just 2track beats and vocals. Some wit full wav files. When I first started mixing I wondered how people charged for it. I thought of charging hourly but I've always wondered if I charged someone 10 hours for a mix how would they know I really spent 10 hours on it? What if they thought I only worked 4 on it. To me flat rate is easier for the artist. But I know bands require a lot more work, good question.

[therealbigd]

My mix rate TYPES are:

Tracked with me, mix unattended, up to 3 revisions: PER TRACK

Tracked with me, mix attended, up to 3 revisions: PER HOUR

Tracked elsewhere, mix unattended, up to 3 revisions: Depends on what state it's in when I get it - Quote once I've heard it.

Tracked elsewhere, mix attended, up to 3 revisions: PER HOUR

No Revisions: 10% Cash Back (this helps persuade people to **** and not keep sending the mix back and forth to add a tiny bit more click to the kick drum only to change their mind next time).


As for actual rates - these are still quoted case by case. I'll charge less for a band I really like, and as tracked well, because I'll enjoy mixing it; than I will for a band I don't like, tracked badly, because I'll hate it!

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by czarthp

I charge a flat rate, but I mostly mix hip-hop, not just 2track beats and vocals. Some wit full wav files. When I first started mixing I wondered how people charged for it. I thought of charging hourly but I've always wondered if I charged someone 10 hours for a mix how would they know I really spent 10 hours on it? What if they thought I only worked 4 on it. To me flat rate is easier for the artist. But I know bands require a lot more work, good question.

they could sit there with you, and watch. When a client is paying by the hour, I have NO problem with them being there the whole time. But often clients show up for the last hour or two, and they trust that I'm being honest.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

My mix rate TYPES are:

Tracked with me, mix unattended, up to 3 revisions: PER TRACK

Tracked with me, mix attended, up to 3 revisions: PER HOUR

Tracked elsewhere, mix unattended, up to 3 revisions: Depends on what state it's in when I get it - Quote once I've heard it.

Tracked elsewhere, mix attended, up to 3 revisions: PER HOUR

No Revisions: 10% Cash Back (this helps persuade people to **** and not keep sending the mix back and forth to add a tiny bit more click to the kick drum only to change their mind next time).


As for actual rates - these are still quoted case by case. I'll charge less for a band I really like, and as tracked well, because I'll enjoy mixing it; than I will for a band I don't like, tracked badly, because I'll hate it!

I would think if a client is paying per hour, they can get however many revisions they want, they're paying for them, unless you're saying something different.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

I would think if a client is paying per hour, they can get however many revisions they want, they're paying for them, unless you're saying something different.

Well, if they come in for the revisions, then yes, we can revise it til the cows come home.

But want I meant was, often I'll do a mix session for 3 days with the band in (at hourly rate) and then they'll just drop me a line saying "It's all good but could you just turn up the bass and the snare drum and turn down the keys a little bit". It's hardly worth booking a studio for a day and them travelling to London for that is it? So I allow 3 of those and then start charging again, because more than 3 revisions is half way to doing a whole new mix.

[Seamus TM]

Unattended with a recall maximum.
That's the only way I would do a flat rate.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

Well, if they come in for the revisions, then yes, we can revise it til the cows come home.

But want I meant was, often I'll do a mix session for 3 days with the band in (at hourly rate) and then they'll just drop me a line saying "It's all good but could you just turn up the bass and the snare drum and turn down the keys a little bit". It's hardly worth booking a studio for a day and them travelling to London for that is it? So I allow 3 of those and then start charging again, because more than 3 revisions is half way to doing a whole new mix.

what I try to do is not have my next session bump up against the mix session. So say I do a mix friday, if there are small changes that I can do quickly on saturday afternoon, I'll do them, depending on how long it takes will determine if or what the fee will be for the revision.

[Studio507]

Flat rate, I don't want someone looking over my shoulder, counting hours. I hate working like that, it kills the vibe when mixing and inhibits experimentation IMO.

If it's a rapper and a 2 track I'm probably not going to mix it, unless I tracked it. In that case I'll charge them about what it'll take me in terms of hours (usually 2 hrs max to mix a rap song to a 2 track that I recorded myself).

If it's an album or mixtape or whatever than I'll quote them for the package generally. Gotta hear it first though, if it's terrible I probably won't want to do it unless it's a lot of money involved, which it usually isn't.

I've done hourly mixes, and still do them occasionally but that's not where I wanna be personally.

[bitman]

I only charge $20.00 per song to mix em after tracking for 50.00 /hr.
I do this because I take so long to mix that it could be much much more and much less fair if I did otherwise.

[Seamus TM]

Originally Posted by bitman

I only charge $20.00 per song to mix em after tracking for 50.00 /hr.
I do this because I take so long to mix that it could be much much more and much less fair if I did otherwise.

It takes as long as it takes.
You shouldn't punish yourself for it.

[AcoosticZoo]

I Like doing projects with flat rates. Gives the client a fix sum to budget for records and gives me the freedom to do whatever's required to blend the tracks to perfection. I don't have to log the times and do much accounting time wise - everything flows better for me that way - I can be confident that I can take the raw tracks to better space when my client isn't worried/thinking about the hours ticking.

Mixing times varies according to projects. For me Charging by the hour would pay around the same as a fixed flat rate quote. But with a fixed flat rate, the client knows that they're going to be paying only so much and that helps alot with budgeting.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

[rcb4t2]

Originally Posted by AcoosticZoo

I Like doing projects with flat rates. Gives the client a fix sum to budget for records and gives me the freedom to do whatever's required to blend the tracks to perfection. I don't have to log the times and do much accounting time wise - everything flows better for me that way - I can be confident that I can take the raw tracks to better space when my client isn't worried/thinking about the hours ticking.

Mixing times varies according to projects. For me Charging by the hour would pay around the same as a fixed flat rate quote. But with a fixed flat rate, the client knows that they're going to be paying only so much and that helps alot with budgeting.

Regards
Josef Horhay
Mixing Engineer
www.acoosticzoo.com

That's kind of where I'm coming from - I have overhead (obviously) in my space but it's not like I'm freelancing where I have to pay a set hourly sum to use the room. I'm comfortable enough in my skillset at this point that I feel I can come pretty close with an estimate after giving the material a listen. I am also talking primarily about mixing material that I've tracked too, so it's not like there will be huge surprises, and (hopefully!) I'll have done my job right when tracking.

Thanks for everyone's input!

[Swedishsteel]

Originally Posted by therecordinghous

i do flat rate mixing. i charge much less for tracks that are recorded at my place. it is much more predictable, and encourages clients to track with me. plus, i will have things comped and edited, ready to actually mix.

it is amazing what bands think "mixing" is now days. "can you edit this", "can you pitch correct that"?

for tracks recorded elsewhere, i do not quote until i see the sessions.

that is a part of mixing now-a-days. Times are changing, either you change too or you get stuck in the past.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Swedishsteel

that is a part of mixing now-a-days. Times are changing, either you change too or you get stuck in the past.

OR you could look at it another (more enjoyable way). Get better clients! . That ain't mixing for me. I've sent back (metaphorically) many a multi-track when it has "issues".

[Swedishsteel]

Or you could charge them extra. Idk about you, i love this but when it comes to money im getting the most i can.

[Tarekith]

I do sort of a combination of hourly and flate. I have a flat base fee estimated with a simple mix in mind, with the caveat that the rate will increase depending on track count and complexity (basically how long I think it will take depending on how well it was recorded). I only give a firm quote and proceed once I have the files and know what I'm dealing with. This gives the client a rough idea of the cost, and gives me the chance to pass on anything or avoid surprises.

[jonathan jetter]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

hourly is more honest and fair to both parties. If you're going to do a flat, I'd only do it on a quote basis. And I'd add on extra to cover revisions, because when they're not paying for them, they want them.

hourly is more honest- *but* for unattended mixing, bands won't *perceive* it to be more honest.

i offer flat rate mixing.

i am clear that it includes one revision (further revisions billed hourly).

i am clear that it includes a mix + an instrumental (stems cost extra).

i am clear that a few edits/tunings are fine (like less than 10 per song), but that serious editing/tuning is a separate task and billed hourly.

i am clear that no one gets to sit over my shoulder for flat rate work. i do my mix, they come in and listen. we then make tweaks until everyone is happy.

in the rare instances that i do label work....i just quote a higher flat rate and build in time for the inevitable extra revisions, silly A+R comments, etc.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by jonathan jetter

hourly is more honest- *but* for unattended mixing, bands won't *perceive* it to be more honest.

i offer flat rate mixing.

i am clear that it includes one revision (further revisions billed hourly).

i am clear that it includes a mix + an instrumental (stems cost extra).

i am clear that a few edits/tunings are fine (like less than 10 per song), but that serious editing/tuning is a separate task and billed hourly.

i am clear that no one gets to sit over my shoulder for flat rate work. i do my mix, they come in and listen. we then make tweaks until everyone is happy.

in the rare instances that i do label work....i just quote a higher flat rate and build in time for the inevitable extra revisions, silly A+R comments, etc.

My clients can attend from the beginning to the end if they like. On unattended mixes I give my client an estimate of what it will cost after I've had a good look at the tracks and discussed what their expectations are. I also try to make it so that that client can hear the mix when I'm ready to print and try to nail the changes then. I did a mix for someone from England last that I did in this manner. Most of my clients show up in the last hour or so, they trust me and I respect their trust.
As far a label work, which I haven't seen much of in the last few years, yep you sure better charge more, you have to wait for the money and that's worth something too.

[-Noodles-]

I guess.

Every project I just pull a number out my ass and see if they like the smell.

[StewartFang]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

My mix rate TYPES are:

Tracked with me, mix unattended, up to 3 revisions: PER TRACK

Tracked with me, mix attended, up to 3 revisions: PER HOUR

Tracked elsewhere, mix unattended, up to 3 revisions: Depends on what state it's in when I get it - Quote once I've heard it.

Tracked elsewhere, mix attended, up to 3 revisions: PER HOUR

No Revisions: 10% Cash Back (this helps persuade people to **** and not keep sending the mix back and forth to add a tiny bit more click to the kick drum only to change their mind next time).


As for actual rates - these are still quoted case by case. I'll charge less for a band I really like, and as tracked well, because I'll enjoy mixing it; than I will for a band I don't like, tracked badly, because I'll hate it!

huh? I starting seeing double just reading that...how could a guitar player understand that?

Originally Posted by narcoman

Used to do project rates - but i'll only agree to that after having a look at what's there. Generally a daily rate (down to half days) with my estimate on how long each mix will take.

It's all up for negotiation though.

that's more like reality...leaves room to give a little extra at the end of certain days, but no room for abuse