Flat Rate Mixing?

[mariogil]

Hi all,

I'm currently developing an App to manage the activities of the recording studio.
Two questions that would help me in this development.
1 How you guys note the hours of recording and the costs of each project?
2 What do you most like to see in a dedicated App?

Thanks
Mario gil

[dankin]

I almost always do a flat rate for mixing here. That rate is based on the project meaning that if I'm mixing a acoustic project with only a few tracks on each song I'm not going to charge as much as I would to mix a big pop production with a ton of tracks. I usually include up to 3 mix revisions for free. If they want stems (for live tracks) or a bunch of alternate mix's I will charge hourly for the time it takes to print all of that. But that's all negotiated up front so that there's hopefully not any major surprises along the way.

[mariogil]

Hi dankin

How do you note all this things? Flat rate, payments, how many songs...
Are you using any kind of software?
I'm asking because I'm trying to understand how people manage these projects.
As I said, I'm currently developing an App and trying to improve it.
Thanks
Mario

[drBill]

Rarely flat rates. Unless you consider day rates a "flat" rate.

Even when doing day rates, I always notate session start, end (say for a lunch break) how many hours during that segment of the session, and what was worked on. (BGVocals, editing), etc. Super easy to keep up on, as long as you don't wait 3 days to input.

Then, there is never any question later. For guys that do "flat rates" per song or project, I don't see them needing any software unless they really want to see how much over they are going....

Custom Filemaker Pro database here....

[mariogil]

Hi drBill,

good point here!

in my own studio, I always try to charge hourly, but sometimes... ;-)
I think even for guys that do "flat rates" per song or project, they should write down the time spent, the recorded music, the musicians ...

Another important thing to know, would be how many jobs did you have in the last month or the last year, how many hours you have recorded and how much you earned. Or do I am to much organized?tutt

_____________
www.audiostudiomanager.com

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by bitman

I only charge $20.00 per song to mix em after tracking for 50.00 /hr.
I do this because I take so long to mix that it could be much much more and much less fair if I did otherwise.

What's your idea of so long?

[rcb4t2]

I think we're veering toward the shameless plug zone, eh Mario?

Anyway, I just use excel for this. I have a custom template I made with charges and payments on two sides of the page. Got my little sum( commands set up to keep a tally of everything I enter. I included a notes section so I can put in any required info. I usually mark what's been worked on - "song name, tracking, mike's bass - hours - rate - charge". I dont see needing a custom app for something a spreadsheet can handle, but that's just me...

[mariogil]

Hi rcb,


your answer has two parts for me. Something encouraging because it shows that one way or another people have to write things down. And we both are taking notes.
Discouraging part is that maybe people do not want to do it the way I'm thinking.
I thank you for wrinting.
Mario

[jordanvoth]

Always screen the clients first.
Check to see if they play well. Take them for coffee and see what type of people they are. Get some reference material and rough demos if they have. Make sure the band knows what they want and then decide whether it will be hourly or flat rate.
If it's flat rate HALF UP FRONT! I JUST got burnt with this a couple months ago. Band came in, tracked for a month, got 99% of the way through the mixes for 11 songs and then got an email from the band saying they didn't like "vibe" of the tracks because they played to a click. Nothing. Literally, Fvck all for a months work, not a single dime and nothing to show for an entire month I could've been doing something else. I had agreed to redo the album on the condition that they pay for half of what I charged them for this month on top of the cost of redoing the album but they ultimately decided to go to a different studio. Which leads me to my next point, DON'T UNDERCHARGE. I charged these guys less than the tattoo work costed the lead singer. Had I asked for even $1000 with 25% down the project might have been an important enough investment to continue working on it. Even the most basic of rigs amongst the most amateur of engineers is worth at least $100 per song. No deals for people. If it doesn't cost them enough they don't take it seriously.

[mariogil]

Hi,

what a story!

maybe we could create a topic just for absurd stories like this.
Just kidding, because things like that should not happen.

Mario

[rcb4t2]

Originally Posted by mariogil

Hi rcb,


your answer has two parts for me. Something encouraging because it shows that one way or another people have to write things down. And we both are taking notes.
Discouraging part is that maybe people do not want to do it the way I'm thinking.
I thank you for wrinting.
Mario

Well maybe that could lead to an important point for your app... The ability for the end user to customize the fields and organization to their preferences, rather than your own?

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

Always screen the clients first.
Check to see if they play well. Take them for coffee and see what type of people they are. Get some reference material and rough demos if they have. Make sure the band knows what they want and then decide whether it will be hourly or flat rate.
If it's flat rate HALF UP FRONT! I JUST got burnt with this a couple months ago. Band came in, tracked for a month, got 99% of the way through the mixes for 11 songs and then got an email from the band saying they didn't like "vibe" of the tracks because they played to a click. Nothing. Literally, Fvck all for a months work, not a single dime and nothing to show for an entire month I could've been doing something else. I had agreed to redo the album on the condition that they pay for half of what I charged them for this month on top of the cost of redoing the album but they ultimately decided to go to a different studio. Which leads me to my next point, DON'T UNDERCHARGE. I charged these guys less than the tattoo work costed the lead singer. Had I asked for even $1000 with 25% down the project might have been an important enough investment to continue working on it. Even the most basic of rigs amongst the most amateur of engineers is worth at least $100 per song. No deals for people. If it doesn't cost them enough they don't take it seriously.

Yet another example of why by the hour is better. If you were by the hour and getting paid at the end of the session, you would not have had this problem

[SDB_12]

Since I don't work on a "huge" level, mostly doing local bands and smaller budget projects right now, I sort of treat it like a construction company bidding on a gig. I have an hourly rate in my mind, then I sit down with a band/artist and asses their goals, style, talent, etc. I like to get a budget goal from the band if they can offer that, so I can try to work within it. This gives me a better idea of how much time can be spent. If the budget is bigger, I allow more time for tracking/mixing and time to experiment and stuff. If not, I plan for quick sessions.

Once I feel I have all the information I need, I sit down and plan out the entire session (allowing for pre-productions, set up, tracking, editing, mixing, etc.). I lay out a time line and estimate how much time will be spent on each process of the album. I then come up with a total project cost, and am VERY clear about the time line I've set. Then as you track, have the band sign off on their takes (verbally or in writing depending how anal you'd like to get). If you've allowed 2 hours for bass and after 2 hours the bassist still thinks he can do better, you charge hourly then. Once it's tracked, have them approve the take and move on.

To do this, you have to be up front about sticking to the time line. I will usually say we have this many days to track...anything more is such and such per hour. I generally take 6-12 hours to mix, depending on the style of music. Because of my pre-meeting with the band, I've assessed everything and now have a general idea of how long the mix should take...so I estimate and try to stick to that. You get better the more you do it. I try to get all my clients to come in towards the end of a mix session to tweak/approve. They then have about 1 day to get back to me for 1 free revision. After that, hourly.

So this way, you can give a total project fee, which your clients may really like, but you still need to asses all their goals and provide a strict time line. You are essentially estimating your time, and charging by the hour. The more you do this, the better you'll be. Sometimes you may loose money if you underbid (just like a construction company). So it takes practice, just like anything else. Usually if I go over and loose money/time, it's because I'm being too critical during the mix and can't let it go...or am having fun playing around with things.

[_cake]

Yep, flate rate* mixing all the time

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by rcb4t2

Thanks - you guys bring up a lot of good points and reminded me why I work hourly already lol! It's just frustrating that the last few people that came through seemed really set on having a known figure before they got started. "Gosh, it really depends" just isn't a good answer - I guess I have to refine the way I evaluate and estimate project costs. Well, actually, I'm quite good at estimating they just usually don't like the answer!!

Geez I had this guy the other day who was flabbergasted that I might spend a *whole* hour mixing a song for him. (This was after I had to back-pedal from 2-3 hours - not a full stemmed out situation just a 2-track plus some vocals). I explained that there were plenty of folks in their bedrooms with an mBox that'd be happy to take his project. I guess that one guy set me off on this tangent. dfegad

"C'mon, be real bro, how you gonna spend a whole hour mixing one song?!?"

fuuck

That's basically what someone told me until I spoke it over with him and put him in his place when he heard it. Took me two days to mix everything only because of the vocal automation but it was necessary as with most vocals...He walked out happy and paying.

I would've said "Well why did you call me then?" if they're going to try and guilt trip/insult you make them feel like a big ol jackass.

[bobsandifer]

Flat rate. I have been doing it that way for well over a decade and I always feel good about what I get and what they paid. I have a producer/artist meeting, I mix the work to the first draft, I meet with the producer/artist again and make my final revisions. I am usually working with a deadline so I dont get stuck with revision after revision. I can do it alone or with an audience. It's all good with me.