To School or Not to School

[s2_Audio]

With today’s dollar buying very little, the question of the quality of the education a person receives for their dollar arises. It seems that young eager people are flocking to trade and specialty schools to learn how to become recording engineers. Just what the (insert profane expletive here) are they thinking?

Hearing stories and seeing faces has brought me to the reality that these eager young freshly educated people are generally not being taught the hard reality of the entertainment business. It is a reality that has prevailed since the beginnings of the entertainment industry itself.

As a child in the fifties I remember the story of Toby Tyler. It was the story of a young boy who ran away from a foster home to join the circus. Toby used to shirk from his duties to watch the trapeze act rehearse and perform. Toby had the hot’s for a young female trapeze artist.

The circus boss used to find Tyler standing behind the bleachers with shovel in hand watching his dream girl perform. He spent hours daydreaming of being on stage, flying above the audience with the love of his life. This pissed off the circus boss because Toby’s duty was to look after the elephants needs.

Toby got the message and performed his job with enthusiasm and due diligence. When time allowed he would visit with the young female aerialist, usually sitting on a bale of hay in the elephant yard. He would watch her act as his time allowed and this caught the eye of the boss. One day there was an accident and the principle male performer broke his foot and was unable to perform. Toby got his shot.

The young people I see in schools and freshly out of them seem to have missed the story of Toby Tyler somewhere along the way. They seem to have the idea that once they have learned how to operate a particular system or more to the point, have stood behind the bleachers watching someone else perform, that they are ready to “be the show”, without shoveling any elephant dung. Hey kids, Toby Tyler knew this, the people in the industry before you know this and hopefully if you use your whole brain so will you; the rule is simple:

Ya gotta pay your dues.

Oh by the way …going to school aint payin dues.

Scott Spain Recording Engineer

[The Byre]

When we remember that the tale of Toby Tyler was a total work of total fiction . . .

School or not school? Easy - school!

Of course it should not be some bogus recording school (The Wysuckie College for the Terminally Dumb) but a course of study in a recognised academic or technical subject, but you still need to be able to read the sheet music and a circuit diagram in this business - and nowadays, you need to be able to operate Logic and PT at ninja level as well.

Going to college is paying dues. And it is doing so at a time when the feeble-minded are wasting their lives, goofing off!

[therealbigd]

One thing I can't understand is why everybody is doing degrees. A degree is a research based qualification that shows you have enough of an understanding about a subject that you can write an academic piece about it, to a high standard. There seem to be a lot of 'vocational degrees' turning up which are something of a contradiction in terms.

I think if people were sent along the vocational learning route, they wouldn't get such a shock at the fact Jockeys need to clean up horse poo before they can ride the horse.

But, bottom line is:
• You can't blame the universities - they're offering a legitimate product in a field with a lot of demand. (More than can be said for a lot of studios!)
•*You can't blame the students - the way the industry works is seldom explained to them. I take students on live production work experience, and I've met many who can operate an Avid Profile but can't do up a scaffold coupler with a socket set; because the Universities teach them the fun things that they enjoy learning, not the serious stuff that gets them working.
•*You can't blame the industry, because there's plenty of people working who deserve their jobs and have opened the lower positions up to the new people, who seem to not want to take them.

So where do you change things?

•*You can't change the courses. The courses are written to make money. They don't give a flying fish whether the students end up working in Abbey Road or building roads, they get their £3000 (or £9000) 3 times and let them off into the big wide world. All young people want to go to university, so they'll never have trouble filling the spaces - especially if the course offers 3 years of playing with SSLs, Pro Tools HD and massive Quested speakers. How many students would want to spend 3 years at university learning how to solder XLRs and change the drivers in monitors?
•*You can't change the students. They're having fun, and they're told they'll be successful, and that's enough for them. They've got no interest in working professionals telling them how to play it - and that's largely because a huge amount have the "It'll all work out when I graduate" outlook. I've tried, honestly, and it's like trying to draw blood from a stone. Honestly - try telling a 20 year old who spends 3 nights a week recording his own band in an SSL studio that he'd be better spending is time learning to solder.... LIKE HELL!
•*You can't change the industry. We can't just make 1000 more sound engineer jobs to make students happy. There's more good engineers than there are microphones in the UK music industry and the fact we get 1000 more 'wannabes' every year and about 10 die, doesn't help.

So, in summary - nothing wrong with going to school / college / university. At all. In fact, if you can afford it, it is STILL beneficial. It's just, you need to know that it is NOT a shortcut into industry. It's an aid, but not a bypass through the 'hard work' stages. Once people get their head around that, they'll be able to make the most of their education, which is a valuable thing to partake in if you can afford it and are academically enthusiastic. But don't just go to university because everyone else is, or because you think it's going to stop you having to carry steeldeck before you can do the FOH sound.

[s2_Audio]

Dude, Brye, really, nice statement of the obvious ...yeah dude Toby Tyler was fiction. So is the belief that going to school is paying dues. I have got 40 years in this business babe and have seen a lot of wanna be's come and go in that time.

Let's make this easy:

The box is 100% of all you know about your craft okay,

15% of the box is made up of what you learn in school

5% of the box is what you learn in continuing education

the other 80% you learn by doing.

This is the formula taught to the worlds leading corp's because it is right. School is the threshold into your chosen craft it is not paying dues. You pay your dues once you are through the door and if you are lucky enough to survive as long as I have you realize you never stop the dues paying process.

True story ...sorry, deal with it.

Scott Spain Recording Engineer

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by s2_Audio

With today’s dollar buying very little, the question of the quality of the education a person receives for their dollar arises. It seems that young eager people are flocking to trade and specialty schools to learn how to become recording engineers. Just what the (insert profane expletive here) are they thinking?

Hearing stories and seeing faces has brought me to the reality that these eager young freshly educated people are generally not being taught the hard reality of the entertainment business. It is a reality that has prevailed since the beginnings of the entertainment industry itself.

They seem to have the idea that once they have learned how to operate a particular system or more to the point, have stood behind the bleachers watching someone else perform, that they are ready to “be the show”, without shoveling any elephant dung. Hey kids, Toby Tyler knew this, the people in the industry before you know this and hopefully if you use your whole brain so will you; the rule is simple:

Ya gotta pay your dues.

Oh by the way …going to school aint payin dues.

Scott Spain Recording Engineer

I can say, I have been in those dung soaked shoes. When I was younger, I thought it was going to be much easier than it really is. But, I think that it is part of being young in general, and mostly it is about maturity and understanding. As teachers and scholarly humans, we can only help give people the tools to success and we simply can not put on someone else's shoes and walk a few miles. You gotta avoid stepping in the dung on your own. We can however show you how worn our own shoes are, and how clean they are from avoiding the dung.

When you are young, things are not always clear from experience. That's because we are inexperienced. I believe you are simply talking about field experience with dues. From 2004-2006, I majored in Audio Production and as such I received an Associates Degree in Science in Audio Production. I also received a Special Merit Award for outstanding service to fellow students, and in the end I feel I have spent my time and money wisely. In life there are always people who won't succeed, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a place to start failing. I certainly have been paying dues since I left College. It is about 30K's worth....but I might agree, that when when we graduate from any single learning environment, we have no field experience and we need to begin the journey of learning from experience.

Shoveling Dung = Proving yourself

[joelpatterson]

One of my time-worn mantras:

If you wanted to become President of the United States... would you attend a University that offered a degree in "Becoming President of the United States"?

[Laurent R]

I must say that I have read your blog and liked it, Scott Spain. This may be a shocker, but I have completed a studiocourse à la SAE and I'm currently in college in Belgium where I study Music Technique. Before and between those sorts of education, I was an intern in some studios and worked at a big venue/promotor in Ghent.

I just want to say, that I'm pretty known with 'how the sector works' and that I will continue with doing internships if I graduate. Recording and mixing education is for me an opportunity to learn more of the practical and theoretical side, so I can develop m skills. At the point where I may graduate, i will only had 8 years of experience. It would be arrogant and foolish to think you can compete with engineers that have a lot more experience.

I have spoken with a lot of 'older' engineers, and I want to quote something that was said during the period between an internship and going to study in college. An older engineer told me: "go to college and learn everything there is to learn, it took me so long, and I still know nothing."

I like to look at this that I'm fortunate to go to college and learn a lot, but that there's a lot more after college and you really need to pay your dues. And paying your dues, starts as soon as you want to go pro. School or no school, everybody need to pay their dues to get there...

Then again, I can imagine some sort of dislike with the 'older generation of engineers'. In their days, there was no college for recording or whatsoever, and you had to learn everything on your own.

At this point, I start to get some jobs for recording and mixing some projects. It made me really happy, but my motivation is still the same. Recording musicians will always be a service, which is important in my eyes. The task is to make the recording process as comfortable as possible for your musicians, in every aspect. The bands I work with seem to like me for this reason, and because I strife to do the job as good as I can.

I take your point of view a little bit personal, because i'm one of those students. But are you also saying that a student in my situation can't take a recording or mixing job, because a lot more other people could have payed a lot more dues than me?

[takman]

Originally Posted by s2_Audio

Dude, Brye, really, nice statement of the obvious ...yeah dude Toby Tyler was fiction. So is the belief that going to school is paying dues. I have got 40 years in this business babe and have seen a lot of wanna be's come and go in that time.

Let's make this easy:

The box is 100% of all you know about your craft okay,

15% of the box is made up of what you learn in school

5% of the box is what you learn in continuing education

the other 80% you learn by doing.

This is the formula taught to the worlds leading corp's because it is right. School is the threshold into your chosen craft it is not paying dues. You pay your dues once you are through the door and if you are lucky enough to survive as long as I have you realize you never stop the dues paying process.

True story ...sorry, deal with it.

Scott Spain Recording Engineer

about that 15%....

whats your thoughts on someone trying to learn that 15% on their own, via books, internet, videos, tutorials, articles etc.?

Thats what i have been trying to do the past two years. And of course, trying to apply what i have learned in my home studio.....to gain the other 80 percent.

I have found that forums like gearslutz are a wealth of information. I'm on here at least 2 hours a day reading. Some of the best in the biz are on this website, and they are giving out free advice. All you have to do is read.

[You_Father_Sky]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

One of my time-worn mantras:

If you wanted to become President of the United States... would you attend a University that offered a degree in "Becoming President of the United States"?

No, you would attend a highly respected university with majors in political science, modern political theory, political history and law.

You would then get yourself a job in a related field or company, and work your way there, snaking and weaving in a zig zag until you reached your destination/goal (which often changes along the way)

I fail to see why people shit on going to school for the sake of going to school. An issue should be made with the school you're paying into. I can count the legit schools I would recommend on one hand, one of which being Garth Richardson and Bob Ezrin's Nimbus school of Recording Arts in Vancouver. That place is legit, and gives you a real world education with a ton of real world experience in an extremely tough and demanding environment under very successful professionals.

I went to Music Industry Arts at Fanshawe College, which was for a long time the best (and only) legit school in Canada founded by Tom Lodge and Jack Richardson, whom I studied under and found it to be a very rewarding experience. That's not to say that there weren't problems, most of which stemmed from corporate college policy of trying to stick more and more students in the program each year for the money. That and I was the last year to work with full analog and study with Jack. I would no longer recommend Fanshawe, that's what happens, institutions change. But of all the heavy hitters in the Canadian music industry, many, many, many, a lot, a giant number (get it?) were MIA grads. They're old school guys and they went to school. People like Lenny DeRose, Kevin Doyle, Bob Ezrin, Garth Richardson, Eric Ratz, Greg Below.

But if you're thinking the only legit way to learn about the field is to make coffee and intern then you're not factoring in how many poor studio environments exist for interns, places that are abysmal learning environments and provide people with little to no real world value at their own expense. The "traditional" way of doing things can suffer from just as many failings as the "new" system and it's up to each person to navigate those issues.

Furthermore, if anything, these days having both a solid in school education AND interning tends to be the only way anyone is making it at all. So pick your school, then pick some studios, hopefully the studio picks you, then work your ass off.

[Calimaw]

Hi,

Did a search on google to learn more about S2 (a game developer) and came across S2Audio on facebook, found it interesting enough to grab my attention.

I attended Vancouver Film School in BC, Canada. The reason I was enticed in enrolling was because of their Sound Design for Game Audio.

As it turns out, their Game Audio course was not separate from their Film Audio course; it was rolled into one.

The year was split into 6 terms, 2 months each. The Game Audio grade for one of the terms consisted of 4%. That was the highest percentage of all of the terms.

Out of 8 instructors there was 1 instructor dedicated purely to Game Audio. This same instructor was relieved of his position by the 5th term due to a series of official complaints by students. The majority of the students were attending for film, yet still found the instructor lack-luster.

$57K in loans to pay back.

Supposedly this is the Premiere school to attend for young sound designers.

I wish I hadn't gone, I wish I had just a fraction of that amount and invested it into good equipment.

Probably better to hire a detective agency to get information on established designers and roll the dice by inviting them out for some coffee.

[AlexDaCat]

Originally Posted by s2_Audio

With today’s dollar buying very little, the question of the quality of the education a person receives for their dollar arises. It seems that young eager people are flocking to trade and specialty schools to learn how to become recording engineers. Just what the (insert profane expletive here) are they thinking?

Hearing stories and seeing faces has brought me to the reality that these eager young freshly educated people are generally not being taught the hard reality of the entertainment business. It is a reality that has prevailed since the beginnings of the entertainment industry itself.

As a child in the fifties I remember the story of Toby Tyler. It was the story of a young boy who ran away from a foster home to join the circus. Toby used to shirk from his duties to watch the trapeze act rehearse and perform. Toby had the hot’s for a young female trapeze artist.

The circus boss used to find Tyler standing behind the bleachers with shovel in hand watching his dream girl perform. He spent hours daydreaming of being on stage, flying above the audience with the love of his life. This pissed off the circus boss because Toby’s duty was to look after the elephants needs.

Toby got the message and performed his job with enthusiasm and due diligence. When time allowed he would visit with the young female aerialist, usually sitting on a bale of hay in the elephant yard. He would watch her act as his time allowed and this caught the eye of the boss. One day there was an accident and the principle male performer broke his foot and was unable to perform. Toby got his shot.

The young people I see in schools and freshly out of them seem to have missed the story of Toby Tyler somewhere along the way. They seem to have the idea that once they have learned how to operate a particular system or more to the point, have stood behind the bleachers watching someone else perform, that they are ready to “be the show”, without shoveling any elephant dung. Hey kids, Toby Tyler knew this, the people in the industry before you know this and hopefully if you use your whole brain so will you; the rule is simple:

Ya gotta pay your dues.

Oh by the way …going to school aint payin dues.

Scott Spain Recording Engineer

From your final statement, I take it you are ANTI EDUCATION. How would you be able to sit in front of your computer if there was no education. Your statement is irresponsible and completely ignorant.

[Calimaw]

Originally Posted by AlexDaCat

From your final statement, I take it you are ANTI EDUCATION. How would you be able to sit in front of your computer if there was no education. Your statement is irresponsible and completely ignorant.

I don't think any objective and analytical person is anti-education. Certainly a ~'sound designer' is both objective and analytical, it's as technical as it is creative.

I think it was more of an observation that anything worth having shouldn't be approached with the intention of taking shortcuts.

Under the assumption, which is something I have observed, many people who get a 'degree' or take some sort of formal education believe that it is as good as experience. Thus believe they are as good as any one currently working in the same field as their education.

There is no better education than experience. I believe that was the message.

[AlexDaCat]

Originally Posted by The Byre

When we remember that the tale of Toby Tyler was a total work of total fiction . . .

School or not school? Easy - school!

Of course it should not be some bogus recording school (The Wysuckie College for the Terminally Dumb) but a course of study in a recognised academic or technical subject, but you still need to be able to read the sheet music and a circuit diagram in this business - and nowadays, you need to be able to operate Logic and PT at ninja level as well.

Going to college is paying dues. And it is doing so at a time when the feeble-minded are wasting their lives, goofing off!

[AlexDaCat]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

One thing I can't understand is why everybody is doing degrees. A degree is a research based qualification that shows you have enough of an understanding about a subject that you can write an academic piece about it, to a high standard. There seem to be a lot of 'vocational degrees' turning up which are something of a contradiction in terms.

I think if people were sent along the vocational learning route, they wouldn't get such a shock at the fact Jockeys need to clean up horse poo before they can ride the horse.

A degree demonstrates the the person holding it, has the ability to
solve complex problems, ( here I am discussing the Science and Engineering subjects).

As for "poo" cleaning (for example, a jockey will have learned how to ride at an early age, and would certainly have a love for horses as well as being handy in the stable), they would have already achieved experience pre University, hence they are selecting the course to go further in their chosen field.

Those that have NOT attended University, do not have much to contribute on the subject, due to not having the experience.

A vocational degree is not much good UNLESS there is a placement (example, One year with a company in the industry of the chosen field of study), where the undergrad has the opportunity to demonstrate the willingness and aptitude.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by AlexDaCat

A degree demonstrates the the person holding it, has the ability to
solve complex problems, ( here I am discussing the Science and Engineering subjects).

No it doesn't, it shows they have the ability research it and write about it.

That's why, for the vocational subjects, they are fairly pointless.

[AlexDaCat]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

No it doesn't, it shows they have the ability research it and write about it.

Not in Electrical & Electronic Engineering (and the Physicists, Meds, Math..et al). The undergraduates have to prove they are worthy, by demonstrating they have the ability to solve problems.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by AlexDaCat

Not in Electrical & Electronic Engineering (and the Physicists, Meds, Math..et al). The undergraduates have to prove they are worthy, by demonstrating they have the ability to solve problems.

Sure, I was talking more about the sound engineering degrees and such like.

[HourglassStudios]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

No it doesn't, it shows they have the ability research it and write about it.

That's why, for the vocational subjects, they are fairly pointless.

I feel this is a bit strict to say you're attending Westminster for Commercial Music. (Don't get me wrong this isn't me being rude, as it is my back up choice for next year)

Education teaches you how to learn, as when you leave school you don't stop learning, you just advance to a place where no-one is around to show you how to do everything.

I think the main problem is not universities, but dedicated colleges set up for teaching these subjects. Its in the news at the moment about the humanities college in London trying to join the University of London although it is pretty much a business as opposed to a place of learning. It was set up to generate profit, not educate.

This is what is happening with companies like SSR and SAE. I actually attended SSR (The school of sound recording for those unfamiliar) for a week for a beginners course, and I didn't really believe that the teacher was qualified to do a full year course. A week was interesting but a year would have been wasted. There was little learning, more "Look how I push faders and talk to musicians!".

And theory is a very important side, which is often skipped over in these courses where people just want to get hands on. Astrophysicists don't learn by jumping in at the deep end and using theories and models, as they have no idea what they mean when starting.

Engineering is a science after all, and theory allows people to understand what they are doing and can thus control it better.

To summarise, I don't really know what I was trying to say, but I guess the bottom line comes at wherever there is money to be made people will make it, especially as the studio industry shrinks.

They prey on the ignorant and the apathetic, and are making a bundle.

Hope thats not all jibberish

[QuadWing]

Originally Posted by AlexDaCat

From your final statement, I take it you are ANTI EDUCATION. How would you be able to sit in front of your computer if there was no education. Your statement is irresponsible and completely ignorant.

Perhaps he's like me? I've had a really bad experience all through school (elementary to high school which I'm dual enrolled into a community college now). Doesn't quite mean he's anti-education, I'm certainly not, it just means that he may not have the best opinion of it.

[ngarjuna]

I don't even know what s2_Audio is talking about. Most of university for me was sitting at the console with one of the most legendary recording engineers ever sitting at my side helping gain experience while I recorded and mixed the musicians from the college of music next door. It was there that he not only taught me how to mix but how to solder, how to talk to musicians and how to make it in life. My first studio job, wiring patch bays, was essentially gifted to me by the dept. chair because of my work at University. It was there that I got to work on class A equipment for the first time (more than at school, anyway, which had at least some good equipment).

If that's not good experience, I don't know what is.

In addition to recording I got a second degree (which has kept me fed all these years after the studios I started with after college each went out of business) and an excellent general education that has enriched my knowledge and made me a much more well rounded person.

I'm not trying to suggest that a University education is for everybody or that it's even the best way into engineering. But to say that it has little or no value is nonsense; it would only be true to someone who insisted on following your particular path to the 'T'. And really...nobody cares about that, they just want to know they can get where they're going.

[Piranhadrum]

For those of us pursing self employment as engineers/studio owners, I think taking college level courses for business management is more important overall and in the long run.

You can always shadow in between that.

Recording, editing, mixing and mastering are the easy part....attracting and maintaining a consistant/steady flow of clients is the hard part.


Just my two cents.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by ngarjuna

I don't even know what s2_Audio is talking about. Most of university for me was sitting at the console with one of the most legendary recording engineers ever sitting at my side helping gain experience while I recorded and mixed the musicians from the college of music next door. It was there that he not only taught me how to mix but how to solder, how to talk to musicians and how to make it in life. My first studio job, wiring patch bays, was essentially gifted to me by the dept. chair because of my work at University. It was there that I got to work on class A equipment for the first time (more than at school, anyway, which had at least some good equipment).

If that's not good experience, I don't know what is.

He "taught you how to mix"?....

interesting...... so you "learned how to mix" in a few seminars?

[ngarjuna]

Originally Posted by narcoman

He "taught you how to mix"?....

interesting...... so you "learned how to mix" in a few seminars?

A proper four year degree doesnt occur in "a few seminars". Your assumption that legendary engineers only drop in for weekend seminars is incorrect.

As I suspected many "critics" here simply have no idea what they're criticizing.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by ngarjuna

A proper four year degree doesnt occur in "a few seminars". Your assumption that legendary engineers only drop in for weekend seminars is incorrect.

As I suspected many "critics" here simply have no idea what they're criticizing.

I was asking a question, although in a slightly "raised eyebrows" way. (Know how many CV's I get a month?)

I am biased though - I'm part of an industry wide group trying to get the government (UK) to legislate and cap "degree places" in audio engineering. We're also trying, but failing, to get one of the big money grabbers shut down. If you don't mind me asking - which four year degree?

This critic DOES know that most of the courses (although not all - but even then we just don't need that many!!) are utter crap - whether taught by "legends" or not. As an ex- university lecturer I am very familiar with the mechanics of education (I taught maths and electronics whilst working my PhD - gave it all up for rock n roll), and now as a successful music company owner I have a handle on the every day needs of the music industry with respect to production.

University courses, on the whole, aren't it. I'm sure your course gave you a good grounding in the principals - but to assert that you "learned to mix" on a course is akin to "learning to plumb" on the two year apprenticeship or "learning law" on an LLB. I cannot recall the last time I employed a mix engineer with anything less than 15 years experience...... maybe it's just the way I read it.... nobody "learns to mix" in 4 years.

[ngarjuna]

Originally Posted by narcoman

I was asking a question, although in a slightly "raised eyebrows" way. (Know how many CV's I get a month?)

I am biased though - I'm part of an industry wide group trying to get the government (UK) to legislate and cap "degree places" in audio engineering. We're also trying, but failing, to get one of the big money grabbers shut down. If you don't mind me asking - which four year degree?

This critic DOES know that most of the courses (although not all - but even then we just don't need that many!!) are utter crap - whether taught by "legends" or not. As an ex- university lecturer I am very familiar with the mechanics of education (I taught maths and electronics whilst working my PhD - gave it all up for rock n roll), and now as a successful music company owner I have a handle on the every day needs of the music industry with respect to production.

University courses, on the whole, aren't it. I'm sure your course gave you a good grounding in the principals - but to assert that you "learned to mix" on a course is akin to "learning to plumb" on the two year apprenticeship or "learning law" on an LLB. I cannot recall the last time I employed a mix engineer with anything less than 15 years experience...... maybe it's just the way I read it.... nobody "learns to mix" in 4 years.

ETA: my degree is from Webster University in the states.

Well it wasn't the end of the road, it was the beginning. If it sounded like I left school as an excellent mixer then of course that's not the case, I still learn new things about the craft daily. I also didn't start school as an eighteen year old, I worked for years as a FOH mixer before I was able to afford to pursue the kind of education I wanted to get. But yeah, obviously none of us graduated and walked right into amazing lead engineer gigs; and rightfully so we had no real experience.

It's all a non-unique complaint: in any subject simply 'having a degree' doesn't automatically mean that much. Anyone hiring should know that experience and attitude are potentially as important as one's training.

As I said I'm not trying to assert that everyone or anyone should pursue a degree. But to suggest that a university education is inferior to fetching coffee says more about a poster's aspirations than it does about reality. I spent my days for four years immersed in recording versus gophering for people immersed in recording. I'll agree that it didn't help my career in the music industry but I'm pretty satisfied with my choice overall. It's all about one's aims.

[spiderman]

I would major in music and minor in computer science or business. While you're going to school do everything possible to intern at a local studio or two. Hopefully one of them will give you some part-time work to boot.

You could also major in electrical engineering and minor in music.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by ngarjuna

But to suggest that a university education is inferior to fetching coffee says more about a poster's aspirations than it does about reality. I spent my days for four years immersed in recording versus gophering for people immersed in recording. I'll agree that it didn't help my career in the music industry but I'm pretty satisfied with my choice overall. It's all about one's aims.

"fetching coffee" roles - actually this IS the best way to learn the ropes. BUT it won't help understanding the science and it isn't an easy role to land. BUT - neither do many of the degree courses. I don't know your course, so I cannot comment, but suffice to say the two most successful (and university backed) courses in the UK are absolute crap (although they do have a couple of well known graduates). In the UK I could only recommend LIPA and Surrey Tonmeister. The rest can go suck eggs...

My main issue is education is a prep for life - as you have noted, a music tech degree hasn't assisted you in getting work (that'll be down to you). It's an oversubscribed sector of work..... but the colleges sell it as a dream. My issue is the privatised university ethics....

Having "a degree" in wanted subjects absolutely DOES help - programming, engineering, law or medicine..... difficult degrees, needed workers and a road to getting a good career. Can't say the same about arts degrees...... however I acknowledge that it comes down to motivation and aspirations. It's one of the reasons why places should be capped....

[te-problematique]

Originally Posted by spiderman

I would major in music and minor in computer science or business. While you're going to school do everything possible to intern at a local studio or two. Hopefully one of them will give you some part-time work to boot.

You could also major in electrical engineering and minor in music.

I sort of did this. I've got an honours music degree and a BA in Communication Studies/Marketing. While at uni I picked up some computer science papers and learned enough to be able to teach myself to be a web developer. I now derive my main income from that and that allows me to slowly build up gear and work on music and recoridng projects. I've just moved cities so things are a bit slow, but where I used to live this allowed me and a couple of friends who took similar paths a really good balance between having money and still being able to do sound/music.

The thing for me is, I've spent enough time working shitty live gigs to know that I'd rather recording and music in general not be full time and I still love it, than be full time and hate it.

To each their own.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by spiderman

I would major in music and minor in computer science or business. While you're going to school do everything possible to intern at a local studio or two...

A-Men!

The relationships you create during the early part of your career are often what support you. This is why interning is important. It's also why a music school could be much more valuable than a recording program. Most jobs come by way of word of mouth. Who knows what you are capable of is generally what creates opportunities.

[oldeanalogueguy]

Originally Posted by The Byre

When we remember that the tale of Toby Tyler was a total work of total fiction . . .

School or not school? Easy - school!

Of course it should not be some bogus recording school (The Wysuckie College for the Terminally Dumb) but a course of study in a recognised academic or technical subject, but you still need to be able to read the sheet music and a circuit diagram in this business - and nowadays, you need to be able to operate Logic and PT at ninja level as well.

Going to college is paying dues. And it is doing so at a time when the feeble-minded are wasting their lives, goofing off!

Toby tyler is bad science fiction.
you cant learn to do that by watching.

Trade schools for music/audio - overpriced scams.
University - overpriced for marginally related info.
community college classes that are pertinent are the biggest bargain around. pick what you need to learn, reinforce it with labs. add in home recording diy and you have a solid base to really do this and perhaps even get a job.