To School or Not to School

[AstralPStudios]

There's nothing wrong with furthering your education and walking out happy and with a new direction and outlook on things. If you're serious, go for it, if you're not, maybe pick something different and have fun with audio on the side.

Hearing stories and seeing faces has brought me to the reality that these eager young freshly educated people are generally not being taught the hard reality of the entertainment business. It is a reality that has prevailed since the beginnings of the entertainment industry itself.

That depends on the school/instructor. Luckily mine were mostly "to the point" hard asses, learned a ton of valuable things from them that I'll never forget.

The young people I see in schools and freshly out of them seem to have missed the story of Toby Tyler somewhere along the way. They seem to have the idea that once they have learned how to operate a particular system or more to the point, have stood behind the bleachers watching someone else perform, that they are ready to “be the show”, without shoveling any elephant dung. Hey kids, Toby Tyler knew this, the people in the industry before you know this and hopefully if you use your whole brain so will you; the rule is simple:

I did it and I don't regret a thing, nor are they overpriced scams. You get out what you put in...and if you put in crap work and no time, you're definitely going to be in the "bleachers". If one isn't serious, it's not worth the time, but if you are, you can learn many valuable things from a great school. By the time 401 (live sound) people dropped out like flies because they couldn't cut it and weren't fully invested in every part of audio and entertainment business. I found it pretty disrespectful.

[s2_Audio]

Nope, you are 100% wrong but thanks for the response. If I was ANTI EDUCATION you wouldn't know who I was would you???? I'd not get involved, I'd not open myself to others opinion of mine. I would not be answering you almost a year later.

Simple dude, just not easy huh? Paying dues is ...learning how to service our customers. Function comes from school in an ever changing world of keep-up. Form is an art learned through application ...it is how it has worked for me, just sharing.

Please feel free to take it, leave it or better, write your own opinion. Thanks again man.
s2

[Beat Poet]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

So, in summary - nothing wrong with going to school / college / university. At all. In fact, if you can afford it, it is STILL beneficial. It's just, you need to know that it is NOT a shortcut into industry. It's an aid, but not a bypass through the 'hard work' stages. Once people get their head around that, they'll be able to make the most of their education, which is a valuable thing to partake in if you can afford it and are academically enthusiastic. But don't just go to university because everyone else is, or because you think it's going to stop you having to carry steeldeck before you can do the FOH sound.

I said the same thing on an another thread and had someone telling me what a load of old claptrap it was. He went to a recording school which gave internships and he made his way up through that. Good work and it was obviously a good school that functioned as an academy for recording engineers, which obviously the place you want to be if you want it to be worthwhile.

Going on a run-of-the-mill audio course at university doesn't catapult you into your dream job though and it certainly doesn't shape you into the final product. What it can do though is arm you with an analytical brain, but through writing 5000 word reports than doing anything practical.

[The Byre]

The only problem with this whole debate is, there are some 35,000 graduates of accredited courses and well over 130,000 graduates of private nonsense courses in the US (6,500 & 25,000 in the UK) every year.

And they all think they are going to beat the odds and work hard and get one of the handful of openings in the industry.

[Bob Olhsson]

Probably the best thing a school provides besides relationships with the other students is practice in the ability to learn. It is nearly certain that by the time recording technology gets turned into course-work and classes the details will be obsolete by the time a student sets out on a career. In some cases I've seen, remarkably obsolete. An integral part of my work has always been learning new technology so as to empower the performers who I collaborate with.

[Piranhadrum]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Probably the best thing a school provides besides relationships with the other students is practice in the ability to learn.

Agreed, I went to a 30 credit certificate course 6 years ago and I've kept in touch most of the people in my classes....they are all in the audio field in some form or another (live sound, studio, sound tech etc.,). The networking alone was the most important.

[Humanzee]

I'm just about to graduate with a bachelors of science in music. While the price tag of my education continues to make me sick to my stomach, I have to say that I don't think I could have learned as much as I have in the last four years on my own. I worked all sorts of crummy jobs after high school. I finally decided to go to college for audio production to pursue some sort of career working with music. Since I am not a particularly talented musician I went for recording. I have no delusions of grandeur, I didn't set out to be the next Eddy Kramer, I don't expect to land my first gig as monitor engineer for U2. I just want to be able to earn a modest living working with music and musicians in some capacity. Ideally I'd like to create my own business out of it, which is a whole different level of stress with high failure rates. I know this.

Some people don't need to pay for school in recording arts. Some people get into it from an early age and learn it all by reading, listening, and doing it themselves. I have a lot of respect for them. I was basically just a music lover that got sick of doing drywall for a living and decided to cast my lot with a college education. Whether it pays off is yet to be seen. But, like I said, I have crammed an enormous amount of recording knowledge into my brain in four years and have had the opportunity to learn from professionals in the field network with tons of people, and get experience with equipment that I might never be able to afford on my own.

A friend of mine who works as an audio tech in Vegas told me once "Who you know gets your foot in the door, what you know keeps you there and furthers your career." I think it's a good word to live by in this industry. You can't discount the networking opportunities that a good school will provide.

[narcoman]

Good luck in your endeavours but it does puzzle me how music degrees have become BSc !!!! Lot of math and physics in your particular degree? in which case it's a lot more than music no??

[NickNagurka]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Good luck in your endeavours but it does puzzle me how music degrees have become BSc !!!! Lot of math and physics in your particular degree? in which case it's a lot more than music no??

I'm in the same kind of boat - about to graduate with a BFA in music, with a concentration on music composition and production. The coursework is widely varied - computer science, acoustics, classical theory, composition, film, performance art, algorithmic composition....the works. I think school is a great opportunity to grow as a person, learn how to make your own conclusions and practice your art. No, it's not the real world (how shocking!) but learning how to form relationships and work people is up to you.

I know plenty of people in my program who probably won't get jobs or even have a shot. Not the university's fault. You've got to want it so badly that it keeps you up at night. You've gotta have people skills and extend yourself into the community you want to be a part of.

Oh, and sometimes, being a badass at what you do is an assumed quality.

[fastlanestoner]

Education is always a good idea and I guarantee you'll be turned on to many other subjects that interest you. It can be a good way to discover other avenues.

[TooYoungForThis]

Alright, as a graduate of the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences I better put in my 2 cents.

I don't know about SAE, but the 8 month course I took was pretty bogus, 4 years later I am in $20K in debt. Now, don't get me wrong, I learned a lot at the Conservatory, I as able to get first hand experience with great gear and with running sessions, BUT this was because I took the time to study and book sessions. They have some great studios there that you can use 24/7 so if you spend a lot of time there you can get your money's worth.
Also, my father is an audio engineer so I learned half of this stuff growing up anyway...
NO ONE in my class is still in the industry in any way. They all thought they would get jobs right out of school.

What really attracted me was the internship placement, Its hard out there to get one on your own. I moved to NYC right after I graduated and got placed at Brooklyn Recording. Now, I never really got to do any work in studio, just cleaning and making coffee. One hot day about 2 weeks into it the owner stomped in, used me as his emotional punching bag, and then fired me. I called the internship office and they were like "oh yeah, he does that." Now they had another batch of kids about to leave the school so they were more worried about placing them into internships that dealing with me. So, I had to find my own internship to graduate. This was a major let down.

So its been 4 Years since I graduated and have had a few different internships at post-houses and a job as the head tech in a Turntable/DJ repair shop. Those internships and repair work are what got me my job today, but I wouldn't have had the internships with out the school.

In the end, its like much like everything in life - HARD WORK AND LUCK. School means nothing if you're not applying yourself.

[HermanV]

Originally Posted by TooYoungForThis

Alright, as a graduate of the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences I better put in my 2 cents.

I don't know about SAE, but the 8 month course I took was pretty bogus, 4 years later I am in $20K in debt. Now, don't get me wrong, I learned a lot at the Conservatory, I as able to get first hand experience with great gear and with running sessions, BUT this was because I took the time to study and book sessions. They have some great studios there that you can use 24/7 so if you spend a lot of time there you can get your money's worth.
Also, my father is an audio engineer so I learned half of this stuff growing up anyway...
NO ONE in my class is still in the industry in any way. They all thought they would get jobs right out of school.

What really attracted me was the internship placement, Its hard out there to get one on your own. I moved to NYC right after I graduated and got placed at Brooklyn Recording. Now, I never really got to do any work in studio, just cleaning and making coffee. One hot day about 2 weeks into it the owner stomped in, used me as his emotional punching bag, and then fired me. I called the internship office and they were like "oh yeah, he does that." Now they had another batch of kids about to leave the school so they were more worried about placing them into internships that dealing with me. So, I had to find my own internship to graduate. This was a major let down.

So its been 4 Years since I graduated and have had a few different internships at post-houses and a job as the head tech in a Turntable/DJ repair shop. Those internships and repair work are what got me my job today, but I wouldn't have had the internships with out the school.

In the end, its like much like everything in life - HARD WORK AND LUCK. School means nothing if you're not applying yourself.

I know exactly what you mean. Only 3 of the people I went to school with are doing audio work and we have not made any money. I don't know how anyone is paying their loans. I shared my story earlier in the thread. I have decided I am going to actually play music in bands again since it is one of the best ways to network and last night I played bass for a singer songwriter. I went from recording his demos in my apartment set up to joining the band.

[NickNagurka]

Originally Posted by HermanV

I know exactly what you mean. Only 3 of the people I went to school with are doing audio work and we have not made any money. I don't know how anyone is paying their loans. I shared my story earlier in the thread. I have decided I am going to actually play music in bands again since it is one of the best ways to network and last night I played bass for a singer songwriter. I went from recording his demos in my apartment set up to joining the band.

I feel you guys, I graduate from the University of Michigan this Saturday. We'll see how this whole freelancing bit goes...

[TooYoungForThis]

Originally Posted by NickNagurka

I feel you guys, I graduate from the University of Michigan this Saturday. We'll see how this whole freelancing bit goes...

I did a lot of super cheep freelance work for student filmmakers (most don't take sound classes or don't pay attention in them). Didn't make a whole lot of money but I was able to build a reel that got me some paying work and an internship in a real post house. Same can be done for music mixing if you know some bands with no budget I guess. I still recommend interning, no matter what field you want to go into. Nothing can replace learning directly from pros.

[HermanV]

Originally Posted by TooYoungForThis

I did a lot of super cheep freelance work for student filmmakers (most don't take sound classes or don't pay attention in them). Didn't make a whole lot of money but I was able to build a reel that got me some paying work and an internship in a real post house. Same can be done for music mixing if you know some bands with no budget I guess. I still recommend interning, no matter what field you want to go into. Nothing can replace learning directly from pros.

I did the same thing. A teacher at the school liked my work in class and he took me under his wing and gave me work. I also did student films from two different local schools. I even have some imdb credits, Films that got play in festivals. I also worked with a composer who got me to do all the technical stuff (calibrating, dialogue editing, noise reduction, foley, etc.) while he did sound design and music. My point is; Most of us can't afford to do this for the amount of money that is out there. I am young and still learning. I have done various internships and to be honest; People want you to be their b*tch and I am done with that. How are you gonna ask for an intern to work 12 or more hour days and with the requirements of a college degree and a reliable car with no pay?! Maybe I just haven't met the right people that could lead me to a "real" internship but I can't afford to go that route anymore.

[NickNagurka]

Originally Posted by TooYoungForThis

I did a lot of super cheep freelance work for student filmmakers (most don't take sound classes or don't pay attention in them). Didn't make a whole lot of money but I was able to build a reel that got me some paying work and an internship in a real post house. Same can be done for music mixing if you know some bands with no budget I guess. I still recommend interning, no matter what field you want to go into. Nothing can replace learning directly from pros.

Yeah, I've been freelancing in the Ann Arbor/Detroit area for about a year now...the biggest question for me is whether there's enough work to keep me busy before I move away. I've already done the internship thing and the film bit...that's all fine and good, but I'm ready to start paying off the $100,000 in loans I have.

Just like everyone else, I'm ready and willing to put forth all my effort into a project that I believe in for little or no money. However, I've spent 2 years offering my services for free, and doing jazz sessions for free doesn't help my career or pay the bills

[projektk]

Originally Posted by TooYoungForThis

Alright, as a graduate of the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences I better put in my 2 cents.

I don't know about SAE, but the 8 month course I took was pretty bogus, 4 years later I am in $20K in debt. Now, don't get me wrong, I learned a lot at the Conservatory, I as able to get first hand experience with great gear and with running sessions, BUT this was because I took the time to study and book sessions. They have some great studios there that you can use 24/7 so if you spend a lot of time there you can get your money's worth.
Also, my father is an audio engineer so I learned half of this stuff growing up anyway...
NO ONE in my class is still in the industry in any way. They all thought they would get jobs right out of school.

What really attracted me was the internship placement, Its hard out there to get one on your own. I moved to NYC right after I graduated and got placed at Brooklyn Recording. Now, I never really got to do any work in studio, just cleaning and making coffee. One hot day about 2 weeks into it the owner stomped in, used me as his emotional punching bag, and then fired me. I called the internship office and they were like "oh yeah, he does that." Now they had another batch of kids about to leave the school so they were more worried about placing them into internships that dealing with me. So, I had to find my own internship to graduate. This was a major let down.

So its been 4 Years since I graduated and have had a few different internships at post-houses and a job as the head tech in a Turntable/DJ repair shop. Those internships and repair work are what got me my job today, but I wouldn't have had the internships with out the school.

In the end, its like much like everything in life - HARD WORK AND LUCK. School means nothing if you're not applying yourself.

I completely agree. Wish I knew there was a school in my area that offered a 2 year program with Associates Degree as well. This was an audio engineering school and is only $3500. I paid $14k for a one year program and no degree of any kind.

On the bright side after only 5 years LOL I got my first real client at $20 an hour 4-8 hours a week. I know for a fact I could have handled him without the school. I learn more from here than I ever did from that 1 year.

I found out about ADC 2 years after school LOL. My guitar center co-employees told me about it, but the $14k school didn't. It was Sound Master by the way, Pinnacle College now.

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