Shut up_Make Coffee

[Riddler]

Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo555

I keep telling these young and in all fairness, enthusiastic kids, that the kit comes and goes (referring to the poster know mentioned ProTools) - so what?
It means nothing. Technology means nothing - it is a tool. A means to generate and capture source material.

What REALLY matters is the human-interaction aspect. Being able to converse with a client, and NOT be intrusive in any way (especially at the "entry"-level. You're a service role. Nothing else, whilst trying to get your head around the monumental jump from school education to real-world training.

And 85% of the kids just don't get it, or won't accept it. PEOPLE make music for PEOPLE to listen to. The tech (which is what the students focus on), means very little.*

Joe Public (a) don't care (b) don't know if an edit or recording was done on ProTools or a box of tools.

Based on my experience ScoobyDoo555 is painting a very accurate picture. Marvel at the technology, but if you want to enjoy a career in audio you have to be excited about the physics of sound, not the technology of sound.

Another point in ScoobyDoo555's excellent post is that Joe Public don't care about the equipment used to make a recording. I'd like to explain my reasons for why I consider this to be so important.

My studio has two distinct sources of revenue; "creative" work and "corporate" work. Creative work is the work for artists/labels and projects involve much more intense and complicated work for far less pay. Corporate work is, in most cases, far more straightforward (voiceovers, editing, sync etc.) but is far more lucrative.

The percentage of clients who ask about equipment before/during/after a project on the corporate side is close to 0%. A client will ask "can you do this?" not "does your studio have a sonicombubulator99x that we can use?".

I'm not interested if my carpenter is using a Festool biscuit joiner or a Homebase Value hacksaw. My friend showed me the work he did and said that he was an honest chap, so that's why I use him. I found that he indeed was an honest chap and because he's so easy to deal with, I've never even considered looking for another carpenter.

A massive portion of ANY business is dealing with people in a pleasant, polite and efficient manner.

Tim.

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by Riddler

Based on my experience ScoobyDoo555 is painting a very accurate picture. Marvel at the technology, but if you want to enjoy a career in audio you have to be excited about the physics of sound, not the technology of sound.

Another point in ScoobyDoo555's excellent post is that Joe Public don't care about the equipment used to make a recording. I'd like to explain my reasons for why I consider this to be so important.

My studio has two distinct sources of revenue; "creative" work and "corporate" work. Creative work is the work for artists/labels and projects involve much more intense and complicated work for far less pay. Corporate work is, in most cases, far more straightforward (voiceovers, editing, sync etc.) but is far more lucrative.

The percentage of clients who ask about equipment before/during/after a project on the corporate side is close to 0%. A client will ask "can you do this?" not "does your studio have a sonicombubulator99x that we can use?".

I'm not interested if my carpenter is using a Festool biscuit joiner or a Homebase Value hacksaw. My friend showed me the work he did and said that he was an honest chap, so that's why I use him. I found that he indeed was an honest chap and because he's so easy to deal with, I've never even considered looking for another carpenter.

A massive portion of ANY business is dealing people in a pleasant, polite and efficient manner.

Tim.

LMAO

Aaaand agreed. That's another part of what makes a great intern: People skills.

[woodnote]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Amen, I have a kid in here now who HAS OPINIONS! And then on Friday I'm working on a mix I have him write the recall sheets and I tell him how I want it done, and of course he thinks he has a better idea. Like marking things in different color ink rather than pencil.

Sounds to me like he may have been just trying to help you organize something a little better for quicker viewing. No reason to bite a head off, just explain why and that you appreciate him trying to make things a little easier on you but you prefer things done your way and you would like him to do as he's told.

And there is one reason why they can be more trouble than they are worth. It's nice to be ambitious, but if he was asked to do something a certain way, like specifically use pencil, and especially if it's on someone else's dime, that is not the time to come up with bright ideas and improvise.

IN NO WAY AM I DEFENDING THE ENTITLED YOUTH. no ****ing way.

This made me laugh out loud! I do realize that some studios are sketchy and only take in an intern for the free labor. That's horse****. I take them in because they have a love of sound and want to be involved and learn. And I'm more than happy to help someone like that. But the second they have some entitled attitude, so long!

Not every intern works for free believe it or not and it's completely illegal to make someone work for free, this isn't a slave country anymore and interns aren't slaves.

I agree! So how much do you propose the interns pay us for our work, teaching them certain aspects of the recording business? I know I've never been paid to spend hours upon hours teaching an intern how to do things. And now that I've been reminded that this isn't a slave country anymore, I realize I need to charge my interns. Great idea!

[sameal]

Originally Posted by woodnote

This made me laugh out loud! I do realize that some studios are sketchy and only take in an intern for the free labor. That's horse****. I take them in because they have a love of sound and want to be involved and learn. And I'm more than happy to help someone like that. But the second they have some entitled attitude, so long!

well that was my experience anyways. i couldn't name you two things i learned at 99% of my internships, other then the last one, when i ran out of money to live on and had to go find a job. and it landed me right back in manufacturing. so off to college i go, to pursue some other job i may not get.

i think i need to move out of Illinois. if you have ever been here for an extended period of time, everything here has a rain cloud hovering over it. the weather is shitty, and so is everything else just about.

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by woodnote

And there is one reason why they can be more trouble than they are worth. It's nice to be ambitious, but if he was asked to do something a certain way, like specifically use pencil, and especially if it's on someone else's dime, that is not the time to come up with bright ideas and improvise.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you but it comes across as pretty harsh thanks to the interwebs lol. Chances are we both realize he was trying to impress you or SOMETHING to get you to notice his efforts further, he could've done two different ones, one the way you asked and one in the easier to read way and I'm sure that would've been more acceptable, but I just think you're being a wee bit harsh on someone who's trying to make your a life a little easier .

I agree! So how much do you propose the interns pay us for our work, teaching them certain aspects of the recording business? I know I've never been paid to spend hours upon hours teaching an intern how to do things. And now that I've been reminded that this isn't a slave country anymore, I realize I need to charge my interns. Great idea!

Thing is: You're not a school and you don't have an accredited teaching license nor is your studio an accredited recording studio now is it? Therefore it works the other way around, they're WORKING for YOU at the same time as learning. It's a give/take thing, you HAVE to pay employees, that's just how it works.

You need the help or you wouldn't have an intern. Pay them. Work and learning go hand in hand. Even if someone is working at wally world they're learning people skills and guess what? They get paid for it.

[taturana]

I was always much better in my own studio than as an intern... learned a bit, but not enough. the best stuff i learned doing it by myself...

I guess some people make good assistants. some have to work by their own guidelines.

[mikedunn211290]

I used to get to college (senior high) very early, we're talking two hours, get the studios set up for my teachers, get to studios and sit there and do filing for hours and then when anything came up, no matter how crap, I did it. I never complained, and always volunteered to work with the smallest clients all the way to the big ones.

Stuff like that got me some incredible contacts, and i've been very lucky since.
That, and working in Marketing...

Get yourself known, don't be cocky, and make sure you always think ahead of the game. Suggest ideas, but don't go insane, you're not there to change the world.

Mike

[woodnote]

Originally Posted by AstralPStudios

Thing is: You're not a school and you don't have an accredited teaching license nor is your studio an accredited recording studio now is it? Therefore it works the other way around, they're WORKING for YOU at the same time as learning. It's a give/take thing, you HAVE to pay employees, that's just how it works.

You need the help or you wouldn't have an intern. Pay them. Work and learning go hand in hand. Even if someone is working at wally world they're learning people skills and guess what? They get paid for it.

Actually I was pretty vocal that I don't need their help. There's nothing I can't do in my own studio on my own. I think we're arguing over two different types of studios. We already agreed that the guys who bring in interns strictly for the free help are douches. But as I said before, when I do take an intern, it's for their sake, not mine. In that situation, there is literally no gain for me to do it. I don't get paid for it. I don't get any tax break. If a project normally is going to take me 8 hours to complete, it's now going to take me 12 because I have to stop and explain what I'm doing. I'm losing money doing that.

You know the "Mix with the Masters" classes? People pay top dollar to learn from industry giants, who I doubt have an accredited teaching license. How is that any different? Interning is just a smaller scale, less glorified version of Mix with the Masters. So from my personal standpoint, I don't look at it as having an employee at all. I look at it as having a student. And if their attitude is they ought to be paid to learn, then I ought to be paid for teaching.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by AstralPStudios

N
There's nothing wrong with having opinions, everyone has them. Sounds to me like he may have been just trying to help you organize something a little better for quicker viewing. No reason to bite a head off, just explain why and that you appreciate him trying to make things a little easier on you but you prefer things done your way and you would like him to do as he's told.

Just sounds like he may have been trying to color code things for you to try and make it easier for you to locate spots on the recall sheet faster.

What's so difficult about that? See? Problem solved...

Well first I didn't bite his head off, but I showed him how I wanted it done, and he decided he had a better idea, like writing in ink when I'm starting to get a mix up, and might change things around which we did, and threw away his paperwork and started over. The opinions were NOT about this but recording and production opinions about the project we were working on during his FIRST DAY, and my first day with a new client. Maybe you want opinions from someone who is there to learn from you, I wouldn't have minded if he saved them for after the session, but not during a session in front of a client not ever.

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Well first I didn't bite his head off, but I showed him how I wanted it done, and he decided he had a better idea, like writing in ink when I'm starting to get a mix up, and might change things around which we did, and threw away his paperwork and started over. The opinions were NOT about this but recording and production opinions about the project we were working on during his FIRST DAY, and my first day with a new client. Maybe you want opinions from someone who is there to learn from you, I wouldn't have minded if he saved them for after the session, but not during a session in front of a client not ever.

Ahhh gotcha, I was gonna say seems silly to go into rage mode for a track sheet but during/before an immediate session, I definitely side with ya.

Now you get into an even more important part of being an intern...don't give an opinion unless asked for one. Same goes for anyone else in the room that is not a part of the band or production. If it's not one of the members or a producer GTFO. lol.

You know the "Mix with the Masters" classes? People pay top dollar to learn from industry giants, who I doubt have an accredited teaching license. How is that any different? Interning is just a smaller scale, less glorified version of Mix with the Masters. So from my personal standpoint, I don't look at it as having an employee at all. I look at it as having a student. And if their attitude is they ought to be paid to learn, then I ought to be paid for teaching.

How is it different? Because it's still a service, they're marketing it as that service, you're not marketing yourself as a primer/teacher for recording school graduates and students or aspiring mix engineers, those classes are. You're a business owner, when you bring an intern on, that's called an employee, I really suggest doing some legal study on the issue. You pay employees, It's that simple.

Start calling your interns "students" because they're not interns. Obviously, you're just teaching them, they're not actually doing anything right? Not cleaning your floors, not making your coffee, not cleaning out your fridge, not labeling inputs, not being runners, not working for you, not doing what you tell them as a boss. They're just sitting there with a notebook and pencil taking notes eh?

It's no wonder they "keep you from doing your job" if you're not letting them help you do anything like they're supposed to. lol. ridiculous.

http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_an...-internsh.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71vAd...eature=related

I've never seen such a huge group of unethical business people.

There's a start for ALL of you.

[woodnote]

Originally Posted by AstralPStudios

How is it different? Because it's still a service, they're marketing it as that service, you're not marketing yourself as a primer/teacher for recording school graduates and students or aspiring mix engineers, those classes are.

What does marketing have to do with it? Do you really not see any similarities? They are both situations where someone wants to get hands-on experience from someone who knows more than they do, no matter how you market it. You're getting really hung up on this licensing/accrediting thing. An intern is still a student, no matter how you want to dress it up.

You're a business owner, when you bring an intern on, that's called an employee, I really suggest doing some legal study on the issue. You pay employees, It's that simple.

I am a business owner, who gets calls from schools asking if I'll accept one of their students for an internship. Not if I'll hire one of their students who is not yet qualified to work in the field competently. Big difference. And when the schools do call, it is ALWAYS an unpaid internship. The interns know it, the school knows it. If it were illegal, I doubt these schools would be actively participating in it, and requiring it as a graduation condition.

Start calling your interns "students" because they're not interns.

I'm calling them what their school calls them. Do you not know the difference between an intern and a qualified engineer? If someone wants to apply for a job with me as an engineer, they'll be paid. But an internship assumes they still have more they need to learn before they're competent. Otherwise they'd already be engineer's, wouldn't they? If they're good enough to do the work on their own, they're employees. But they're not. There's so much they don't know that they need real-world, hands on experience with. It is implied that they are coming to get a hands-on learning experience that they can't necessarily get at their school. I really can't stress this enough, as it seems to be the part you are most confused about. They are students. They are still learning. They are not yet competent to do the job. No one is going to hire someone who is admittedly not qualified for the job yet. You keep referring to interns as if they are already capable of performing the job. They aren't. That's why they are interns.

Obviously, you're just teaching them, they're not actually doing anything right? Not cleaning your floors, not making your coffee, not cleaning out your fridge, not labeling inputs, not being runners, not working for you, not doing what you tell them as a boss. They're just sitting there with a notebook and pencil taking notes eh?

Yep! That's exactly what we do. And I'll be happy to let them talk to you first hand if it'll keep you from making such an embarrassing accusation in the future.

It's no wonder they "keep you from doing your job" if you're not letting them help you do anything like they're supposed to. lol. ridiculous.

What? If I'm not letting them do anything, how would they be keeping me from my job? In fact, it is because I take the time to show them how to do things that it keeps me from working uninterrupted.

Labor and Employment Law Blog: Unpaid Internships - Common but Illegal

YouTube - ‪The Ethics Guy: Is an Unpaid Internship Ethical‬‏

I've never seen such a huge group of unethical business people.

There's a start for ALL of you.

Did you actually read you're own link? Particularly this section:

1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school; True.
2. The training is for the benefit of the trainee; True.
3. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under close observation; No other employees to displace. True.
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded; Very true.
5. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the completion of the training period; and True.
6. The employer and the trainee understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training. True.

I meet all those criteria. A LOT of studios do. Honestly, you aren't coming across as some big "working class hero" for interns all across the country. You're coming across as some kid with a chip on his shoulder because he a had a bad time interning somewhere. I do feel sorry for you. But it's clear from your attitude you have no idea what it's like from the other side. Believe it or not, not every studio is out to screw you over and get free labor. Some of us are actually happy help kids who are excited about the field. Now if you're too bitter to acknowledge that, that's your own loss. It's not only borderline offensive, but to blame every studio because of your bad experience runs the risk of giving all interns a bad reputation. Just after reading you're very entitled and misguided comments made me not want to accept the next intern. That would be the real shame- if one intern's belly-aching turned me off from 10 interns who would be happy & grateful for the experience.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by woodnote

What does marketing have to do with it? Do you really not see any similarities? They are both situations where someone wants to get hands-on experience from someone who knows more than they do, no matter how you market it. You're getting really hung up on this licensing/accrediting thing. An intern is still a student, no matter how you want to dress it up.

I am a business owner, who gets calls from schools asking if I'll accept one of their students for an internship. Not if I'll hire one of their students who is not yet qualified to work in the field competently. Big difference. And when the schools do call, it is ALWAYS an unpaid internship. The interns know it, the school knows it. If it were illegal, I doubt these schools would be actively participating in it, and requiring it as a graduation condition.

I'm calling them what their school calls them. Do you not know the difference between an intern and a qualified engineer? If someone wants to apply for a job with me as an engineer, they'll be paid. But an internship assumes they still have more they need to learn before they're competent. Otherwise they'd already be engineer's, wouldn't they? If they're good enough to do the work on their own, they're employees. But they're not. There's so much they don't know that they need real-world, hands on experience with. It is implied that they are coming to get a hands-on learning experience that they can't necessarily get at their school. I really can't stress this enough, as it seems to be the part you are most confused about. They are students. They are still learning. They are not yet competent to do the job. No one is going to hire someone who is admittedly not qualified for the job yet. You keep referring to interns as if they are already capable of performing the job. They aren't. That's why they are interns.

Yep! That's exactly what we do. And I'll be happy to let them talk to you first hand if it'll keep you from making such an embarrassing accusation in the future.


What? If I'm not letting them do anything, how would they be keeping me from my job? In fact, it is because I take the time to show them how to do things that it keeps me from working uninterrupted.

Did you actually read you're own link? Particularly this section:

1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school; True.
2. The training is for the benefit of the trainee; True.
3. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under close observation; No other employees to displace. True.
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded; Very true.
5. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the completion of the training period; and True.
6. The employer and the trainee understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training. True.

I meet all those criteria. A LOT of studios do. Honestly, you aren't coming across as some big "working class hero" for interns all across the country. You're coming across as some kid with a chip on his shoulder because he a had a bad time interning somewhere. I do feel sorry for you. But it's clear from your attitude you have no idea what it's like from the other side. Believe it or not, not every studio is out to screw you over and get free labor. Some of us are actually happy help kids who are excited about the field. Now if you're too bitter to acknowledge that, that's your own loss. It's not only borderline offensive, but to blame every studio because of your bad experience runs the risk of giving all interns a bad reputation. Just after reading you're very entitled and misguided comments made me not want to accept the next intern. That would be the real shame- if one intern's belly-aching turned me off from 10 interns who would be happy & grateful for the experience.

Well said!

[AstralPStudios]

Originally Posted by woodnote

What does marketing have to do with it? Do you really not see any similarities? They are both situations where someone wants to get hands-on experience from someone who knows more than they do, no matter how you market it. You're getting really hung up on this licensing/accrediting thing. An intern is still a student, no matter how you want to dress it up.

Marketing has a lot to do with everything...and no an intern is not still a student unless they're currently in schooling. Once someone is OUT of school, they're in a position to be paid, especially if they've been around the entire school year or longer.

I am a business owner, who gets calls from schools asking if I'll accept one of their students for an internship. Not if I'll hire one of their students who is not yet qualified to work in the field competently. Big difference. And when the schools do call, it is ALWAYS an unpaid internship. The interns know it, the school knows it. If it were illegal, I doubt these schools would be actively participating in it, and requiring it as a graduation condition.

Because they're in school, that's why an unpaid internship is perfectly legal in that kind of situation, it's hands on, real-world experience in combination to book studies and other school activities.

I'm calling them what their school calls them. Do you not know the difference between an intern and a qualified engineer?

Of course I do. I also know the difference between an assistant engineer and intern.

If someone wants to apply for a job with me as an engineer, they'll be paid. But an internship assumes they still have more they need to learn before they're competent. Otherwise they'd already be engineer's, wouldn't they?

Interns should be paid, especially they're cleaning floors and making coffee which benefits you and your service thus making them an employee. Of course an intern is still going to have more to learn, that's the whole point and why they generally get that part done while IN school...the line gets crossed when the employer is benefiting from all the free labor as in never moving up.

If they're good enough to do the work on their own, they're employees. But they're not. There's so much they don't know that they need real-world, hands on experience with. It is implied that they are coming to get a hands-on learning experience that they can't necessarily get at their school. I really can't stress this enough, as it seems to be the part you are most confused about.


They are students. They are still learning. They are not yet competent to do the job. No one is going to hire someone who is admittedly not qualified for the job yet. You keep referring to interns as if they are already capable of performing the job. They aren't. That's why they are interns.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, never have and I even referenced it above. Interns are generally students IN school, not OUT and most internships are indeed directed towards students. Once one has gotten out of school they shouldn't ever be required to work for free, minimum wage.

So interns aren't capable of already knowing how to sweep floors, make coffee, vacuum and more? I'm pretty sure they are. That's basically janitorial work.

Yep! That's exactly what we do. And I'll be happy to let them talk to you first hand if it'll keep you from making such an embarrassing accusation in the future.

I was making a point there that you apparently missed.


What? If I'm not letting them do anything, how would they be keeping me from my job? In fact, it is because I take the time to show them how to do things that it keeps me from working uninterrupted.

Because if they're not doing what you brought them on to do, they're slowing you down are they not?

Did you actually read you're own link? Particularly this section:

1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school; True.
2. The training is for the benefit of the trainee; True.
3. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under close observation; No other employees to displace. True...whoa now...do they make your coffee, and clean up the place? That's WORK, which is regular employee duty and this is my issue with everything.
   
   
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;Very true.
   
   So your interns aren't runners/adjusting a mic for you/using their gas to go get whatever you may need? They sit there and take notes and do NOTHING else? ^this goes back to BENEFITING from the work.
   
   
5. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the completion of the training period; and True.
6. The employer and the trainee understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training. True.

I meet all those criteria. A LOT of studios do. Honestly, you aren't coming across as some big "working class hero" for interns all across the country. You're coming across as some kid with a chip on his shoulder because he a had a bad time interning somewhere. I do feel sorry for you.

Chip on my shoulder? No, I just believe in fairness and if someone is doing more than taking notes, they should be paid for their time working. That's wrong? I don't think so. I had an internship that went well for a year and after that year I wasn't going to do anything for free anymore, I'd proven myself enough (doing all the legal paperwork, lead gathering, etc, etc, etc.) and no pay = I'm gone.

But it's clear from your attitude you have no idea what it's like from the other side. Believe it or not, not every studio is out to screw you over and get free labor. Some of us are actually happy help kids who are excited about the field. Now if you're too bitter to acknowledge that, that's your own loss. It's not only borderline offensive, but to blame every studio because of your bad experience runs the risk of giving all interns a bad reputation. Just after reading you're very entitled and misguided comments made me not want to accept the next intern. That would be the real shame- if one intern's belly-aching turned me off from 10 interns who would be happy & grateful for the experience.

I never said every studio was out to screw folks over and get free labor now did I? No I did not. Fact is though, way too many people DO. I'm definitely not missing the positive sides of this coin, but it needs to quit, it's completely unfair and pretty rude to string someone along like that and I'd never do it to anyone. Quite a few guys I know have been strung along for a while without being moved up the ladder and they're all bright, smart fellows with the skills needed.

Again, I haven't had a "bad" experience. I'm using something called ethics and common sense, if someone isn't sitting there taking notes, they're WORKING for you.

If my comments made you not want to accept the next intern it's because you're seeing what I'm getting at and how it's such a REALLY FINE LINE between employee and learning...Means it's making you THINK...be it good or bad or saying I'm 110% wrong or right.

Someone elses thoughts, opinions and facts shouldn't cause you to not want to accept someone. I'm simply pointing out things that I really feel people don't take into consideration and NOT just in the studio/music business, it's everywhere. Employers everywhere take advantage of interns and employees for various reasons.

If I'm coming off as attacking or rude or what have you, that's not my intention, I'm just very vocal in my beliefs and opinions and I put my energy and power into everything I say and do and unfortunately it comes off wrong via text :|.

[orangeoctane]

The problem isn't with the youth, it's with the idiots who HIRE them.

Does the industry have such a low unemployment rate that they have no choice but to hire little a$$holes?

Who in their right mind says "Yes. You're a little a$$hole with no customer service skills who has a misguided sense of entitlement. When can you start?".

[woodnote]

I'm not going to quote and respond to all that. You really just don't get it. Again, you can ask my former interns, they will tell you I've never had them clean a toilet or make a pot of coffee. BUT, if they did, they still don't deserve to be paid for it. And they'll agree. They are not coming to me as already trained, capable engineers (even the ones out of school). They are coming to learn through hands-on experience. Which means I need to take time to teach them.

Cleaning and making coffee and doing food runs is nothing more than a respectful attempt to offset the extra time I put into helping an intern learn. They understand this, which is why most interns know they'll be doing menial work at some point during their internship. It shows respect and consideration for the person who's allowing them into their studio, and taking a significant amount of time out of their day to help them learn. And they are learning a valuable part of running a studio, as those things need to get done, no matter who does them. So they take 5 minutes to make a pot of coffee, run out for 20 minutes to get some grinders, and spend an hour cleaning the lounge and bathroom. Then I spend 4 hours going over a session they sat in on with them.

Now if you're insisting they get paid for the 2 hours of work they did for me, I'm going to insist I get paid for the 4 hours of work I did for them. The are utilizing me for my time, knowledge, and experience. They are no different than any other client who comes to me. You don't seem to get this. You think that if I sneeze and they hand me a tissue, they deserve to be paid, because they "helped me out". What you need to understand is that to be deserving of a paycheck, you need to be capable of doing work without someone having to hold your hand the whole time. So yes, I still qualify the criteria of legally not having to pay interns. They might be saving me 2 hours in janitorial work, but they are costing me 4 hours in one-on-one training. At the end of the day, I'm not benefiting from them being there. More importantly, I'm not "using" them.

If they get to the point where they are actually saving me more time than I'm putting into them, then I have no problem paying them. But if you ask any legitimate studio, they'll tell you their business model does not include hiring unskilled people who need to be babysat. I bet if you started a poll in a new thread, and asked established studios if it became law, in spite of the conditions we already meet, to pay interns to come learn, I think you will find the majority of studios will stop accepting internships all together.

[sgmw]

Just to deviate a bit from the raging pay/no pay debate.

I did the sound engineering course at Full Sail around 17 years ago. One of the best lectures we got was on studio behaviour, making comments (ie don't), and expectations of an assistant in a studio environment.

One statement that has stuck with me was 'if you get sent out to get lunch, don't forget the ketchup!'

The lecturer also said one of things to aspire to is having the band ask for you when they book their next session.

For multiple reasons I stayed in IT as a profession, however the advice was and is still relevant. I regularly deal with grads who think they are consultants. Fortunately I have a fairly strong say when it comes to allocating resources to projects.