help me make a plan for a small music release company

[Kikkomen]

Hi,

We are 2 engineers/musicians/producers and 1 composer/musician who have teamed up to make a music release company. We have been involved in all parts of releasing music before, but we dont have extensive knowledge of mastering and new media.

Here are our setups/ideas:

2 studios:

studio 1: for composing. laptop running cubase with reason and waves etc. Line 6 TonePort KB37 will be used to record mainly an el-guitar.

studio 2: for mixing and mastering. yes, we know its not ideal to mix and master in the same studio, but we dont have a choice.

rogers ls-88 monitors for front, rogers ls-66 for surround, paradigm dsp 3200 v2 subwoofer, i7 running cubase and wavelab, two 1tb HDs in RAID0, one 1tb HD as backup disk, oxford native plugins, arc calibration system, yamaha rx-v1900 surround amp. penguin spektrum analyser running on a seperate pentium machine. PreSonus FireStudio Mobile 10x6 interface.

we have a pretty big recording room, 26x13ft. SE electronics 2200a mic. the room will primarily be used to record vocals.

the concept: master, release and market everything ourselves. develop different packages for different groups using new media. make and maintain a website with a store ourselves, currently looking at squarespace.com for this. plan is to not make any physical cds, but try to master as if we were, in regards to quality.

what formats to make available?
what will people pay for? we think audiophiles will pay for higher quality, but which format? cubase uses 32-bit, we could dither to 24-bit and release some mixes in this format. we think this area will move fast, and want to be a part of this progress. as an example, the new oppo players can play 24-bit. Or is our setup not good enough for thinking audiophile music?

we have a 5.1 setup and some of our music is fit for film. how can we get into this market?

our references for this plan is websites like 2l.no, our own desire for better but affordable digital audio and trying to think how we can be pro musicians in the new media.

comments highly appreciated!

[echoRausch]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

..., but we dont have extensive knowledge of mastering and new media.

...

the concept: master, release and market everything ourselves. develop different packages for different groups using new media. make and maintain a website with a store ourselves, currently looking at squarespace.com for this. plan is to not make any physical cds, but try to master as if we were, in regards to quality.

...

Or is our setup not good enough for thinking audiophile music?

You made a concept with "new media" as key but you stated you have no extensive knowledge.

I think that's a major problem.

The other thing is: you are not experienced in mastering but look for the "audiophile" market too.

I wouldn't bother so much about "audiophiles". Try to get your releases as good as possible. Maybe there are audiophiles amongst your customers - may be they are asking you for "better" formats.

I think you should wait until this will happen and then decide how to handle it.

[Kikkomen]

let me rephrase:

- we have knowledge of new media, but its not exhaustive.

- one is a classically trained musician who played with a orchestra in Europe, over 100 concerts pr year.

- one has released 5 albums, some on acclaimed labels.

- we have some knowledge of mastering, but are not experts. One has just finished sound engineering studies. But neither have had the sole responsibility of mastering for release.

- we want to use the internet as the main source of distribution, but not with MP3. Please excuse the inclusion of audiophiles in this context.

[Waltz Mastering]

Selling downloadable 16 and 24 bit files directly from your site seems to be the only thing that will set you apart from the millions of other people selling music on the internet. Is there a market and demand for your music already in any format?

Your mastering experience and proposed equipment to record, master and monitor with does not look impressive. In marketing to people who prefer higher res formats to mp3 it seems the quality of the recordings would be the selling factor, therefore the music, recording and mastering would have be top notch to have a chance. Mastering is not something that is learned very quickly. Usually the best mastering engineers have many years of experience behind them.

[Kikkomen]

ok, so what in the setup reduces this to an mp3 production project?

please make the assumption that there is a demand for our products. this thread is not about that. i really dont want to start listing albums and credentials.

models like these is a must in the new era of the music business, to cut costs and still retain some quality. if you guys totally dismiss all this with general nonsense, its not strange the business itself is doing so badly.

[PBM]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

ok, so what in the setup reduces this to an mp3 production project?

please make the assumption that there is a demand for our products. this thread is not about that. i really dont want to start listing albums and credentials.

models like these is a must in the new era of the music business, to cut costs and still retain some quality. if you guys totally dismiss all this with general nonsense, its not strange the business itself is doing so badly.

What are your products? Music, or services to musicians? I think this board generally has more to say about the latter. It's not clear.

Why are you telling us about your computer back-up system? That wasn't clear to me either.

I'm not being unfriendly, just trying to get your measure, but my business is a success and it didn't start with a list, or anything like this `model'.

Lots of us provide non-CD mastering. In fact more than otherwise these days I'd suspect. I do a lot of FLAC for some classical labels with `audiophile' hopes, but a lot of other stuff is mp3. I don't think it was intended as a criticism. What formats were you thinking of?

Cheers,

Eric

[Kikkomen]

well, i doubt a business will fail because one made a plan. and i am sorry i put the backup disk there, should have known.

you guys have no idea who we are, yet you are treating us like we are a kindergarden. we know you guys are really good, thats why we come here. but its scary to see how you dont want talk and communicate, you instead focus on trivial things or things you dont have the knowledge to make judgements about.

if business models are a new thing to you, its pretty bad. but of course its not. you just use it as a cheap excuse to troll and mess with a newbie that mention internet and doesnt have an outboard lexicon.

but we do appreciate a question, so the answer is: the most likely format for us now is flac. but we will probably end up using several.

[Temposelect]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

you just use it as a cheap excuse to troll and mess with a newbie that mention internet and doesnt have an outboard lexicon.

priceless, where would anyone be in the professional audio world without that outboard lexicon

[Waltz Mastering]

Originally Posted by masterminder

this is a forum you could come to later and ask about clipping your "releases", so they are more unnecessarily loud than other unnecessarily loud releases.

Your post sound bitta'. What kind of shitty music do you listen to that is so clipped?... just curious.

[scraggs]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

what will people pay for? we think audiophiles will pay for higher quality, but which format?

i am all for people putting up hi res versions of their tracks, i think it's a great idea. BUT, i would make them the same price as everything else. the number of people who would likely be interested in 96/24 versions is probably really small. i wouldn't penalize those few people who actually care about the quality.

fwiw, touch and go did this with the last shellac record, they had mp3, 16 bit, and 24 bit versions for sale on their site. all the same price.

[aleatoric]

Sell high quality mp3's (LAME codec, VO or 320) and both FLAC 16/44.1 and FLAC 24/44.1. Beyond that I can't really help you much.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

well, i doubt a business will fail because one made a plan. and i am sorry i put the backup disk there, should have known.

you guys have no idea who we are, yet you are treating us like we are a kindergarden. we know you guys are really good, thats why we come here. but its scary to see how you dont want talk and communicate, you instead focus on trivial things or things you dont have the knowledge to make judgements about.

if business models are a new thing to you, its pretty bad. but of course its not. you just use it as a cheap excuse to troll and mess with a newbie that mention internet and doesnt have an outboard lexicon.

but we do appreciate a question, so the answer is: the most likely format for us now is flac. but we will probably end up using several.

Nobody on here wants you to lose a load of money through a bad plan. Many people on here have tried things before to different levels of success. I work with people who start new businesses all the time, some work, some don't.

At the moment, if you came to a business meeting with me and presented that to us, we'd rip you up for the fun of it.

Anyhoo... I don't quite get it.

You have a composition studio and a recording room... but all you want to do is master and release music? By other artists? So why the composition studio, and recording room?

You want audiophile, but seem to have no control over the tracking nor mixing of a record, which both contribute more to the audiophilic qualities of a record far more than the mastering. Selling something in 24-bit 96k does not make it 'audiophile' quality alone.

Then you say you want to master stuff, but you have no experience in mastering. Mastering doesn't just mean 'add some EQ then compress it' - there's a bit more to it. It's not a skill you can learn overnight, and you shouldn't start offering it as a paid service until you are competent in it. I've got a qualification in Aeronautical Engineering - but have no intention of offering a new helicopter design to the Ministry Of Defence any time soon - or ever.

Then you want to release stuff. I don't see what relevance 100 gigs a year has to releasing something. Nor do I see how 5 albums on reputable labels helps (seeing that the label would have released it) - 5 independent records would impress me far more. Releasing something isn't as simple as chucking it on iTunes, and getting 1000 CDs pressed and printed. There's a bit more to that, too.

Marketing is a whole subject in itself. Do you have qualifications? Experience? Facebook and twitter doesn't count. There are marketing companies who do that and that alone, and have to employ a whole host of people, experts in their field. And you're trying to market music, which, having only mastered and 'released', you have no creative control over? How can you market something you have no creative control over? 'This album is really really good, so buy it! Honest' ?? Do you choose the music you release? or do the artists come to you and pay you as a service? If they choose you, are you paying royalties? Unless they're paying you as a service, I cannot see a way of making money. Releasing music you have no musical control of? Don't even bother, unless your income stream is independent of sales. And even if it is, don't expect return customers!

And this whole 'sound quality' thing?? Get over it. 95% of the music buying world probably don't give a pie if it's 16 or 24 bit. Whatever's cheaper. They buy music because they like the song, not because of how it sounds. Do you still see people flocking to buy Steely Dan records, purely because the production values of the latest Lady GaGa record are incomparable?

I read this plan and I see absolutely no evidence of an income stream whatsoever. You haven't even mentioned where the music is coming from!

The only way I can see 3 guys with a composition studio, a vocal room and a mix / master room coming together to make any kind of cash, is for you to make jingles for radio / TV and maybe some background music or whatever, and go down the licensing route. Because there sure as hell isn't a sell music to the joe public route at current!

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

rogers ls-88 monitors for front, rogers ls-66 for surround, paradigm dsp 3200 v2 subwoofer, i7 running cubase and wavelab, two 1tb HDs in RAID0, one 1tb HD as backup disk, oxford native plugins, arc calibration system, yamaha rx-v1900 surround amp. penguin spektrum analyser running on a seperate pentium machine. PreSonus FireStudio Mobile 10x6 interface.

what formats to make available?
what will people pay for? we think audiophiles will pay for higher quality, but which format? cubase uses 32-bit, we could dither to 24-bit and release some mixes in this format. we think this area will move fast, and want to be a part of this progress. as an example, the new oppo players can play 24-bit. Or is our setup not good enough for thinking audiophile music?

oh, and by the way, you wouldn't need to dither. The interface won't support 32-bit recording.

[Kikkomen]

ok, we are starting to get some interesting sentences in between the nonsense, great!

bigd: Are you saying that if we have some tracks converted into 32-bit, its pointless to work with 32-bit in cubase? u would drop 32-bit float, and work in 24-bit all the way, with this setup? which 32-bit interface to u suggest for use with cubase?

and btw, you misunderstood the plan. i will give you a hint: we make the music.

i would list our credentials and experience, but i really dont want respect on a forum that wants that to give respect. suffice to say that we have been involved in projects on both indie and major labels.

i think there is a reason for all the hostility. many of you probably feel threatened by the new media and new models and think people like us (meaning that want to use the net for distribution) are the enemy of the industry). so, instead of helping you look for ways to put us in the category of "has no clue of what it takes to make a real master, part of the overcompressed pop nonsense". of course we need to learn, but we actually care about sound and dynamics, much more so than others who push their music through new media.



thanks to aleatoric and scraggs, actually useful info .

[bryan k]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

Line 6 TonePort KB37 will be used to record mainly an el-guitar.

You lost me at this sentence. Any recording studio that uses Line6 to record electric guitars.......is not something i would want to got to. If i was a client of yours......I would walk into your studio....see your Line6 and chuckle a bit......and immediately walk out,.....

get some REAL amps in there......

[Kikkomen]

that line 6 is in the composing studio. but i get your point, and appreciate your comment. thanks.

[bryan k]

what is the point of this place? is it a recording/mix/mastering studio open for the public ($$)

or are you building this only for your own personal enjoyment and your own music?

[Kikkomen]

second option is correct. when the big studio is not used for mixing its used for composing.

[bryan k]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

second option is correct. when the big studio is not used for mixing its used for composing.

right, that i understand.....

BUT is this place open to the public for composing/mix/mastering services? meaning, can a person walk into this place and say "Hi, i need to record some songs and have them mixed/mastered, can i do that hear and how much will it cost me?"

Or......is this place not open to the public, meaning its only for yourself and your music only?

[Kikkomen]

in the beginning its not open to the public. we might take clients later on, but that would require a much bigger setup.

btw, if you needed to replace that line 6, what would you get?

[bryan k]

well, most musicians will bring their own gear, but you should have at least one back up amp in case theirs blows up or something happens...

for starters.....you cant go wrong with at least a Marshall head, score a good deal on a DSL 100. Thats a good workhorse backup amp for a studio. Snag a 2x12 cab for now.....maybe get a 4x12 Cab later when the client roster gets bigger....

[PraiseStudios]

Mod...Not sure why this is even in the mastering forum. Can you please move it to the correct forum as the mastering forum is becoming............

[Coyoteous]

Check out bandcamp.

From their FAQ: "Higher quality sources are supported: 24-bit and 32-bit, with sample rates up to 192kHz."

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

bigd: Are you saying that if we have some tracks converted into 32-bit, its pointless to work with 32-bit in cubase? u would drop 32-bit float, and work in 24-bit all the way, with this setup? which 32-bit interface to u suggest for use with cubase?

I'm not aware of any current interfaces (at least within your price range) that convert to 32-bit. Are you sure Cubase can even take that sample rate - or does it simply mean it runs in 32-bit. They are quite different.

and btw, you misunderstood the plan. i will give you a hint: we make the music.

Right... so you want to be a successful band, who are successful because they sell music in higher sample rates?

i would list our credentials and experience, but i really dont want respect on a forum that wants that to give respect. suffice to say that we have been involved in projects on both indie and major labels.

suffice to say, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever!

i think there is a reason for all the hostility. many of you probably feel threatened by the new media and new models and think people like us (meaning that want to use the net for distribution) are the enemy of the industry). so, instead of helping you look for ways to put us in the category of "has no clue of what it takes to make a real master, part of the overcompressed pop nonsense". of course we need to learn, but we actually care about sound and dynamics, much more so than others who push their music through new media.

OK, so we're all feeling really threatened right now by somebody whose business plan is to be like every other artist in the world, except sell their music in higher bit rates and bit depths.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by bryan k

You lost me at this sentence. Any recording studio that uses Line6 to record electric guitars.......is not something i would want to got to. If i was a client of yours......I would walk into your studio....see your Line6 and chuckle a bit......and immediately walk out,.....

get some REAL amps in there......

why? back up that suggestion.

guitar amp sims are a great way forward for small studios. With the DSL100 you are limited on tone to sounding like a Marshall DSL100.

With a program like Amplitube, you can get some very real emulations of guitar amps without the space requirement. The DSL100 is also a bad suggestion as to get any kind of tone out of it, you need to install extensive soundproofing or spend yet more money on a hot plate.

This is nothing to do with mastering, but you don't need an amp anymore mate! I've just done a record all with sim'd guitar and bass, and nobody's said a bad word about amps yet.

[Kikkomen]

well, bigd: this is why i made this thread, to learn more about things like 32-bit. i do know that there is a lack of 32-bit interfaces, hence my question to you.

internal 32-bit has its own values, independent on other things. but you really dont care do you, all you care about is putting this young newbie to the test and get some virtual confidence.

u troll me, i troll u back x10, if it serves my purpose. i know you guys have good info, you just dont want to share it in a normal way in a civilized conversation where one asks questions, you rather assume things based on stereotypes. do you know u are just using rhetorical means now? your arguments have no value, just playing with words.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

well, bigd: this is why i made this thread, to learn more about things like 32-bit. i do know that there is a lack of 32-bit interfaces, hence my question to you.

I don't know of any 32-bit interfaces. I use Prism 8XR ADAs, probably the best ADAs in the world, and even they don't...

internal 32-bit has its own values, independent on other things. but you really dont care do you, all you care about is putting this young newbie to the test and get some virtual confidence.

There is no such thing as 'internal 32-bit'. The audio files will be recorded at the sample rate set by the converters, the computer's capabilities have no effect on it whatsoever!

u troll me, i troll u back x10, if it serves my purpose. i know you guys have good info, you just dont want to share it in a normal way in a civilized conversation where one asks questions, you rather assume things based on stereotypes. do you know u are just using rhetorical means now? your arguments have no value, just playing with words.

It's not that though is it. You came on here wanting everyone to say 'wow what a great idea, I wish it was mine' but they didn't. For most people, seeing it torn up like this would make them hesitate before cash splashing - which is precisely why we give advice. But I know full well you'll go and spend the money and do it anyway. Fine, whatever - but at least stop pretending you want advice, not just attention.

[Kikkomen]

u misunderstood the plan, yet dont care.

u dont understand 32-bit float, yet dont care.

u make cheap rhetorical comments with no real value.

i seriously want advice, but not from people like you. i will make you a deal: leave me alone, and i will leave u alone. you are just too annoying to troll.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by Kikkomen

u misunderstood the plan, yet dont care.

Well then make me understand it! How can you expect advice if people don't understand what you're on about

u dont understand 32-bit float, yet dont care.

What? You made that up.

u make cheap rhetorical comments with no real value.

Well if all comments are rhetorical, why ask?

i seriously want advice,

well then, take all of it, not just the bits you wanted to hear in the first place.

[The Byre]

May I suggest that the OP reads this and reflects a little -

The Anosognosic’s Dilemma: Something’s Wrong but You’ll Never Know What It Is (Part 1) - Opinionator Blog - NYTimes.com